Well Loghain is dying in my current run but then I have no reason to want to keep him, alive playing as a mage
Unless you're referring to Loghain hiring Jowan to poison Eamon, that's really the only thing Loghain really had a direct hand in with the mage origin.
Everything else is on Uldred leading a rebellion after Wynne botched any hope of him getting an alliance with Loghain in exchange for more circle autonomy and becoming an abomination.
Even with detractors, like those in the actual game. But since that is all hypothetical, guess I have to settle for executing Loghain.
You can do what you want int the game, that's the beauty of having these kinds of choices in Bioware games, but you'll be missing out on some excellent content with Loghain in Inquisition.
Loghain is easily better than both Alistair and Stroud as the Warden the Inquisitor works with, and is a great man in that game. A genuine hero.
You can do what you want int the game, that's the beauty of having these kinds of choices in Bioware games, but you'll be missing out on some excellent content with Loghain in Inquisition.
Loghain is easily better than both Alistair and Stroud as the Warden the Inquisitor works with, and is a great man in that game. A genuine hero.
Unless you're referring to Loghain hiring Jowan to poison Eamon, that's really the only thing Loghain really had a direct hand in with the mage origin.
Everything else is on Uldred leading a rebellion after Wynne botched any hope of him getting an alliance with Loghain in exchange for more circle autonomy and becoming an abomination.
You can do what you want int the game, that's the beauty of having these kinds of choices in Bioware games, but you'll be missing out on some excellent content with Loghain in Inquisition.
Loghain is easily better than both Alistair and Stroud as the Warden the Inquisitor works with, and is a great man in that game. A genuine hero.
But my warden felt just as Alistair did that they were betrayed by someone not following orders and then discovering the other crimes he committed later in the game to the elves made my warden want him dead even more tbh in my current playthrough anyway. It's not so much the background it's the crimes he's commiting during the game's story that's disgusted my character to wanting him dead. That's how I'm playing my current warden I may play it another way some other time though.
Technically Loghain was the one giving the orders as he came up with the strategy and the king flat out wanted to be on the front lines, but how you choose to roleplay is your business and not mine.
And the slavery bit is something that I can fully understand wanting him dead for. I understand why he did it, Ferelden was out of money thanks to the civil war and Howe embezzling funds and he needed resources to fight the darkspawn, but it is still a despicable act that I won't even bother defending. I simply acknowledge that I get his reasons even though I still strongly disagree with his actions.
Aside from hiring Jowan to poison Eamon, hiring the crows and the selling elves into slavery bit, Loghain actually hasn't done any crimes. Doesn't mitigate what he actually did do, and I can and frequently do roleplay my wardens to act in ways I wouldn't act or think what I wouldn't think, but it is my honest opinion that Loghain isn't anywhere near as guilty as Alistair thinks he is. Alistair simply has survivor's guilt and has been sheltered and idealistic, and he sees the Wardens with rose colored glasses and holds Duncan up on a pedestal. And he doesn't want to kill Loghain for reasons like justice. Have him duel Loghain and his last words are...
Loghain: I yield. It seems there's a little of Maric in you after all.
Alistair: Forget Maric. This is for Duncan.
Which tells us that Alistair's reasons are for revenge for a man he viewed as a father figure and not for the good of Ferelden.
Simply my personal opinion outside of the realm of roleplaying as my individual wardens.
Agreed that's the main reason why I love these games both DA and ME as there are so many different things that can be changed around.
Yup.
Although I've never gone through the Mass Effect trilogy full on renegade before because I always feel like a jerk if I do. And I only managed to stomach beating Jade Empire as a follower of the Way of the Closed Fist once.
And I thought Darth Sideous was a self-serving evil egomaniac, but he's nothing compared to Closed Fist Spirit Monk.
I never liked Loghain but I read the Stolen Throne and damn he was awesome there. I still kill him but now I hesitate for a second. 
He betrayed the King, left thousands of soldiers to die, poisoned Eamon via blood mage no less and thus he started all that Redcliff stuff (I can say that something like that might have happened sooner or later but at that moment it was his fault), sold elves to slavery, sent an assassin to kill me (now it is personal!), initiated the civil war, his side kick is Howe of all people and etc.
