3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Althix]

@ Jaison1986. That depends on the value. If Alistair would have a greater value, Warden would sacrifice himself. In case of Loghain it would be his redemption.

[Cobra's_back]

Those associated soldiers were Orlesian chevaliers who garrisoned Ferelden once before. I can't blame Loghain for not letting them in.

 

It is called being paranoid. I would expect him to be a General and know when to take the help or get another plan that will work. Complete lack of respect for his command doesn't get him a pass with me or any other military. 

[Akrabra]

Kinda feel like the Warden is above Justice simply because the world is under an enormous pressure and you are the only one that can save it. Which pretty much means people have to put up with you, that is why playing a dick warden works in this game, but on to Loghain. If Riordan had taken the time to ask the Warden and Alistair if they knew about the sacrifice it is to kill an Archdemon, maybe even Alistair could see that letting Loghain take the finalblow was justice done and not just let him bleed out on the landsmeet floor. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you spare Loghain in my mind it is a signal that others can do the same thing. His execution to me was followings the law and letting no one be above the law. 

 

I agree with you that: "I think it's just poor storytelling". I'm also not okay with the Warden committing crimes and the game letting you do it with no backlash. I have no problems with the Warden having to follow the laws or see penalties for her/his actions.  

 

Loghain is stripped of his lands, forced to endure a sentence that might well kill him, and is going to die in the Deep Roads due to his survival. Just to top that off, he's answering to the guy who might well have personally beaten the crap out of him. Most nobles are not going to risk this.

 

As for the Warden, if you fail a steal in Ostagar, Duncan dresses you down. If you fail a steal from the Dalish, apparently some members of the clan decide to go around the Keeper and try to lynch you. And I've failed Steal checks in Denerim and personally had guards try to arrest me. (By arrest I mean kill.) So they're not as weak about this as all that.

[Endurium]

I initially sided with Alistair and killed Loghain at the Landsmeet, but later characters (Dark Wardens) let Anora execute Alistair, and Loghain sacrificed himself at the Archdemon so my character could live on triumphant. If that allowed Anora to feel better about her father, so be it. My warden wanted her mind unclouded since I often choose to work with her.

[Cobra's_back]

Kinda feel like the Warden is above Justice simply because the world is under an enormous pressure and you are the only one that can save it. Which pretty much means people have to put up with you, that is why playing a dick warden works in this game, but on to Loghain. If Riordan had taken the time to ask the Warden and Alistair if they knew about the sacrifice it is to kill an Archdemon, maybe even Alistair could see that letting Loghain take the finalblow was justice done and not just let him bleed out on the landsmeet floor. 

 

The Warden shouldn't be above justice. It shouldn't be anything goes. Societies have laws for a reason and no one should be above them. This is probably why we keep having these discussions. People are totally okay with the violations of laws that have resulted in kidnapping, slavery and murder. Just think about the people who didn't want to be slaves. Did anyone miss the blood stains?

[Cobra's_back]

Loghain is stripped of his lands, forced to endure a sentence that might well kill him, and is going to die in the Deep Roads due to his survival. Just to top that off, he's answering to the guy who might well have personally beaten the crap out of him. Most nobles are not going to risk this.

 

As for the Warden, if you fail a steal in Ostagar, Duncan dresses you down. If you fail a steal from the Dalish, apparently some members of the clan decide to go around the Keeper and try to lynch you. And I've failed Steal checks in Denerim and personally had guards try to arrest me. (By arrest I mean kill.) So they're not as weak about this as all that.

 

Then why are there so many post claiming that "the Warden is above Justice simply because the world is under an enormous pressure" and "slavery is not such a big issue"? There seems to be the idea that Loghain should be "above the Law".

 

I never played the evil route. You can kill a soldier who asked for help. You can kill an unarmed merchant in Lothering. What happens when you kill this unarmed merchant.

 

PS: "Loghain is stripped of his lands, forced to endure a sentence that might well kill him, and is going to die in the Deep Roads due to his survival." 

 

I don't see this as capital punishment. Most of the people that suffered by Loghain's hand really don't know the truth. To me it really is about driving home a message. I sure the next would be dictator would think twice if Loghain was executed. 

[Chashan]

Kinda feel like the Warden is above Justice simply because the world is under an enormous pressure and you are the only one that can save it. Which pretty much means people have to put up with you, that is why playing a dick warden works in this game, but on to Loghain. If Riordan had taken the time to ask the Warden and Alistair if they knew about the sacrifice it is to kill an Archdemon, maybe even Alistair could see that letting Loghain take the finalblow was justice done and not just let him bleed out on the landsmeet floor. 

