3201 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Elhanan, the burden of proof is on you. You say it's possible, yet fail to demonstrate anything that would support such a claim.

[Elhanan]

Elhanan, the burden of proof is on you. You say it's possible, yet fail to demonstrate anything that would support such a claim.

Nope. This is what I would do instead of the option Loghain chose to leave Howe in power. No need to devise anything viable at all; only responding to the Original Topic and context of posts. Building and defending Straw Men arguments is not my intent at all.

[dragonflight288]

Nope. This is what I would do instead of the option Loghain chose to leave Howe in power. No need to devise anything viable at all; only responding to the Original Topic and context of posts. Building and defending Straw Men arguments is not my intent at all.

 

And we're asking for a solid plan on how you would implement it. 

 

You have given us nothing beyond the goal. It's a worthy goal, mind you, but you have no plan on how to achieve it in a way that would help unite Ferelden and wouldn't hurt it in the long run when taking into account the civil war as well as the blight. 

[Elhanan]

I do not care if it viable or not; tis what I would have done instead of leaving Howe in power. Stopping the Archdemon with only a couple of Wardens also seemed impossible, as did finding an intelligent Darkspawn in the areas below Amaranthine. Yet I dood it....

[TEWR]

Nope. This is what I would do instead of the option Loghain chose to leave Howe in power. No need to devise anything viable at all; only responding to the Original Topic and context of posts. Building and defending Straw Men arguments is not my intent at all.

 

What strawman arguments? None are being employed here at all.

 

If you don't see a need to demonstrate something viable, then your plan is doomed to fail from the beginning. If a plan has no viability, no plan of success, beyond pure luck that it'll turn out for the better... then you're in for a rude awakening.

[dragonflight288]

I do not care if it viable or not; tis what I would have done instead of leaving Howe in power. Stopping the Archdemon with only a couple of Wardens also seemed impossible, as did finding an intelligent Darkspawn in the areas below Amaranthine. Yet I dood it....

 

So, to put this in perspective.

 

You don't care if it decreases the number of forces Ferelden has available to fight the blight, nor do you care about Loghain fighting a war on three fronts, nobles fighting over the power vacuum of not only the throne but also the teynir of Highever and the arlings of Denerim and Amaranthine, a depleted treasury, insecure supply lines and no central leadership so long as it means taking Howe out for the greater good?

 

Well, at least you have your priorities. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I do not care if it viable or not; tis what I would have done instead of leaving Howe in power. Stopping the Archdemon with only a couple of Wardens also seemed impossible, as did finding an intelligent Darkspawn in the areas below Amaranthine. Yet I dood it....

I wouldn't want to be ruled by a ruler who says anything like this. It only worked in the Warden's case because the Warden is the Warden. Admittedly I wouldn't want to be ruled by Howe or Loghain either, but at least they have an actual plan.

[TEWR]

 

 

so long as it means taking Howe out for the greater good?

 

Which is an arguable claim in the first place, since Elhanan's entire point centers around being a Human Noble. So it's less about some sense of the greater good and more a warped perception of justice centered around bloodlust.

 

It's like Alistair all over again. 

 

I'm sure I could devise some way that it might have been feasible, but I'm sure as hell not going to do Elhanan's homework for him.

[Elhanan]

So, to put this in perspective.
 
You don't care if it decreases the number of forces Ferelden has available to fight the blight, nor do you care about Loghain fighting a war on three fronts, nobles fighting over the power vacuum of not only the throne but also the teynir of Highever and the arlings of Denerim and Amaranthine, a depleted treasury, insecure supply lines and no central leadership so long as it means taking Howe out for the greater good?
 
Well, at least you have your priorities. 

I do not care about building a Straw man hypothetical argument, developing a cost analysis, or any other conjectured defense for this; simply would choose booting Howe over what was done in game. Allowing Howe to stay ruined Loghain, and nearly fell Ferelden; making Loghain ultimately responsible for those crimes under his watch.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I do not care about building a Straw man hypothetical argument, developing a cost analysis, or any other conjectured defense for this; simply would choose booting Howe over what was done in game. Allowing Howe to stay ruined Loghain, and nearly fell Ferelden; making Loghain ultimately responsible for those crimes under his watch.

We're arguing that to do otherwise might have meant that Ferelden actually fell. Also I don't see where the phrase "Straw Man" applies here. I know what a Strawman argument is but I don't see where either side has used one.

