3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not Amaranthine; summon Howe to Denerim to 'accept' the role of Arl, or some other sim ploy.

Clever. That handles the problem of armed resistance from Rendon himself*, but Howe's own men would want blood. Nathaniel or Thomas could persuade some of them that it was necessary if they were themselves persuaded that it was, but there would still be problems even so; Esemerelle has every reason not to make waves in such a situation, but that was true in Awakening's canon story too, and Nathaniel backing the Warden doesn't stop her. That's not a reason not to do this (in fact I agree that killing Howe has to be done), but it's a reason to save it for when the country isn't going to hell in two other ways simultaneously.

 

*Apart from the fact that he would not go gently in the ambush, but you can overcome that with a good ambush and Templar support to neutralize the mage bodyguards he'd probably have.

[TEWR]

To be honest the best thing that could've been done to deal with Howe I feel is Loghain going to Anora for political advice, where she advises him to continue dealing with Howe but bring news of whatever he wants to do/says/does to her, while she ends up compiling **** against him -- that way, when the Blight's over, he can be dealt with appropriately and executed after he's served his use.

 

Something along those lines anyway. Had it fleshed out more months ago in my mind.

[Elhanan]

Clever. That handles the problem of armed resistance from Rendon himself*, but Howe's own men would want blood. Nathaniel or Thomas could persuade some of them that it was necessary if they were themselves persuaded that it was, but there would still be problems even so; Esemerelle has every reason not to make waves in such a situation, but that was true in Awakening's canon story too, and Nathaniel backing the Warden doesn't stop her. That's not a reason not to do this (in fact I agree that killing Howe has to be done), but it's a reason to save it for when the country isn't going to hell in two other ways simultaneously.
 
*Apart from the fact that he would not go gently in the ambush, but you can overcome that with a good ambush and Templar support to neutralize the mage bodyguards he'd probably have.

The majority of Howe's troops are likely not savage thugs, and likely would not stick up for the man once his crimes are made publically. The others could be taken like Howe, by being led to some location for some enticing reason and surrounded like the rebel Bannorn were in the actual time-line.

But all is speculative; only suggestions at alternatives of what did occur. By allowing Howe to live sullies Loghain and his reputation, taints his carreer, and places added guilt on his own personal crimes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The majority of Howe's troops are likely not savage thugs, and likely would not stick up for the man once his crimes are made publically. The others could be taken like Howe, by being led to some location for some enticing reason and surrounded like the rebel Bannorn were in the actual time-line.

But all is speculative; only suggestions at alternatives of what did occur. By allowing Howe to live sullies Loghain and his reputation, taints his carreer, and places added guilt on his own personal crimes.

A large number of Howe's nobles seem to be savage thugs. Liza Packton, Esmerelle, Temmerly, and whoever that noble who apparently insults an Orlesian WC is. (I read this on the wiki rather than experiencing it in-game since I haven't even had a chance to get all the Wardens I've beaten Origins with through Awakening.) Even assuming that you manage to kill all of them plus Howe with no trouble (and unless you get all of them at once the last few are going to be freaking paranoid) that's a lot of empty places in the chain of command. Anora can handle that in time of peace at her leisure. But it's not a time of peace right now. And if even one escapes there's a problem. Again, in a time of peace that's not insurmountable, but that's really not the kind of headache you want to deal with right now.

[Persephone]

To be honest the best thing that could've been done to deal with Howe I feel is Loghain going to Anora for political advice, where she advises him to continue dealing with Howe but bring news of whatever he wants to do/says/does to her, while she ends up compiling **** against him -- that way, when the Blight's over, he can be dealt with appropriately and executed after he's served his use.

 

Something along those lines anyway. Had it fleshed out more months ago in my mind.

 

Agreed. He should have sought Anora's help and they could've played Howe, giving him enough rope to hang himself with. But then again, Loghain is no politician, scheming and plotting aren't his style. Had he been, he would have been far harder to beat into submission. (And then he would have reached so much more of his potential)

[TEWR]

It always really bothered me that Esmerelle, Temmerly, etc. didn't wage a military campaign against the Warden-Commander. Esmerelle is the Bann of Amaranthine City. She could've done a lot of damage to us by that alone, but the other banns also have troops under their authority.

 

If I wasn't at work, I could give a lot more detail to what I wish would've happened, and did happen in my DN's world-state (a post for my thread in the DAI section I suppose).