He was great in Stolen Throne and The Calling but there is no white washing his crimes, the dead aren't coming back.
He betrayed the King
Nope. Read the thread and you'll see the posts me and others have come up with on not just Ostagar but everything you're espousing right now.
I'd rehash them but bedtime, so I'm only giving a barebones post now. dragonflight, Monica21, Persephone, Riverdales, or any of the other regulars will probably expand and give the arguments they and I have said many times in the past.
(and will continue saying, no doubt).
left thousands of soldiers to die
More like hundreds, but he ended up saving thousands by his retreat.
poisoned Eamon via blood mage no less and thus he started all that Redcliff stuff (I can say that something like that might have happened sooner or later but at that moment it was his fault)
Eh, politics.
Also Jowan and Isolde and perhaps even Eamon share blame in that (Loghain will ask you how likely it is the traditionalist noble wouldn't have known his son was a mage for some time, when he would've had to give Connor up to the Circle and be heirless).
sent an assassin to kill me (now it is personal!
Not to me. It's politics and very flattering.
initiated the civil war
The Bannorn did that. Loghain didn't help matters by his approach to the Bannorn, certainly, but he never started it.
It would be a stupid move for a man who wanted to avoid civil war by his actions to end up striking the first blow and starting it.
The Bannorn geared up for war despite Loghain's desire to combat the Darkspawn under a unified front. They're the ones who started the civil war, thanks to Teagan's inflammatory remarks and the power vacuum.
his side kick is Howe of all people
Politically necessary, especially from a military standpoint. Howe has assumed control of the Coastlands at this point behind everyone's back and is now a force to be reckoned with in his own right, one that Loghain needs on his side for the vital supply lines and troops meant to fight. Antagonizing Howe could potentially lead to a third front he would have to fight on.
no white washing his crimes, the dead aren't coming back
Which he knows. And he lives with the weight of the dead on his conscience every day. The lives lost to the civil war are not something he distances himself from, nor those at Ostagar. In fact, everyone that's ever died in his life he ends up having weigh on his conscience, even if he wasn't in any way responsible (if he survives the game into Inquisition).
Funnily, you're just giving him the easy way out. He will poignantly tell you it's much harder to live with the guilt and the weight of the dead then it is to die.
Plus, yes, the dead aren't coming back. I see little reason in adding one more to the pile that can be useful still, nor coating his daughter in blood as she watches it happen in front of her.
I would boot Howe cause it was the right thing to do; have no idea if it would work because that option does no exist. I kill Loghain because it is an option.
It seems to me that from Loghain's point of view, it would be best to take advantage of Howe's resources while there's a greater threat, then deal with him later. It's not wise to fight a battle on two fronts, though that's precisely what happened anyway, thanks to the nobles deciding not to rally to Loghain's banner. Of course, my human noble Warden doesn't give a sh** about anybody's reasons. Vengeance rules all, and these fools are gonna taste it.
Loghain did betray the King; if not directly, his withdrawal certainly left many men on the field expecting his forces.
Standing up to tyrannical rule is a duty for the Bannorn; another example of Loghain's lack of leadership. Keeping Howe further exemplifies degraded judgment.
The first bit is true assuming the battle was winnable. Not pointlessly dying is not betrayal.
And the Bannorn's duty was to take out the darkspawn. If Loghain was still in charge and still a tyrant afterwards, then he's their duty to take down. True, they wind up doing a better job of it than Loghain, but the fact remains that he's the one who did made it a priority at that Landsmeet that we see while the Warden is recruiting Dog.
As for hiring Crows not being part of Ferelden culture, you do remember the events of Awakening with Esmerelle's plot?
It seems to me that from Loghain's point of view, it would be best to take advantage of Howe's resources while there's a greater threat, then deal with him later. It's not wise to fight a battle on two fronts, though that's precisely what happened anyway, thanks to the nobles deciding not to rally to Loghain's banner. Of course, my human noble Warden doesn't give a sh** about anybody's reasons. Vengeance rules all, and these fools are gonna taste it.
Well, nobody says your characters have to act on any of this. As for the rest of it, exactly this.