[Elhanan]

We're arguing that to do otherwise might have meant that Ferelden actually fell. Also I don't see where the phrase "Straw Man" applies here. I know what a Strawman argument is but I don't see where either side has used one.

Not going to argue, debate, defend, etc this fictitious option; only take it were it to appear in the actual game.

[phaonica]

Not going to argue, debate, defend, etc this fictitious option; only take it were it to appear in the actual game.

 

In other words, rely entirely on PC plot armor that Loghain does not have.

[Elhanan]

In other words, rely entirely on PC plot armor that Loghain does not have.

No; simply kill him almost every chance I get from the plotline I am given.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No; simply kill him almost every chance I get from the plotline I am given.

I think that given Howe's level of political power you didn't contradict her as much as you think you did.

[Elhanan]

I think that given Howe's level of political power you didn't contradict her as much as you think you did.

But I did try to actually get it back on topic....

[phaonica]

No; simply kill him almost every chance I get from the plotline I am given.

 

You seem to be saying that even though you can't think of a way that Loghain could have disposed of Howe without devastating consequences, he should have done it anyway because you'd have done it regardless of the consequences, which is easy to say because as the PC, you're going to win anyway, so who cares about the consequences?

[Elhanan]

You seem to be saying that even though you can't think of a way that Loghain could have disposed of Howe without devastating consequences, he should have done it anyway because you'd have done it regardless of the consequences, which is easy to say because as the PC, you're going to win anyway, so who cares about the consequences?

No; because that is the only option given in the game.

[phaonica]

No; because that is the only option given in the game.

 

I didn't ask you why you'd kill Howe. I accused you of metagaming. You said you would "boot Howe" regardless of the consequences and I accused you of using metagame knowledge that the PC cannot fail to make you comfortable in your assumption that you could get away with it, even though you don't seem to have any idea how you'd manage it.

 

Yeah, the PC can kill Howe and nothing bad happens. Whether that was realistic or whether it was plot armor, who knows. The PC being able to do it and Loghain being able to do it are entirely different things.

[Elhanan]

I didn't ask you why you'd kill Howe. I accused you of metagaming. You said you would "boot Howe" regardless of the consequences and I accused you of using metagame knowledge that the PC cannot fail to make you comfortable in your assumption that you could get away with it, even though you don't seem to have any idea how you'd manage it.
 
Yeah, the PC can kill Howe and nothing bad happens. Whether that was realistic or whether it was plot armor, who knows. The PC being able to do it and Loghain being able to do it are entirely different things.

I would boot Howe cause it was the right thing to do; have no idea if it would work because that option does no exist. I kill Loghain because it is an option.

[TEWR]

and we're sitting here telling you it wouldn't work and giving you ample reasons why it wouldn't work, yet you would still do it?

 

Even if it made things worse for Ferelden? Even if more lives were tossed to the flames to feed your vanity, your odd perception of what's right, after you do it?

[Elhanan]

and we're sitting here telling you it wouldn't work and giving you ample reasons why it wouldn't work, yet you would still do it?
 
Even if it made things worse for Ferelden? Even if more lives were tossed to the flames to feed your vanity, your odd perception of what's right, after you do it?

Even with detractors, like those in the actual game. But since that is all hypothetical, guess I have to settle for executing Loghain.

[Jedimaster88]

After reading all these Howe related things a crazy idea came to my mind. Dont take this as a serious suggestion to the Howe problem because I realize its pretty crazy and could cause all sorts of problems if its even possible to execute.

 

Use blood magic to control Howe´s every single move and thought. This way Loghain and Anora could always be in control and once Howe has served his purpose...well accidents do happen and right now lords are dying like flies.

 

The only one who could perform that magic that I can think of is Jowan or maybe Uldred. Uldred might know more about blood magic than Jowan.

[TEWR]

That could work, if it was kept secret well enough.

[sjsharp2011]

Well Loghain is dying in my current run but then I have no reason to want to keep him, alive playing as a mage

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well Loghain is dying in my current run but then I have no reason to want to keep him, alive playing as a mage

He did try to get the Circle new freedoms. It might have even worked if Wynne hadn't gone back to the Circle and made the alliance unpalatable to Irving by giving an arguably questionable description of the Battle of Ostagar. Uldred reacted badly to that, but I don't think that was entirely Loghain's fault.