 

The good 'stair has some skewed ideas about being a Warden, however, crying how it is an "honour" Mr Mac Tir is not "worthy" of.

 

Shows what he knows of the Wardens' recruitment-roster, which was pointed out before. Not too different from organizations whose mandate is to fight a near-mythical enemy most of the world don't believe in anymore found in other franchises, such as the Night's Watch of ASoIaF, the Black Tower of WoT, etc.

 

As for myself, Landsmeet means "Alistair Dies Tonight" to me by default. Fully deserved given his childish pouting and eschewing duty which was pointed out by others.

 

Mike3207 wrote...

Those associated soldiers were Orlesian chevaliers who garrisoned Ferelden once before. I can't blame Loghain for not letting them in.

 

Given his descriptions of Orlesian occupation, a first-hand experience of him, the good chevaliers' conduct in Ferelden at that time doesn't sound to be too far removed from the darkspawn - pillaging, rape, murder on a whim..So his preferring to keep them out by all means necessary can hardly be considered "paranoid".

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then why are there so many post claiming that "the Warden is above Justice simply because the world is under an enormous pressure" and "slavery is not such a big issue"? There seems to be the idea that Loghain should be "above the Law".

 

PS: "Loghain is stripped of his lands, forced to endure a sentence that might well kill him, and is going to die in the Deep Roads due to his survival." 

 

I don't see this as capital punishment. Most of the people that suffered by Loghain's hand really don't know the truth. To me it really is about driving home a message. I sure the next would be dictator would think twice if Loghain was executed. 

It is publicly announced that Loghain might well die in front of any witness with the power to do what he did, and everyone knows that's it for him as a nobleman. As for people thinking the Warden's above the law, maybe they never got caught stealing? I can tell you I reload every time I am.

[sylvanaerie]

There is a huge difference between Orlesians and Darkspawn.  Orlesians (if they took advantage of the situation and took over Ferelden again) would make Fereldens miserable, probably kill a few, rape, and whatever horror you can think of that man will perpetrate on man.  They don't, however, taint the land and life around them just by their very nature.  

 

Darkspawn are anathema to all life.  Their very presence taints the LAND and all life living on it, rendering it incapable of sustaining life.  There are letters Hawke gets from friends from Lothering saying it was so blighted, it was unlivable.  The first blight (having taken decades to end) left parts of the Anderfels so blighted nothing still grows there a thousand years later.

 

So anyone who argues Loghain was 'right to turn away Orlesian wardens and 200 Orlesian soldiers' out of paranoia isn't getting any credibility where I'm concerned.  Darkspawn are clearly a greater threat.

[Chashan]

There is a huge difference between Orlesians and Darkspawn.  Orlesians (if they took advantage of the situation and took over Ferelden again) would make Fereldens miserable, probably kill a few, rape, and whatever horror you can think of that man will perpetrate on man.  They don't, however, taint the land and life around them just by their very nature.  

 

Darkspawn are anathema to all life.  Their very presence taints the LAND and all life living on it, rendering it incapable of sustaining life.  There are letters Hawke gets from friends from Lothering saying it was so blighted, it was unlivable.  The first blight (having taken decades to end) left parts of the Anderfels so blighted nothing still grows there a thousand years later.

 

So anyone who argues Loghain was 'right to turn away Orlesian wardens and 200 Orlesian soldiers' out of paranoia isn't getting any credibility where I'm concerned.  Darkspawn are clearly a greater threat.

 

Which is what we, as players, are fully in the know about.

In the setting itself, however, it has been several centuries since the last Blight, its accounts being the stuff of legend and myth in the Dragon age, which is why the threat is not taken as seriously as one might expect. After all, it appears to not even be widely known what happens to captives of the 'spawn, basic as that knowledge is.

Otherwise, the treaties the PC carry wouldn't require additional services for the various parties to be convinced to lend their full support.

[Mike3207]

 

 

So anyone who argues Loghain was 'right to turn away Orlesian wardens and 200 Orlesian soldiers' out of paranoia isn't getting any credibility where I'm concerned.  Darkspawn are clearly a greater threat.

Sure-but would those forces had made any difference if they had shown up at the battlefield?i doubt it. Most likely it just would have increased the bodycount at Ostagar.