[Elhanan]

A large number of Howe's nobles seem to be savage thugs. Liza Packton, Esmerelle, Temmerly, and whoever that noble who apparently insults an Orlesian WC is. (I read this on the wiki rather than experiencing it in-game since I haven't even had a chance to get all the Wardens I've beaten Origins with through Awakening.) Even assuming that you manage to kill all of them plus Howe with no trouble (and unless you get all of them at once the last few are going to be freaking paranoid) that's a lot of empty places in the chain of command. Anora can handle that in time of peace at her leisure. But it's not a time of peace right now. And if even one escapes there's a problem. Again, in a time of peace that's not insurmountable, but that's really not the kind of headache you want to deal with right now.

One may send for Howe and entourage for a trap in one location, and send remaining troops to another at about the same time. Then those left in Amaranthine can be freaked, but it ain't paranoia if one is out to get them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

One may send for Howe and entourage for a trap in one location, and send remaining troops to another at about the same time. Then those left in Amaranthine can be freaked, but it ain't paranoia if one is out to get them.

Point is: what happens if they act on it?

[Monica21]

One may send for Howe and entourage for a trap in one location, and send remaining troops to another at about the same time. Then those left in Amaranthine can be freaked, but it ain't paranoia if one is out to get them.

 

I don't even know what you're arguing for anymore. You wanted Howe taken out sooner, but you have yet to address the implications of actually doing so. So Howe falls for a trap, but then what? Seriously, then what? Then Loghain has Gwaren, Amaranthine, Denerim, and Highever. As a player who already lacks faith in Loghain and kills him every Landsmeet, all this would do is compound his (in your eyes) power-hungry persona. You've yet to explain how this action will help fight the darkspawn or help fight the civil war.

 

Taking out Howe just to take him is, in this instance, foolish and ill-timed.

[TEWR]

The main problem is that saying Loghain should've removed Howe so soon carries with it far more negative consequences then it does positive. Aside from the military and economic considerations already brought up in that he controls the northern coast of Ferelden -- specifically the Pilgrim's Path, a vital trade route between Denerim and Amaranthine -- there's also how at this point there's no evidence of him doing any wrongdoing.

 

Oh, make no mistake, he has done wrong. And everyone knows it. But no one has any proof of it. There are only rumors and gossip about his part in the Cousland Massacre (although I personally found Howe's attack to be one of the most boneheaded moves he could've done) and although his rise to a position of such import is considered questionable, barring a Human Noble's testimony there's nothing to support it. And even then, a HN is considered to have suspect word because Howe has been spreading word around that the Couslands were traitors to Ferelden (which Howe honestly seems to believe, given that Bryce went to Orlais and Fergus is married to an "Antivan ******" as he put it).

 

Howe has made it a point to cover his tracks as best as he can so that no one can sufficiently challenge his version of events. Without a strong case to be made against him and support the decision, removing him does what Monica21 just said: it compounds and adds to his power-hungry image and ends up alienating more people from his aid (those loyal to Howe, those rebelling in the Bannorn, those who wish for more reason to take advantage of the vacuum, etc.)

 

So what would it look like if Loghain was to just remove one of his most important allies, slimeball that the man is, with nothing to really explain why? A bad thing, that's what.

 

Without Howe having enough rope to hang himself with, any discussion centered on how Howe should've been removed centers on hindsight. Should Howe have been removed? Yes. But let's not kid ourselves in thinking it'd be an easy to do thing that could be pulled off without a hitch.

[TEWR]

Agreed. He should have sought Anora's help and they could've played Howe, giving him enough rope to hang himself with. But then again, Loghain is no politician, scheming and plotting aren't his style. Had he been, he would have been far harder to beat into submission. (And then he would have reached so much more of his potential)

 

You could probably do something with that idea for your Rhia-verse, Persephone. I know I'm gonna try and flesh it out more for my 'verse.

 

Maybe your OC sends dead-drops to Anora through Erlina? I'm sure they've met a few times at least prior to the events of the game.

 

Some sort of covert means for her to have worked with Anora to cement how they were working together to get ready for the final masterstroke move, rather then just talking about the alliance when it's convenient for the plot in the base game. 

 

obviously not my call on what goes down in your universe though haha.

[Elhanan]

Point is: what happens if they act on it?