The first bit is true assuming the battle was winnable. Not pointlessly dying is not betrayal.
And the Bannorn's duty was to take out the darkspawn. If Loghain was still in charge and still a tyrant afterwards, then he's their duty to take down. True, they wind up doing a better job of it than Loghain, but the fact remains that he's the one who did made it a priority at that Landsmeet that we see while the Warden is recruiting Dog.
As for hiring Crows not being part of Ferelden culture, you do remember the events of Awakening with Esmerelle's plot?....
and this country does not hire assassins as part of the political culture
Funny, considering Esmerelle was there and the fact that Ignacio says the civil war brought many old grudges to a boil and was thus good fro the Crows' business.
It's very much something that happens in Ferelden.
Funny, considering Esmerelle was there and the fact that Ignacio says the civil war brought many old grudges to a boil and was thus good fro the Crows' business.
It's very much something that happens in Ferelden.
He did try to get the Circle new freedoms. It might have even worked if Wynne hadn't gone back to the Circle and made the alliance unpalatable to Irving by giving an arguably questionable description of the Battle of Ostagar. Uldred reacted badly to that, but I don't think that was entirely Loghain's fault.
And you're probably right, but like sjsharp2011's current Warden, my canon Warden still blamed Loghain for it. (Then again, I headcanon that my Warden was born in the Denerim Alienage and taken to the Circle at about age six, so he had other reasons to be pissed at Loghain...)
It was a lack of effort whether known or not. It led to a fatal conclusion, If Loghain has regrets, he should, but it does not pardon him for making the attempt.
The Bannorn were likely not unified in their opposition to Loghain, but I contend they were correct in opposing him at that time, esp as Howe was still in office. Perhaps if Howe was imprisoned, things might have gone differently, but that is speculative.
Using an example of poor behavior is never a great idea, but esp one that is so Orlesian considering it is Loghain that goes along with it.
We are given no reason to believe that Loghain regrets or doubts this decision, and are given reason to believe the contrary. Probably because its the easiest of his decisions to defend.
When I contend something, even as a point of speculation, I give a rationale and try to cite evidence. Just saying.
The point is, there's reason to believe you're wrong when you say using Crows isn't part of Ferelden culture. I'm not defending Loghain's use of Crows (though they'd have made a good option for the good guys after the Archdemon reincarnated and Loghain still refused Warden aid), just saying that there's some reason to believe they were doing good business even before Loghain and Zevran met.
And you're probably right, but like sjsharp2011's current Warden, my canon Warden still blamed Loghain for it. (Then again, I headcanon that my Warden was born in the Denerim Alienage and taken to the Circle at about age six, so he had other reasons to be pissed at Loghain...)
Fair.
I was remembering Loghain sulking while Howe hired the Crowes, and having the troubled conscience of all his past decisions on his shoulders. But it also could be his knowledge of his continuing capitulation to Howe's shenanigans that depressed the Regent; not just the past.
Loghain draining his goblet after hiring Zevran? That I thought was probably because he didn't want to have to resort to something so low. It might also have been that what he just approved reminded him of an Orlesian plot he'd previously foiled. But I don't think it has anything to do with his other various crimes and sins.
Nope. Read the thread and you'll see the posts me and others have come up with on not just Ostagar but everything you're espousing right now.
I'd rehash them but bedtime, so I'm only giving a barebones post now. dragonflight, Monica21, Persephone, Riverdales, or any of the other regulars will probably expand and give the arguments they and I have said many times in the past.
(and will continue saying, no doubt).
More like hundreds, but he ended up saving thousands by his retreat.
Eh, politics.
Also Jowan and Isolde and perhaps even Eamon share blame in that (Loghain will ask you how likely it is the traditionalist noble wouldn't have known his son was a mage for some time, when he would've had to give Connor up to the Circle and be heirless).
Not to me. It's politics and very flattering.
The Bannorn did that. Loghain didn't help matters by his approach to the Bannorn, certainly, but he never started it.
It would be a stupid move for a man who wanted to avoid civil war by his actions to end up striking the first blow and starting it.
The Bannorn geared up for war despite Loghain's desire to combat the Darkspawn under a unified front. They're the ones who started the civil war, thanks to Teagan's inflammatory remarks and the power vacuum.
