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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

My cost/ benefit analysis was eaten by Dog....

Rewrite it. I can wait. I don't need it by Monday at midnight or anything. I'm not a teacher.

[TEWR]

I'm not sure if I headcanon'd this or read it in a fic or if it's actually in-game somewhere, but for some reason I thought that Maric's memorial was held at Highever. Or something to do with him, which would certainly put Loghain in a position to have met a Cousland Warden. I'm sure there would have been other reasons for Loghain to visit Highever though.

 

 

I vaguely recall that as well, but it wasn't his funeral service. That was held at the Denerim Chantry. But I do think there was something Highever related.

[Monica21]

I vaguely recall that as well, but it wasn't his funeral service. That was held at the Denerim Chantry. But I do think there was something Highever related.

Did he sail from Highever? And are you thinking it was something around the time he was lost at sea?

[Johnsen1972]

Why decide?`Ive got several playthroughs and I enjoyed having Loghain with me in one of my playthroughs. He was a great antagonist in DAO and he is still a great character in DAI.

 

[TEWR]

Dear god what did they do to Loghain and Anora and basically everyone in that video.....

 

Did he sail from Highever? And are you thinking it was something around the time he was lost at sea? 

 

 

I don't think it was ever stated where he sailed from, and I can't say I remember when it might have taken place. 

[dragonflight288]

It is possible that if Loghain had united against the remaining forces of Howe, it would be better than what did occur. Much prefer that option over allowing the snake to murder and torture those as he did in the game.

 How are you planning to accomplish that when the bannorn are already gathering troops to attack Loghain, whetherr for idealism or taking advantage of the power vacuum and Howe being one of Loghain's strongest supporters with control over the entire northern coasts, one of the most important trade cities and routes, and one of the largest armed forces in the country since he and his men weren't at Ostagar?

[Elhanan]

How are you planning to accomplish that when the bannorn are already gathering troops to attack Loghain, whetherr for idealism or taking advantage of the power vacuum and Howe being one of Loghain's strongest supporters with control over the entire northern coasts, one of the most important trade cities and routes, and one of the largest armed forces in the country since he and his men weren't at Ostagar?

If Loghain were take care of Howe right after Ostegar, this may have gone a long way to appease the Bannorn; unknown. But I would go with it.

[dragonflight288]

If Loghain were take care of Howe right after Ostegar, this may have gone a long way to appease the Bannorn; unknown. But I would go with it.

 

Based on what evidence?

 

EDIT: And by that, I mean what evidence would you/Loghain have to go after Howe that doesn't involve metagaming? And would that evidence be enough to unite Ferelden to attack one of the most powerful nobles in the middle of a blight, or as pretty much all the nobles assume, a very, VERY large Darkspawn incursion. 

[Elhanan]

Based on what evidence?
 
EDIT: And by that, I mean what evidence would you/Loghain have to go after Howe that doesn't involve metagaming? And would that evidence be enough to unite Ferelden to attack one of the most powerful nobles in the middle of a blight, or as pretty much all the nobles assume, a very, VERY large Darkspawn incursion.

The Human Noble testifies to the King, which is then heard by Loghain. Howe hires the Crows. Etc. While some crimes are possibly hidden from Loghain, many crimes aren't, and a chance to take an active role against such a criminal is wasted.

[Monica21]

The Human Noble testifies to the King, which is then heard by Loghain. Howe hires the Crows. Etc. While some crimes are possibly hidden from Loghain, many crimes aren't, and a chance to take an active role against such a criminal is wasted.

Again, this won't work. It would put even more power in Loghain's hands and give people even more reason to mistrust him.

In addition, it would only work with one of the six origin stories. Purely from a mechanics perspective there's no reason to do what would amount to changing the entire game for just the human noble.

But you still want Howe gone, I presume? So what's your backup plan for non-humans?

[Thermopylae]

As amusing as Alistar was, It bugged me that Alistar would not go through with the marriage to Leonora if Loghain was allowed to live, at the time I found it a petulant immature response, so I kept Loghain around as a military asset. Although DAO protagonists pretty much characterise Loghain as a bad guy, it seemed sensible keep him as an asset as the Blight was the most pertinent enemy and high casualties were expected. DAI may retcon a bit and makes the role Loghain plays in the narrative less absolutely bad by having useful and "nice" support personell who were on the side of Loghain during the civil war. Sort of miss Alistar but there are other protagonists who have similar roles within the group, with regards to dynamics and narrative. I guess.

[Monica21]

As amusing as Alistar was, It bugged me that Alistar would not go through with the marriage to Leonora if Loghain was allowed to live, at the time I found it a petulant immature response, so I kept Loghain around as a military asset. Although DAO protagonists pretty much characterise Loghain as a bad guy, it seemed sensible keep him as an asset as the Blight was the most pertinent enemy and high casualties were expected. DAI may retcon a bit and makes the role Loghain plays in the narrative less absolutely bad by having useful and "nice" support personell who were on the side of Loghain during the civil war. Sort of miss Alistar but there are other protagonists who have similar roles within the group, with regards to dynamics and narrative. I guess.

 

Alistair will still go through with the marriage to Anora, but you may have to get both of them to agree on it before the Landsmeet. My canon Warden always spares Loghain and marries Alistair to Anora.

 

I'm wondering if you're thinking of Alistair leaving the Wardens if you spare Loghain. There's no way to prevent that.

[dragonflight288]

The Human Noble testifies to the King, which is then heard by Loghain. Howe hires the Crows. Etc. While some crimes are possibly hidden from Loghain, many crimes aren't, and a chance to take an active role against such a criminal is wasted.

