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[Xetykins]

The italicized bit is almost certainly not true given that there is a lord of Denerim. As for the rest of it, being the Arl/Teryn of Highever and Denerim (de facto) means that he's allowed to recruit soldiers from those territories. Which one might assume he's busily doing as soon as he can. This is to say nothing of the Amaranthine soldiers, who I'm pretty sure lost nobody at Ostagar. Add all that up, and you get a force Loghain wants to give his undivided attention to if he decides to destroy it at all. (Which I hope he was planning to eventually do.)

So lets say that its absolutely certain that the king does not own the denerim army because of it's lord. Well they kinda died too cuz the former lord of denerim, vaughn's father went and died with the king so as his army I suppose, as there is no reference of them anywhere in game.

[TEWR]

I wonder how things would have played out if the other Banns decided to just side with Loghain right from the start. It would no doubt have made things simpler for him, since there would be no civil war, and Howe would probably not be able to play the greasy opportunist through it all. Supplanting Howe while support is dodgy at best isn't a very good idea, even when a key ally is a deplorable a-hole.

 

Probably rather well, all told. Loghain had divided up the forces he had on his side to secure the border before he had tried to get the Landsmeet on his side, and even when the civil war erupted he was still able to kick the Bannorn's asses, because the Bannorn were too scattered and disunited. On the rare times a few nobles did work together, it didn't always work out and they still lost, and sometimes if they would win it was because Loghain wasn't out in the field. Even so, they ended up not having enough manpower to fight the Darkspawn that preyed upon their weakened lands.

 

So if the Bannorn had actually done the sensible thing and put petty politics aside to rally behind Loghain, Loghain would've been able to strike a blow at the Darkspawn and keep them relegated to the south. Of course, without Wardens, it's a battle of attrition he would lose eventually because the Darkspawn have unlimited numbers and require no supplies or food, but even so Loghain would be able to do a lot to them to at least keep Ferelden safer.

 

Further, it might also change how he approached the Dwarves and the Circle. Perhaps Wynne might've kept quiet upon hearing the news that the Bannorn rallied behind Loghain (she does say it's something she regrets doing). If the Circle had been able to help out, then the Darkspawn would've been in a serious heap of trouble. And if the Bannorn had rallied behind Loghain, perhaps Loghain wouldn't have sent Imrek as his ambassador, a man who puts ass in the term.

 

Though I do wonder why Imrek was even necessary when Ambassador Gainsley was there....

[dragonflight288]

 

 

Though I do wonder why Imrek was even necessary when Ambassador Gainsley was there....

 

He's only there before we got to Orzammar if we start the trial of crows in Denerim and get that quest. 

 

I think Imrek was supposed to be the first ambassador, and Gainsley was sent later. 

[TEWR]

He's only there before we got to Orzammar if we start the trial of crows in Denerim and get that quest. 

 

I think Imrek was supposed to be the first ambassador, and Gainsley was sent later. 

 

That's the only thing I can think of as well, that Gainsley came after the succession crisis was settled. But the game doesn't give you much insight into the nature of him. He's just an ally of Loghain's we kill because someone got pissed enough at him.

 

At least with the Kadan-Fe we can realize that Loghain was using a mercenary company to help out, while Paedan and Captain Chase were working for Howe. Paedan had been taking any Warden supporters and sending them to Howe, while Captain Chase kidnapped a noble's child to no doubt give him to Howe so that Howe had leverage over that noble (political leverage and so he could claim his lands, as I'm sure he'd have done with Alfstanna and Sighard through their brother/son respectively).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So lets say that its absolutely certain that the king does not own the denerim army because of it's lord. Well they kinda died too cuz the former lord of denerim, vaughn's father went and died with the king so as his army I suppose, as there is no reference of them anywhere in game.