Politically necessary, especially from a military standpoint. Howe has assumed control of the Coastlands at this point behind everyone's back and is now a force to be reckoned with in his own right, one that Loghain needs on his side for the vital supply lines and troops meant to fight. Antagonizing Howe could potentially lead to a third front he would have to fight on.
Which he knows. And he lives with the weight of the dead on his conscience every day. The lives lost to the civil war are not something he distances himself from, nor those at Ostagar. In fact, everyone that's ever died in his life he ends up having weigh on his conscience, even if he wasn't in any way responsible (if he survives the game into Inquisition).
Funnily, you're just giving him the easy way out. He will poignantly tell you it's much harder to live with the guilt and the weight of the dead then it is to die.
Plus, yes, the dead aren't coming back. I see little reason in adding one more to the pile that can be useful still, nor coating his daughter in blood as she watches it happen in front of her.
Sorry I have no time to read everything you guys have posted. In any case this is my reasoning;
Cailan has given him orders which he has disobeyed. Yea, most likely his motives were to spare his troops but he still committed a treason. We can only guess how the battle would have ended.
About the number of soldiers we can only speculate (is there an exact number?). Anyway he left many to die. At this point I think more like he has betrayed his soldiers, his brothers and sisters at arms. (for what he knows)
About Eamon and Connor I have said it nothing good will come out from keeping Connor's abilities secret. But it was Loghain's actions that triggered the poisoning of the Arl and Connors bargain with the demon to save his life.
To me it was personal. And big waste of gold.
What did you think it would happen? The King is dead, the south is lost, the main army is destroyed and here he is alive and well with his troops intact blaming the GW and assuming control. The Bannorn should have bowed because he asked? Still this is grey area. Maybe I was wrong about this but honestly what did you expect to happen?
It wasn't necessary for me.
I gave him what I think is just. If the game allowed I would have imprisoned him but alas it doesn't. There are lots of grey areas and many "what if" moments but his actions no matter how misguided (or intentional) were, he has [almost] doomed Ferelden.
Edit: Oh and the banning of the GW to enter Fereldan was stupid decision according to me. His paranoia and hate for Orlais got the better of him.
Sorry I have no time to read everything you guys have posted. In any case this is my reasoning;
Cailan has given him orders which he has disobeyed. Yea, most likely his motives were to spare his troops but he still committed a treason. We can only guess how the battle would have ended.
About the number of soldiers we can only speculate (is there an exact number?). Anyway he left many to die. At this point I think more like he has betrayed his soldiers, his brothers and sisters at arms.
About Eamon and Connor I have said it nothing good will come out from keeping Connor's abilities secret. But it was Loghain's actions that triggered the poisoning of the Arl and Connors bargain with the demon to save his life.
To me it was personal. And big waste of gold.
What did you think it would happen? The King is dead, the south is lost, the main army is destroyed and here he is alive and well with his troops intact blaming the GW and assuming control. The Bannorn should have bowed because he asked? Still this is grey area. Maybe I was wrong about this but honestly what did you expect to happen?
It wasn't necessary for me.
I gave him what I think is just. If the game allowed I would have imprisoned him but alas it doesn't. There are lots of grey areas and many "what if" moments but his actions no matter how misguided (or intentional) were, he has [almost] doomed Ferelden.
Cailan didn't give any orders at all. He just wanted to be on the front lines and Loghain gave the orders, and he repeatedy asked Cailan not to be on the front lines saying quite specifically that it was too dangerous for him to be playing hero.
And the devs have said that if Loghain felt the battle could have been won, he would've made the charge.
One thing I think you're seriously overlooking at Ostagar is this. The beacon was really late, Cailan and the Grey Wardens were already cracking under the pressure and being torn apart, and the line of darkspawn spread far out over the horizon.
A Loghain and Wynne dialogue makes it clear that Loghain knows exactly what he sacrificed and who died. He also knows their families but he felt he had to save as many soldiers as he could since the battle couldn't be won and Cailan couldn't be saved, so he didn't betray his brothers and sisters in arms, he tried to save as many as he could in an unwinnable situation.