 

The human noble only works for one of the six origin stories, so you have a 5/6 chance of failing on that count. And Howe doesn't hire the Crows until the war had already started and people were attacking Loghain so that doesn't count as evidence to be used immediately after Ostagar. 

 

And even if the bannorn took a human noble's word and united to attack Howe, what guarantee would you have that the bannorn wouldn't use Howe's demise as a way to increase the in-fighting over the power vacuum left with not only Cailan's death, but one of the most profitable arlings of Amaranthine or Teynir's of Highever? We are talking about the same group of people who'll start wars with each other over trees. 

[Elhanan]

Removing Howe is the priority for myself; not what, where, and when.

And as the Cousland massacre occurs in all timelines, Howe's involvement would be rumored in all of them, though only known in one. This crime, plus the various others that are committed along the way should alert Loghain that something needs to be done, as soon as possible. Instead, we get the results told in the game; not good and insured of a ruined rep for the Regent.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Removing Howe is the priority for myself; not what, where, and when.

Your priority is supposed to be removing the darkspawn. In case you missed this, they are a serious enough threat that Eamon openly weighs the option of surrendering to the man who Eamon knows poisoned him and suspects of having deliberately compassed the death of his nephew. There is basically no human potential ally who should be off the table right now. (Mind you Loghain doesn't understand this perfectly either, but I think my point stands.)

[Elhanan]

Your priority is supposed to be removing the darkspawn. In case you missed this, they are a serious enough threat that Eamon openly weighs the option of surrendering to the man who Eamon knows poisoned him and suspects of having deliberately compassed the death of his nephew. There is basically no human potential ally who should be off the table right now. (Mind you Loghain doesn't understand this perfectly either, but I think my point stands.)

A priority; not the priority. But as it is proven that leaving him around is not exactly the best thing to do for so many, removing and replacing him at any time seems like something that may yield better results.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A priority; not the priority. But as it is proven that leaving him around is not exactly the best thing to do for so many, removing and replacing him at any time seems like something that may yield better results.

No, this really is the priority. Rendon is a threat, but his endgame will at worst be a despotic regime where he's King* Of Ferelden. The darkspawn are actually trying to destroy it, and if Ferelden doesn't get itself together they have a good chance of succeeding. Rendon Howe needs to die, but effort, blood, time, and coin spent killing him isn't being spent killing the darkspawn and even if he wins it's better than the darkspawn winning. Once the darkspawn are all dead, that's less of an issue.

 

*Or Viceroy, if TEWR is right about him eventually selling the country out to Orlais for more power despite him presumably hating their guts after his boyhood trauma at White River.

[Elhanan]

No, this really is the priority. Rendon is a threat, but his endgame will at worst be a despotic regime where he's King* Of Ferelden. The darkspawn are actually trying to destroy it, and if Ferelden doesn't get itself together they have a good chance of succeeding. Rendon Howe needs to die, but effort, blood, time, and coin spent killing him isn't being spent killing the darkspawn and even if he wins it's better than the darkspawn winning. Once the darkspawn are all dead, that's less of an issue.
 
*Or Viceroy, if TEWR is right about him eventually selling the country out to Orlais for more power despite him presumably hating their guts after his boyhood trauma at White River.

The Darkspawn are the priority; agreed, but Howe is also a priority. I contend the first could have been aided greatly by replacing the second.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Darkspawn are the priority; agreed, but Howe is also a priority. I contend the first could have been aided greatly by replacing the second.

If it could have been done without costing more than it gained, yes it would have. I contend that that's not the case.

[dragonflight288]

And we have yet to see or hear of a way to do it that wouldn't hurt Ferelden more in the long run or make the country more prepared to fight the blight. 

[Elhanan]

And we have yet to see or hear of a way to do it that wouldn't hurt Ferelden more in the long run or make the country more prepared to fight the blight.

Don't need to; tis only speculation since it did not occur, but is a possible option that could have happened as suggested.

In the game, Howe is left in power, given more power, and further taints Loghain and his reputation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Don't need to; tis only speculation since it did not occur, but is a possible option that could have happened as suggested.

In the game, Howe is left in power, given more power, and further taints Loghain and his reputation.

This speculation seems to me to ignore the political realities of this situation. Speculation that isn't backed up by careful consideration of the political climate of Ferelden seems to me to be even more pointless.

[dragonflight288]

Elhanan, I applaud your idealism, but ideals without any grounding in reality can be just as problematic as having no ideals at all. 

 

Is it possible to remove Howe? Yes. 

 

Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

 

Is it possible to do it while also strengthening Ferelden, or at least not weakening it so that they can fight the darkspawn without metagaming?

 

......Not really. Not without giving him enough rope to hang himself with. 

 

In order to do so, you have to address the fact that Howe has one of the largest armed forces in the country, one of the most prosperous trade cities in the country, control of all the northern coasts, and a great deal of banns underneath him who support him like Esmerelle. 

 

And you would also have to rely on the nobility to unite and practice common sense and appropriately prioritize a threat like the darkspawn, something they have little to no track record of doing consistently, like Esmerelle and company choosing revenge for Howe's death over stability in the region or defeating the darkspawn who are following the Architect or the Mother in the area, or the other nobles who willingly start wars with each other over trees. 

 

Realistically, Loghain's hands were tied and he couldn't do anything about Howe. Not with the civil war AND the darkspawn, not to mention Howe being one of his greatest and most powerful supporters. 

 

It's just not feasible. 

[Elhanan]

Nope; no need to supply planning for a hypothetical option that could have been an alternative for Loghain. Problematic? Certainly, but not as bad as the events that actually occurred in game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nope; no need to supply planning for a hypothetical option that could have been an alternative for Loghain. Problematic? Certainly, but not as bad as the events that actually occurred in game.

... what?