[Cobra's_back]

The good 'stair has some skewed ideas about being a Warden, however, crying how it is an "honour" Mr Mac Tir is not "worthy" of.

 

Shows what he knows of the Wardens' recruitment-roster, which was pointed out before. Not too different from organizations whose mandate is to fight a near-mythical enemy most of the world don't believe in anymore found in other franchises, such as the Night's Watch of ASoIaF, the Black Tower of WoT, etc.

 

As for myself, Landsmeet means "Alistair Dies Tonight" to me by default. Fully deserved given his childish pouting and eschewing duty which was pointed out by others.

 

 

 

 

Given his descriptions of Orlesian occupation, a first-hand experience of him, the good chevaliers' conduct in Ferelden at that time doesn't sound to be too far removed from the darkspawn - pillaging, rape, murder on a whim..So his preferring to keep them out by all means necessary can hardly be considered "paranoid".

 

If you read the book they were allowed to do this because King Meghren allowed it. This is not the case here. It is a completely different situation. You are assuming that Cailan would allow this.

[Cobra's_back]

It is publicly announced that Loghain might well die in front of any witness with the power to do what he did, and everyone knows that's it for him as a nobleman. As for people thinking the Warden's above the law, maybe they never got caught stealing? I can tell you I reload every time I am.

 

Thank you for checking. What happens when they kill the merchant? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Thank you for checking. What happens when they kill the merchant? 

Most of the witnesses have been chased off*, divination and forensic science don't seem to exist in this setting, and the party will accept worse from you. (Though I suppose the latter does tend to highlight your point. And the thing where you release Sten without permission and bring him into the Chantry kind of helps you too. They could have justified that by saying the Chantry isn't willing to waste lives dealing with him again, but they don't even bother.)

 

Edit: this is the one in Lothering we're speaking of, I think? The guy who wanted you to make a crowd disperse?

[Cobra's_back]

Riverdaleswhitefish,

 

I see what you are saying about it being a punishment. I guess that there are crimes in my mind that require swift justice. I would have loved an actual court scene but without one I believe that some criminals can't be out and about. I don't think the Wardens should allow serial killers, rapist or would be dictators. They seem much too dangerous and unpredictable.

[Xetykins]

The good 'stair has some skewed ideas about being a Warden, however, crying how it is an "honour" Mr Mac Tir is not "worthy" of.
 
Shows what he knows of the Wardens' recruitment-roster, which was pointed out before. Not too different from organizations whose mandate is to fight a near-mythical enemy most of the world don't believe in anymore found in other franchises, such as the Night's Watch of ASoIaF, the Black Tower of WoT, etc.
 
As for myself, Landsmeet means "Alistair Dies Tonight" to me by default. Fully deserved given his childish pouting and eschewing duty which was pointed out by others.

 
Given his descriptions of Orlesian occupation, a first-hand experience of him, the good chevaliers' conduct in Ferelden at that time doesn't sound to be too far removed from the darkspawn - pillaging, rape, murder on a whim..So his preferring to keep them out by all means necessary can hardly be considered "paranoid".

Sooo Alistair gets death penalty for pouting and Loghain gets free pass because he is justifyably paranoid that he sells people to slavery, warmongering againts the nobles , which by the way weakens ferelden even more, , killing and torturing the very people that he "apparently" tries to protect.

And when the Orlesians does decide to take over blight ravaged ferelden, it would be a walk in the park cuz Loghain with his almighty tactical genius weakened it even more.

But that's ok he was a general, he is pardoned with all his titanical crimes. Bet lets kill the pouting guy over there, the one that's actually doing something useful from day one because well... he's pouting and that in itself is punishable by death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Riverdaleswhitefish,

 

I see what you are saying about it being a punishment. I guess that there are crimes in my mind that require swift justice. I would have loved an actual court scene but without one I believe that some criminals can't be out and about. I don't think the Wardens should allow serial killers, rapist or would be dictators. They seem much too dangerous and unpredictable.

I can see your point if Howe was an option, but Loghain? Loghain is broken by this point. (Though I'm saying this from a metagame position. I can see an argument that the Warden would be a moron to trust Loghain. Edit: Or Sten, or Zevran, or Velanna.)

[Cobra's_back]

Most of the witnesses have been chased off*, divination and forensic science don't seem to exist in this setting, and the party will accept worse from you. (Though I suppose the latter does tend to highlight your point. And the thing where you release Sten without permission and bring him into the Chantry kind of helps you too. They could have justified that by saying the Chantry isn't willing to waste lives dealing with him again, but they don't even bother.)