The deal with Connor is WAAAAY too complex to pin on Loghain alone. Connor was a mage so he should've gone to the Circle. Isolde was desperate to hide the fact that Connor was a mage because she was ashamed of his magic because it has a dark history in her family (according to her chantry beliefs,) so she trusted Loghain to bring in an apostate, Jowan. Jowan was desperate and was told that Loghain would make things right with the Circle so he willingly poisoned Eamon, Isolde chose to send the knights away thus stripping Redcliff of almost all its defenders, and when Connor became possessed Isolde still went out of her way to protect her son in a castle with very few knights left and a village kept in the dark.
Loghain is guilty of sending in Jowan, but that whole debacle had so many factors contributing to the fubar meter that Jowan, Isolde and even to a more limted extent Eamon share a portion of the blame. If any of the factors didn't happen, Loghain hiring a blood mage, Jowan's incompetence, Isolde's demand for secrecy and Isolde sending the knights away may have been enough to keep so many people from dying.
The bannorn is known to declare war with each other over trees. Yes, Loghain is not a politician and he came off abruptly at the Landsmeet. A politician, he is not. But it is made pretty clear that it was the bannorn who chose to gather their forces to oppose Loghain, rather than fight the Darkspawn as Loghain was calling for first, so it was they who started the war while they have a living Queen still on the throne. The lore itself says that some of them were idealistic like Teagan, but others fought Loghain because they wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum.
Loghain is not responsible for starting the war. The bannorn are. And yes, the bannorn shouldn't have bowed because he asked. They should've bowed to their Queen Anora because she is already their queen and she appointed her father as Regent and they have an army of darkspawn marching through Ferelden.
The darkspawn take priority over fighting Loghain. That is why they should've fallen in line.
Cailan didn't give any orders at all. He just wanted to be on the front lines and Loghain gave the orders, and he repeatedy asked Cailan not to be on the front lines saying quite specifically that it was too dangerous for him to be playing hero.
And the devs have said that if Loghain felt the battle could have been won, he would've made the charge.
One thing I think you're seriously overlooking at Ostagar is this. The beacon was really late, Cailan and the Grey Wardens were already cracking under the pressure and being torn apart, and the line of darkspawn spread far out over the horizon.
A Loghain and Wynne dialogue makes it clear that Loghain knows exactly what he sacrificed and who died. He also knows their families but he felt he had to save as many soldiers as he could since the battle couldn't be won and Cailan couldn't be saved, so he didn't betray his brothers and sisters in arms, he tried to save as many as he could in an unwinnable situation.
The deal with Connor is WAAAAY too complex to pin on Loghain alone. Connor was a mage so he should've gone to the Circle. Isolde was desperate to hide the fact that Connor was a mage because she was ashamed of his magic because it has a dark history in her family (according to her chantry beliefs,) so she trusted Loghain to bring in an apostate, Jowan. Jowan was desperate and was told that Loghain would make things right with the Circle so he willingly poisoned Eamon, Isolde chose to send the knights away thus stripping Redcliff of almost all its defenders, and when Connor became possessed Isolde still went out of her way to protect her son in a castle with very few knights left and a village kept in the dark.
Loghain is guilty of sending in Jowan, but that whole debacle had so many factors contributing to the fubar meter that Jowan, Isolde and even to a more limted extent Eamon share a portion of the blame. If any of the factors didn't happen, Loghain hiring a blood mage, Jowan's incompetence, Isolde's demand for secrecy and Isolde sending the knights away may have been enough to keep so many people from dying.
The bannorn is known to declare war with each other over trees. Yes, Loghain is not a politician and he came off abruptly at the Landsmeet. A politician, he is not. But it is made pretty clear that it was the bannorn who chose to gather their forces to oppose Loghain, rather than fight the Darkspawn as Loghain was calling for first, so it was they who started the war while they have a living Queen still on the throne. The lore itself says that some of them were idealistic like Teagan, but others fought Loghain because they wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum.
Loghain is not responsible for starting the war. The bannorn are. And yes, the bannorn shouldn't have bowed because he asked. They should've bowed to their Queen Anora because she is already their queen and she appointed her father as Regent and they have an army of darkspawn marching through Ferelden.