If you mean the Amaranthine nobles that are besieged by the Darkspawn, I am guessing each will have to prioritize what is important to them. But that is to played in DAA: the Revised Edition.

[Persephone]

You could probably do something with that idea for your Rhia-verse, Persephone. I know I'm gonna try and flesh it out more for my 'verse.

 

Maybe your OC sends dead-drops to Anora through Erlina? I'm sure they've met a few times at least prior to the events of the game.

 

Some sort of covert means for her to have worked with Anora to cement how they were working together to get ready for the final masterstroke move, rather then just talking about the alliance when it's convenient for the plot in the base game. 

 

obviously not my call on what goes down in your universe though haha.

 

Oh, that's definitely part of the plan because Rhia, having been Anora's maid of honor and lady in waiting for some time, has the means to contact her through Erlina and otherwise. (It's how she circumvents working with Eamon whom she doesn't trust whatsoever)

 

I'm still miffed that a Cousland!Warden is like a nobody to the nobility. They never met their peers, or the king or anyone. Because why? It makes no sense.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you mean the Amaranthine nobles that are besieged by the Darkspawn, I am guessing each will have to prioritize what is important to them. But that is to played in DAA: the Revised Edition.

Those priorities seem to be revenge first, reason second even with the darkspawn threat. The country can weather having to put them down if there is no darkspawn threat and if there is no Bannorn rebellion, but it's foolish to attempt it under the circumstances Loghain is facing. Most of the thread has been pounding on that all day, and I don't think you've adequately answered it.

[Monica21]

I'm still miffed that a Cousland!Warden is like a nobody to the nobility. They never met their peers, or the king or anyone. Because why? It makes no sense.

 

Cailan does recognize you when you get to Ostagar. He says something like, "You are Bryce's youngest, are you not?" And other nobles mention that they're sorry about your family just before the Landsmeet if you talk to them in the Gnawed Noble Tavern.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Cailan does recognize you when you get to Ostagar. He says something like, "You are Bryce's youngest, are you not?" And other nobles mention that they're sorry about your family just before the Landsmeet if you talk to them in the Gnawed Noble Tavern.

Given that they can probably all tell you exactly how you're related to them just off the tops of their heads (if I properly understand how noble classes in this kind of setting work) I can hardly blame Persephone for being disappointed in them for not offering more, though.

[Elhanan]

Those priorities seem to be revenge first, reason second even with the darkspawn threat. The country can weather having to put them down if there is no darkspawn threat and if there is no Bannorn rebellion, but it's foolish to attempt it under the circumstances Loghain is facing. Most of the thread has been pounding on that all day, and I don't think you've adequately answered it.

Because I believe any of these hypothetical repercussions would be better than the crimes committed in the actual game.

[TEWR]

Oh, that's definitely part of the plan because Rhia, having been Anora's maid of honor and lady in waiting for some time, has the means to contact her through Erlina and otherwise. (It's how she circumvents working with Eamon whom she doesn't trust whatsoever)

 

I'm still miffed that a Cousland!Warden is like a nobody to the nobility. They never met their peers, or the king or anyone. Because why? It makes no sense.

 

Agreed. It's not even so much that it's that they never met these people. They've met at least a few times, but the fact that it's casually... dismissed just as soon as it's addressed. They'll recognize us, or at least faintly remember us, but one would imagine nobility would have their children interacting with other nobility at the Landsmeet each year, if nothing else.

 

Though what was the purpose of lady-in-waiting, historically? I've been thinking of having Amalia Cousland as that for a while but I don't know the specifics of it. Certainly Damaeus and Amalia both grew up and hung out with young Cailan and Anora in the various places of interest (Denerim, Highever, Gwaren) and so they're very familiar with one another.

 

I think it's funny that Loghain is like "I know you" and you can be like "I've never been out of Highever" and he's like "nevertheless I never forget a face." and points out who you are. So we at least know Loghain has gone to Highever (which only to me furthers my belief that he would gain more from Bryce being alive. They might butt heads on domestic policy and international policy regarding Orlais but I feel he would certainly consider Bryce a good man whom he respected and could rely upon).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because I believe any of these hypothetical repercussions would be better than the crimes committed in the actual game.

I don't believe so. The whole point of the Landsmeet arc is that the Civil War has to end and has to end in a way that costs as little blood as possible because it's destroying Ferelden's chances to stand against the Blight. Eamon even says that if this is not an option he will bend the knee to Loghain because the country needs less Civil War. And you're saying that Loghain should have caused there to be more of it?