 

Edit: this is the one in Lothering we're speaking of, I think? The guy who wanted you to make a crowd disperse?

 

I remember this guy in the open by the Chantry. there are plenty of people around. I find it hard to believe that no one would see it. It is daylight and you can see people around. Spoiler Alert:

 

 

[theskymoves]

I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

• meta knowledge and/or speculation
• headcanon
• wanting the Warden to marry Anora and be King himself tra la la
• Howe did it. ALL OF IT.
• "It's all Teagan's fault for starting a civil war!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!"
• Orlesians. ORLESIANS!!! (Except the one that is Anora's bestie, She's okay. Or invisible. Or something.)
• a burning lust for Alistair's head on a pike that can only be slaked by keeping Loghain's off of one

[Akrabra]

The Warden shouldn't be above justice. It shouldn't be anything goes. Societies have laws for a reason and no one should be above them. This is probably why we keep having these discussions. People are totally okay with the violations of laws that have resulted in kidnapping, slavery and murder. Just think about the people who didn't want to be slaves. Did anyone miss the blood stains?

I am not saying they should, i am saying in this game they can, because it is a blight. Just trying to put things in perspective. It was a figure of speech about the blood, in almost all ingame cinematics where people die there is a big splootch of blood underneath them. 

[Ryzaki]

 

I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

• meta knowledge and/or speculation
• headcanon
• wanting the Warden to marry Anora and be King himself tra la la
• Howe did it. ALL OF IT.
• "It's all Teagan's fault for starting a civil war!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!"
• Orlesians. ORLESIANS!!! (Except the one that is Anora's bestie, She's okay. Or invisible. Or something.)
• a burning lust for Alistair's head on a pike that can only be slaked by keeping Loghain's off of one

 

 

XD

[sylvanaerie]

Which is what we, as players, are fully in the know about.

In the setting itself, however, it has been several centuries since the last Blight, its accounts being the stuff of legend and myth in the Dragon age, which is why the threat is not taken as seriously as one might expect. After all, it appears to not even be widely known what happens to captives of the 'spawn, basic as that knowledge is.

Otherwise, the treaties the PC carry wouldn't require additional services for the various parties to be convinced to lend their full support.

 

And what part of "the taint is overwhelming the country" do you think Loghain missed?  Because until you force the issue in the Landsmeet he's ignoring what's right there in front of his face.  I'm not talking myth and legend here, this is current events.  And if he wants to claim it's just a large incursion by darkspawn that's bad enough because it's having the same effect as a full on Blight.  Until the PC him/herself sees the Archdemon, they aren't convinced either (at least that's how I play mine).

The effects of the taint can be seen as early as Ostagar with the soldiers going all 'whackadoo' in the first aid center located by the deserter in the cage.  It's long lasting effects (from the first blight) is present in the PRESENT DAY in the Anderfels.  It's not 'myth and legend' its a current state.

 

The reason the treaties alone don't work is every single one is in no position to give the Warden the troops he/she needs.  Those must be resolved so the people in charge can help, no one says "We can't help because we think you're lying/exaggerating the situation".

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

• meta knowledge and/or speculation
• headcanon
• wanting the Warden to marry Anora and be King himself tra la la
• Howe did it. ALL OF IT.
• "It's all Teagan's fault for starting a civil war!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!"
• Orlesians. ORLESIANS!!! (Except the one that is Anora's bestie, She's okay. Or invisible. Or something.)
• a burning lust for Alistair's head on a pike that can only be slaked by keeping Loghain's off of one

 

In fairness, Teagan really was partially responsible. As for wanting to marry Anora, that doesn't require Loghain to survive. It's wanting to become the Queen that requires you to make a specific decision vis a vis where Loghain's head is stored.

[Cobra's_back]

 

I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

• meta knowledge and/or speculation
• headcanon
• wanting the Warden to marry Anora and be King himself tra la la
• Howe did it. ALL OF IT.
• "It's all Teagan's fault for starting a civil war!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!"
• Orlesians. ORLESIANS!!! (Except the one that is Anora's bestie, She's okay. Or invisible. Or something.)
• a burning lust for Alistair's head on a pike that can only be slaked by keeping Loghain's off of one

 

 

 

I just love reading your post. They make me laugh. Thanks and please keep sharing.