The darkspawn take priority over fighting Loghain. That is why they should've fallen in line.
Okay, he was right about Ostagar and the Bannorn (did he really needed to make scapegoats from us btw?). About Eamon I still blame Loghain because he started a chain of events which led too all that mess. Granted, he couldn't have known what would come out of that but he gave the order.
I can only imagine the conversation Loghain and Uldred had. Uldred probably snickered to himself and twiddled this fingers.
Yes he should live and then Die vs the archdemon. There is no better punishment for him his soul will never see the beyond.
did he really needed to make scapegoats from us btw?
from his perspective, we were in fact responsible for Cailan's demise.
Look at it this way:
Historically the Wardens pledged themselves to help spread the Chant of Light at Drakon's behest, and he was the one who formally created the Chantry today. It was one of many cults at the time but his favored one dominated the land through his Exalted Marches of other city-states in what is now Orlais. The Chantry and Orlais are deeply intertwined, so they have had a history of being Orlesian agents.
Two hundred years ago, the Wardens were exiled from Ferelden for conspiring to overthrow the crown and place one of their own on it. The truth about the rebellion, and that Arland was a tyrant, wasn't known in the modern era as most of the records of that time were destroyed in the civil war that followed Arland's death. All that was known was that the Wardens were about to cause a civil war to kill the king of Ferelden at the time and they were cast out of Ferelden for it.
Already a poor track record.
Then fast forward to twenty years ago where Loghain saw some of the Wardens collaborating not just with an Orlesian First Enchanter bent on giving the King of Ferelden over to the Emperor, but also work towards corrupting all of humanity with the Darkspawn taint.
Also bad for their image.
Then, look at Ostagar itself. The Wardens kept their secrets from even the head of state and his general, when such things should be told to them so that they at least understand the Wardens' necessity (this is made even more glaringly stupid when you factor in how in the Calling, Duncan and Fiona and the rest blabbed their secrets to Maric. So why they don't do it now is beyond me).
So they tell Loghain nothing other then "We feel it with every fibre of our being that this is a Blight" which just sounds like guesswork to most people.
Throw in Cailan's idiotic gloryhounding persona where he thinks just being near the Wardens is enough to turn the tide of the battle, strategy and consequence be damned. The Wardens did nothing to reign in his mindset and tell him that while they are powerful and needed in the Blights, they cannot pull a victory out of their asses just by being there.
Then look at Ishal. The tower is taken by the Darkspawn, but Loghain doesn't know this. What he knows is that Alistair and the Warden should be at the top of the tower and light the signal when the forces in the valley send theirs up. We had less then one hour to get to the top of the tower and watch the battle. When we do light the beacon, we're late (as Alistair says) but also striking it at the wrong time as the plan called for the beacon to be lit when ALL the Darkspawn were committed to the battle, which they were not as you can see the extent of the horde goes to the ass-end of the Wilds and they were still coming into the valley when we light it.
So what Loghain sees is an order with a checkered history lighting the beacon at the wrong time when Cailan's forces are cracking under pressure, in the hopes that Loghain will be a romantic fool and charge in to save the king, thereby dying in the process. Ferelden would lose its king, its best general, and a large quantity of its troops.
Then, with a power vacuum in place, a civil war would erupt for the throne and weaken Ferelden further, and Orlais would swoop in to "save the day" as they had done to Nevarra and Kirkwall in the past (the former during a Blight, the latter during the Qunari Wars). Problem being, every time they save some place they never leave and have to be booted out.
So in Loghain's mind, the Wardens were indeed one of the biggest reasons Ostagar was a flop. In his mind, they were never going to help Ferelden stay independent and safe.
Is it paranoid? Sure, but it's also grounded in historical fact.
As for Eamon, I also forgot to mention that Howe also shares blame in that. He didn't give the order, but he did have a controlling hand in the situation (Berwick answered to a man in Howe's employ, and Howe is a power-hungry weasel who would stop at nothing to get more power and lands in his hands.)
Loghain draining his goblet after hiring Zevran? That I thought was probably because he didn't want to have to resort to something so low. It might also have been that what he just approved reminded him of an Orlesian plot he'd previously foiled. But I don't think it has anything to do with his other various crimes and sins.