[Monica21]

Given that they can probably all tell exactly how you're related to them just off the tops of their heads (if I properly understand how noble classes in this kind of setting work) I can hardly blame Persephone for being disappointed in them for not offering more, though.

 

Well, true, but at that point you've been a Warden almost a year and have had little to no interaction with nobility beyond Redcliffe. Also, you're a Warden so you're not in a position to do anything about reclaiming Highever because it's not yours anymore. Unless I'm missing the point of this. Which I very likely am.

 

Agreed. It's not even so much that it's that they never met these people. They've met at least a few times, but the fact that it's casually... dismissed just as soon as it's addressed. They'll recognize us, or at least faintly remember us, but one would imagine nobility would have their children interacting with other nobility at the Landsmeet each year, if nothing else.

 

Though what was the purpose of lady-in-waiting, historically? I've been thinking of having Amalia Cousland as that for a while but I don't know the specifics of it. Certainly Damaeus and Amalia both grew up and hung out with young Cailan and Anora in the various places of interest (Denerim, Highever, Gwaren) and so they're very familiar with one another.

 

I think it's funny that Loghain is like "I know you" and you can be like "I've never been out of Highever" and he's like "nevertheless I never forget a face." and points out who you are. So we at least know Loghain has gone to Highever (which only to me furthers my belief that he would gain more from Bryce being alive. They might butt heads on domestic policy and international policy regarding Orlais but I feel he would certainly consider Bryce a good man whom he respected and could rely upon).

 

I'm not sure if I headcanon'd this or read it in a fic or if it's actually in-game somewhere, but for some reason I thought that Maric's memorial was held at Highever. Or something to do with him, which would certainly put Loghain in a position to have met a Cousland Warden. I'm sure there would have been other reasons for Loghain to visit Highever though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, true, but at that point you've been a Warden almost a year and have had little to no interaction with nobility beyond Redcliffe. Also, you're a Warden so you're not in a position to do anything about reclaiming Highever because it's not yours anymore. Unless I'm missing the point of this. Which I very likely am.

The point, as I understand it, is that you're probably related some of these people. They should be ordering the waitresses to pull up more chairs and offering you invitations to lunch. At least.

[Elhanan]

I don't believe so. The whole point of the Landsmeet arc is that the Civil War has to end and has to end in a way that costs as little blood as possible because it's destroying Ferelden's chances to stand against the Blight. Eamon even says that if this is not an option he will bend the knee to Loghain because the country needs less Civil War. And you're saying that Loghain should have caused there to be more of it?

It is possible that if Loghain had united against the remaining forces of Howe, it would be better than what did occur. Much prefer that option over allowing the snake to murder and torture those as he did in the game.

[Monica21]

The point, as I understand it, is that you're probably related some of these people. They should be ordering the waitresses to pull up more chairs and offering you invitations to lunch. At least.

 

Ehhhh.... I guess I just don't buy into that at that point in the game. Like I said, it's been a year, you're muddy and you've been on the road and have Maker knows who tramping into a tavern with you. It's a wonder that you're recognizable, but your family basically doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for many months, at least as far as you and those nobles know. And we know how petty and ridiculous Ferelden nobles can be.

 

edited to add: Alfstanna's worried about her brother and Arl Wulff lost his own lands to the darkspawn. They're not really positioned to care about you, is I guess what I'm saying. The fact that they acknowledge the Couslands is about all I'd expect.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 mars 2015 - 10:39 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is possible that if Loghain had united against the remaining forces of Howe, it would be better than what did occur. Much prefer that option over allowing the snake to murder and torture those as he did in the game.

My cost/benefit analysis says Ferelden wouldn't have even broken even handling Howe that way, as I have previously explained. I'm still not sure of the details of your cost/benefit analysis to the contrary. Is it possible for you to go into more detail?

[Elhanan]

My cost/benefit analysis says Ferelden wouldn't have even broken even handling Howe that way, as I have previously explained. I'm still not sure of the details of your cost/benefit analysis to the contrary. Is it possible for you to go into more detail?

My head canon says it will all be fine, as the Warden and followers intervene as allies with Loghain, as his actions now speak towards what is truly best for Ferelden.

My cost/ benefit analysis was eaten by Dog....