Not all of them. There's still the ones who the CE kills in the Origin (and since the attack fails if you aren't playing through it yourself there's usually slightly more than the PC leaves) and the ones who arrest the CE in the Origin. Added to that is the fact that he can conscript from Denerim and Highever, and the fact that he owns one of the few armies that didn't lose anyone at Ostagar. And that's not getting into the amount of raw coin he gained from all of this and can use to attract trained soldiers from basically all over Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Not all of them. There's still the ones who the CE kills in the Origin (and since the attack fails if you aren't playing through it yourself there's usually slightly more than the PC leaves) and the ones who arrest the CE in the Origin. Added to that is the fact that he can conscript from Denerim and Highever, and the fact that he owns one of the few armies that didn't lose anyone at Ostagar. And that's not getting into the amount of raw coin he gained from all of this and can use to attract trained soldiers from basically all over Thedas.

 

Though we learn from Kylon that Howe recruits the criminals that need arresting. 

 

Howe has an army of violent criminals, and many allies among the nobility like Bann Esmerelle of Amaranthine. And has one of the strongest forces in Ferelden, as you said, because it never went to Ostagar. 

 

Howe is probably, in terms of military and economic might, one of the strongest people in Ferelden during the blight. 

[Persephone]

Howe should have been removed and replaced; the alternative is clearly shown, and is now Loghain's legacy to bear.

 

Except that this was not feasible or doable without provoking yet another war, given that Howe held the ENTIRE NORTH and the Arling Of Denerim by force. That is not how politics or warfare work, fairytale ideals have no place in them.

[Persephone]

I don't care about justice, I care about winning the war. Justice is subjective based upon the laws of the land. Loghain's (1) Turned much of the Bannorn against him and (2) Turned the Wardens against him, and both parties are required to win the war. If not for his actions, things would be better off. Getting rid of him gets rid of a lot of political complications and headache.

 

Technically he's only the regent, but in a Medieval state, from where do you draw your authority to rule? Military power. Anora has none. Loghain has all of it. He wants to rule Ferelden and for all intents and purposes, he does rule Ferelden. And he's not doing a particularly good job by causing a civil war in the middle of a Blight. That one is on him. What's to say that when the Blight is over, if he's spared, that he wouldn't turn on the Wardens again and try to seize power a second time? We don't have any hindsight in the first game, so there's not much to go on. He's no less a pretender than Alistair is, but at least Alistair's not constantly trying to cause problems.

 

I absolutely would prefer Alistair be king. His chivalry and selflessness may not make him a perfect king, but I doubt he'd be as keen to spill blood as Loghain. He also doesn't share his bed with someone like Arl Howe.

 

If you cared about winning the war, you would use every resource at your disposal. You do not. So I am not convinced.

 

Canon and political cunning disagree. Keeping him alive, esp. with Queen Anora in power (Married to Alistair or not) and the Warden as Chancellor creates poltical stability. The Bannorn continue to cause trouble whether he lives or dies. They would have rebelled either way.

Ferelden is not a European medieval kingdom. In Ferelden the Landsmeet empowers you to rule and the Landsmeet confirmed Anora as queen who appointed her father as regent. Easy as.

 

He is a terrible politician. But he did not cause that civil war. The Bannorn did. And they continue to be trouble even if he dies. The Bannorn would have rebelled either way. (Ever wonder why Teagan was not at Ostagar........)

Canon and logic both clearly state that he would not. And he does not. So OOC conspiracy theories will not convince me.

 

We may not have hindsight but we have common sense. (Or so you might hope)

He is not a pretender at all. He is the appointed regent of the lawful queen. Like he was in King Maric's time. Alistair is the illegitimate pretender who needs a coup d'etat, treason and murder to gain the throne. AND he will only not cause trouble as long as he gets what he wants. If he doesn't, he selfishly deserts Ferelden and all of Thedas in the jaws of the Archdemon because he didn't get his bloodlust sated. But that's A OKAY because poor bby blabla.

 

Said "Selflessness" (Which he doesn't have) and chivalry make him a horrible king. As DAI and DAII confirmed.

 

Funny story, given that he puts his blood lust above his duty as a Warden. And that Loghain is not very keen on killing.

 

He just dogs a long behind a Warden willing to commit a coup d'etat and mass murder (Haven)........look, I'm no fan of Howe's. But I attribute Howe's failings where they belong. To Howe.

[Persephone]

It's great to see this thread still alive.

 

Him and Meredith both are fantastic villains (Loghain moreso). Nothing in DAI lives up to it..sadly. That game is OK, but it works on a more childish level than the previous games. And all I have to do is point to Loghain to show the difference.