I also get the impression that Loghain prefers to tackle challenges head-on. A challenge to a duel would have been much more his style - something concrete where he can face his opponent physically, as opposed to killing by stealth using someone else as proxy. Which was one reason why my canon Warden, after meeting Loghain (and more importantly, Howe) in Denerim, was willing to let that slide. (The other reason being his growing relationship with his would-be assassin)
from his perspective, we were in fact responsible for Cailan's demise.
Look at it this way:
Historically the Wardens pledged themselves to help spread the Chant of Light at Drakon's behest, and he was the one who formally created the Chantry today. It was one of many cults at the time but his favored one dominated the land through his Exalted Marches of other city-states in what is now Orlais. The Chantry and Orlais are deeply intertwined, so they have had a history of being Orlesian agents.
Two hundred years ago, the Wardens were exiled from Ferelden for conspiring to overthrow the crown and place one of their own on it. The truth about the rebellion, and that Arland was a tyrant, wasn't known in the modern era as most of the records of that time were destroyed in the civil war that followed Arland's death. All that was known was that the Wardens were about to cause a civil war to kill the king of Ferelden at the time and they were cast out of Ferelden for it.
Already a poor track record.
Then fast forward to twenty years ago where Loghain saw some of the Wardens collaborating not just with an Orlesian First Enchanter bent on giving the King of Ferelden over to the Emperor, but also work towards corrupting all of humanity with the Darkspawn taint.
Also bad for their image.
Then, look at Ostagar itself. The Wardens kept their secrets from even the head of state and his general, when such things should be told to them so that they at least understand the Wardens' necessity (this is made even more glaringly stupid when you factor in how in the Calling, Duncan and Fiona and the rest blabbed their secrets to Maric. So why they don't do it now is beyond me).
So they tell Loghain nothing other then "We feel it with every fibre of our being that this is a Blight" which just sounds like guesswork to most people.
Throw in Cailan's idiotic gloryhounding persona where he thinks just being near the Wardens is enough to turn the tide of the battle, strategy and consequence be damned. The Wardens did nothing to reign in his mindset and tell him that while they are powerful and needed in the Blights, they cannot pull a victory out of their asses just by being there.
Then look at Ishal. The tower is taken by the Darkspawn, but Loghain doesn't know this. What he knows is that Alistair and the Warden should be at the top of the tower and light the signal when the forces in the valley send theirs up. We had less then one hour to get to the top of the tower and watch the battle. When we do light the beacon, we're late (as Alistair says) but also striking it at the wrong time as the plan called for the beacon to be lit when ALL the Darkspawn were committed to the battle, which they were not as you can see the extent of the horde goes to the ass-end of the Wilds and they were still coming into the valley when we light it.
So what Loghain sees is an order with a checkered history lighting the beacon at the wrong time when Cailan's forces are cracking under pressure, in the hopes that Loghain will be a romantic fool and charge in to save the king, thereby dying in the process. Ferelden would lose its king, its best general, and a large quantity of its troops.
Then, with a power vacuum in place, a civil war would erupt for the throne and weaken Ferelden further, and Orlais would swoop in to "save the day" as they had done to Nevarra and Kirkwall in the past (the former during a Blight, the latter during the Qunari Wars). Problem being, every time they save some place they never leave and have to be booted out.
So in Loghain's mind, the Wardens were indeed one of the biggest reasons Ostagar was a flop. In his mind, they were never going to help Ferelden stay independent and safe.
Is it paranoid? Sure, but it's also grounded in historical fact.
As for Eamon, I also forgot to mention that Howe also shares blame in that. He didn't give the order, but he did have a controlling hand in the situation (Berwick answered to a man in Howe's employ, and Howe is a power-hungry weasel who would stop at nothing to get more power and lands in his hands.)
You make some very good points. I haven't read the books, so I can't speak to some of this (I really should get on that, though) but this does help me understand Loghain a bit better. Honestly, one of my canon Warden's biggest regrets is that he couldn't bring himself to spare the man. Unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier, he blamed Loghain for both the situation in the Alienage and the situation in the Circle Tower, and he wasn't very inclined to be fair by the time he reached the Landsmeet.
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