 

IMHO the variety of antagonists in DAI was very refreshing. We had the traditional antagonist in Cory but the multi faceted ones in Calpernia, Samson, Florianne, Alexius etc. I liked that, it felt more organic. Loghain is an amazing character but the way BioWare wrote him (With no understanding of warfare and politics) diminishes what he could have been.

[Elhanan]

Except that this was not feasible or doable without provoking yet another war, given that Howe held the ENTIRE NORTH and the Arling Of Denerim by force. That is not how politics or warfare work, fairytale ideals have no place in them.

Well, we know the results of not doing it this way, so I reckon arresting and imprisoning Howe and those responsible for the Cousland assault would not be any worse. Perhaps Nathaniel could have been invited to intervene to help dissuade loyalists. Will never know....

[Monica21]

Well, we know the results of not doing it this way, so I reckon arresting and imprisoning Howe and those responsible for the Cousland assault would not be any worse. Perhaps Nathaniel could have been invited to intervene to help dissuade loyalists. Will never know....

 

And, yet again, you've failed to tell us how you think this will work while still keeping his army and trade resources. Nate's in the Free Marches during the Blight, so no, you can't use him. In fact, using any Howe would be a poor solution if in fact his own father was responsible. Not only that, who do you want to take that territory? Or is your suggestion that Loghain have Gwaren, the regency and Highever?

 

Your desire to see justice done is commendable, but your inability to see the larger problems it would cause it problematic.

[sjsharp2011]

Thedian hint: When killing someone, best not select a spot heavy in spirits, lyrium, and holy ashes.

which pretty much means most of Thedas really

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Perhaps Nathaniel could have been invited to intervene to help dissuade loyalists.

Considering that he considers killing the Warden before Awakening, I doubt it.

[Elhanan]

Considering that he considers killing the Warden before Awakening, I doubt it.

Does not necessarily apply in that time line. If one could show publically that Dear Old Dad was as bad as Nathaniel already knew himself, then place him in a position to rectify his Father's crimes, things may have turned out differently for everyone.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Does not necessarily apply in that time line. If one could show publically that Dear Old Dad was as bad as Nathaniel already knew himself, then place him in a position to rectify his Father's crimes, things may have turned out differently for everyone.

Though Howe will first need to be taken down, of course. That's always been the hard part. And of course we can't be sure Nathaniel will serve as an acceptable replacement to Rendon as far as all Rendon's soldiers are concerned, at least under these circumstances; Thomas seems to have gained control over them, but only because he hadn't betrayed Rendon. And Esmerelle will actively attempt to kill Nathaniel if he's around for the quest "And You, Esmerelle?"

[Monica21]

Does not necessarily apply in that time line. If one could show publically that Dear Old Dad was as bad as Nathaniel already knew himself, then place him in a position to rectify his Father's crimes, things may have turned out differently for everyone.

 

Okay, fine. You believe this would help Loghain administer justice, at least in your eyes and would make him "look better" to you. But how does this supposed solution help him against either the darkspawn or the banns?

[Elhanan]

Though Howe will first need to be taken down, of course. That's always been the hard part. And of course we can't be sure Nathaniel will serve as an acceptable replacement to Rendon as far as all Rendon's soldiers are concerned, at least under these circumstances; Thomas seems to have gained control over them, but only because he hadn't betrayed Rendon. And Esmerelle will actively attempt to kill Nathaniel if he's around for the quest "And You, Esmerelle?"

Loghain could use his own troops to make the arrests. As for later consequences and results, it is all speculative, butwould likely alter the events seen in the game.

[TEWR]

IMHO the variety of antagonists in DAI was very refreshing. We had the traditional antagonist in Cory but the multi faceted ones in Calpernia, Samson, Florianne, Alexius etc. I liked that, it felt more organic. Loghain is an amazing character but the way BioWare wrote him (With no understanding of warfare and politics) diminishes what he could have been.

 

I do enjoy Calpernia, Samson, and Alexius. Corypheus was great because even as a "traditional" antagonist he still has a lot of redeeming qualities and/or hidden depths to his character, as opposed to simply being purebred evil.

 

Spoiler

That said I do feel Bioware was unable to give these characters their proper due and only gave them the bare minimum, and Bioware still showed a lack of understanding on warfare and politics

 

(I put that in spoilers for you Persephone. It's not a spoiler but rather me being critical of DAI)

 

Does not necessarily apply in that time line. If one could show publically that Dear Old Dad was as bad as Nathaniel already knew himself, then place him in a position to rectify his Father's crimes, things may have turned out differently for everyone.

 

Nathaniel didn't know his father was bad. That was Delilah. What Nate knew was that his father was branded a traitor and a horrible person but he didn't know what his father did, how bad those things were, or if they were even true. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain could use his own troops to make the arrests. As for later consequences and results, it is all speculative, butwould likely alter the events seen in the game.

Loghain sending troops into Amaranthine is exactly what we're arguing he shouldn't do. The whole point of our argument is that Loghain could not afford to antagonize Howe at the moment due to the Bannorn already perceiving itself as antagonized, and the Godzilla Threshold threat in the south that should motivate everyone to stand behind Loghain almost no matter what he does but clearly isn't doing so. The country is already more divided than it can afford, so how is doing this now at all helpful?

[Monica21]

Loghain could use his own troops to make the arrests. As for later consequences and results, it is all speculative, butwould likely alter the events seen in the game.

Alter them how? And again, how would this help against the darkspawn or the banns?

[Tremere]

Words are so easily said. Its easy to say the words but its a totally different thing to actually act according to those words. Some people say the words just for show. Alistair has been a warden for three months barely if I remember right. He propably hasnt fought much darkspawn or done any other warden stuff so the reality hasnt been fully realized. Alistair in DA:I is a different person. He is less idealistic about the wardens.

 

With all this said, I dont believe in the wardens "ends justify the means" way of thinking. That attitude has more than once caused pretty bad things. In "the last flight" that attitude pretty much cost them the griffons. After everything that has happened, they really need to think again their actions and attitudes.

 

I fail to see how Alistair wanting Loghain dead is childish. Loghain has tried to KILL you all this time, committed bad things and made your life very difficult. You have to humiliate him and kick his ass before he finally starts to listen. You make it sound like Alistair has absolutely no real justified reasons to want Loghain dead.

He has lines he wont cross. My warden has lines he wont cross and drinking some darkspawn blood didnt change that. If the roles were reversed and it was Howe in loghain´s place with the same situation, damn right would my warden be furious. Difference would be that he would just kill Howe and be done with it. I dare say we all have lines we wont cross no matter what.

 

And now propably comes the moment when I take cover in a bunker...

 

Hmph... Don't worry. I have your back.

 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

With all this said, I dont believe in the wardens "ends justify the means" way of thinking. That attitude has more than once caused pretty bad things. In "the last flight" that attitude pretty much cost them the griffons.

But did the world end?

[Elhanan]

I do enjoy Calpernia, Samson, and Alexius. Corypheus was great because even as a "traditional" antagonist he still has a lot of redeeming qualities and/or hidden depths to his character, as opposed to simply being purebred evil.
 

Spoiler

That said I do feel Bioware was unable to give these characters their proper due and only gave them the bare minimum, and Bioware still showed a lack of understanding on warfare and politics

 
(I put that in spoilers for you Persephone. It's not a spoiler but rather me being critical of DAI)
 
 
Nathaniel didn't know his father was bad. That was Delilah. What Nate knew was that his father was branded a traitor and a horrible person but he didn't know what his father did, how bad those things were, or if they were even true.

Not what I meant. Nathaniel knew of the private abuses of his Father on his family; not the crimes.

[Elhanan]

Loghain sending troops into Amaranthine is exactly what we're arguing he shouldn't do. The whole point of our argument is that Loghain could not afford to antagonize Howe at the moment due to the Bannorn already perceiving itself as antagonized, and the Godzilla Threshold threat in the south that should motivate everyone to stand behind Loghain almost no matter what he does but clearly isn't doing so. The country is already more divided than it can afford, so how is doing this now at all helpful?

Not Amaranthine; summon Howe to Denerim to 'accept' the role of Arl, or some other sim ploy.