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[dragonflight288]

Loghain's plan was two fold; only one part was implemented. The overall plan was nullified by the dissolution of the second part. leaving the King, Wardens, and various troops to die was desertion, but according to some, a tactical necessity. Personally, I don't buy it.

 

And had he followed through with the charge, Ferelden would have no army to fight the darkspawn and everyone would be dead. 

 

You're ignoring several key points about Ostagar.

 

1. The beacon was late.

 

2. The beacon was supposed to be lit after all the darkspawn had committed to the field. But they weren't and were still pouring into the valley from the wilds.

 

3. Cailan and the Wardens were already cracking under pressure and were surrounded on all sides. 

 

Cailan could not have been saved had Loghain charged and the flanking maneuver would have failed because the darkspawn weren't committed. 

[Elhanan]

There is no sure way of knowing if the attempt to save the King would have failed, unless a writer has spoken of this. However, by not trying, it was certainly doomed to failure.

Watches were not extent; plans hardly were based on exact hours.

Loghain could not see the Darkspawn, and they could not see him. hence the signal being required.

The rest is speculation. In fact, from other reports, the King appeared to be doing OK.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Belief does not equate to fact or truth. What Loghain did was failure to complete his assigned mission. This is fact. Others witness this failure, and then are hunted for that knowledge. That appears to sway my opinion if I had any doubt.

Aveline met her husband who did desert his post to find her, and her Sire was dead. Knowing of Loghain's failure, not following him to Denerim seems to be a good choice, baesed on what happens to others of a sim opinion. She did not desert Loghain; he deserted his troops and duty, the King and his troops, and the Wardens; tactically or not.

I'm not sure how either of these answers the paragraph it corresponds to.

[Monica21]

I think it's fascinating how this thread is still going strong. There are a number of good thoughts and well written posts.

 

 

You're really stretching on this one. While it's cool that you put all those thoughts together and they may be correct, much of that isn't in the narrative of the game. I'm very big on the idea that important story information must be in the primary media. For example, the Matrix video game had story elements relating to the movies, but it really wasn't plot critical. The story the game tells is that Loghain uses the Wardens as a scapegoat for his having quit the field and abandoned Cailan and the army to die. All his talk about uniting is political because it's only important that people unite behind him. That said, he does care about Ferelden, but he's blinded by arrogance and fear of outside influence, whether from Orlais or the Gray Wardens.

 

While I agree with you, the books and comics are considered canon and are therefore still fair game to reference for plot points such as these.

 

I am uncertain how these two sentences work together. Considering how many other lives Loghain saved, I'd argue that what he did was more honorable than the alternative.

 

 

And these others are more worthy of trust? If we're using the "deserter" ad hominem I think Aveline qualifies too, and I don't think Alistair could actually see anything that was happening on the battlefield. (Not to mention the jarring transition on his part from reporting evidence that Cailan was about to lose to blaming Loghain for throwing away a sure-win battle.)

 

Well, Hawke is a deserter too, and I never liked that either. "Let's go get mom and flee."

 

There is no sure way of knowing if the attempt to save the King would have failed, unless a writer has spoken of this. However, by not trying, it was certainly doomed to failure.

Watches were not extent; plans hardly were based on exact hours.

Loghain could not see the Darkspawn, and they could not see him. hence the signal being required.

The rest is speculation. In fact, from other reports, the King appeared to be doing OK.

 

This has all been explained to you, on multiple occasions and from various people. You are offering nothing other than, "Try to rescue the King because traitor" and yet failing to explain how you would do so without alerting the darkspawn to your presence by charging from cover, how you'd find the King, and how you'd manage to get him to safety from the battlefield. And I fully expect you to respond with, "Doesn't matter he should have tried" instead of something thoughtful. Which frankly, renders any argument you make moot. You have to be willing to bring a solution if you want anyone to take you seriously.

[Damdil]

 

This has all been explained to you, on multiple occasions and from various people. You are offering nothing other than, "Try to rescue the King because traitor" and yet failing to explain how you would do so without alerting the darkspawn to your presence by charging from cover, how you'd find the King, and how you'd manage to get him to safety from the battlefield. And I fully expect you to respond with, "Doesn't matter he should have tried" instead of something thoughtful. Which frankly, renders any argument you make moot. You have to be willing to bring a solution if you want anyone to take you seriously.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. I think we have a case of circling logic here. 

 

@Elhanan

 

Well we don't really have to rely on too many reports, do we? The cutscene which shows us the death of Cailan and Duncan is settled only moments after Alistair and the main character ignited the beacon. Not even minutes later, Cailan is dead. You see soldiers running in despair and brutal slaughter, Cailan's formation already broke. It doesn't look like an even fight at any point we are seeing. So it's really unrealistic to think Loghain's charge would rescue him. What would be the use of charge in the flank of your enemy, when he's not busy at another point of the battle? It's just pointless and Loghain made the rational decision of saving his men from an unnessecary death.

[Elhanan]

Thanks for pointing this out. I think we have a case of circling logic here. 
 
@Elhanan
 
Well we don't really have to rely on too many reports, do we? The cutscene which shows us the death of Cailan and Duncan is settled only moments after Alistair and the main character ignited the beacon. Not even minutes later, Cailan is dead. You see soldiers running in despair and brutal slaughter, Cailan's formation already broke. It doesn't look like an even fight at any point we are seeing. So it's really unrealistic to think Loghain's charge would rescue him. What would be the use of charge in the flank of your enemy, when he's not busy at another point of the battle? It's just pointless and Loghain made the rational decision of saving his men from an unnessecary death.

Not quite. It was enough time for Loghain and his troops to escape; moments would not be good enough for such a vast retreat. If that time had been spent in the flanking maneuver, it might have worked, but we will never know.

[Monica21]

Not quite. It was enough time for Loghain and his troops to escape; moments would not be good enough for such a vast retreat. If that time had been spent in the flanking maneuver, it might have worked, but we will never know.

 

There is literally nothing logical in this. You think that emerging from cover and flanking the still-approaching darkspawn, while your enemy has managed to get behind your front lines in the Tower, is the same as retreating from a covered position? The King's forces are already sandwiched. You're rescued by a giant Flemeth-bird. By the time of the retreat there is nothing to save, except of course, Loghain's forces, which he wisely chooses to, you know, save.

 

Again, you're offering zero logical reason here, just a bunch of maybes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You're rescued by a giant Flemeth-bird.

Minor nitpick: I'd be more inclined to believe she went dragon.

[Lady Artifice]

Minor nitpick: I'd be more inclined to believe she went dragon.

 

Pfft, you aren't suggesting Morrigan lied to me, are you? The gall. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Pfft, you aren't suggesting Morrigan lied to me, are you? The gall. 

If I remember correctly Morrigan is repeating what Flemeth told her, and if you aren't already filing her word under "as far as I can throw her" then I don't know what to tell you.

[Lady Artifice]

If I remember correctly Morrigan is repeating what Flemeth told her, and if you aren't already filing her word under "as far as I can throw her" then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Either my joke fell flat or you're just better at being sarcastic than I am...which is very possible. I've got that filing system covered. 

[Elhanan]

If I remember correctly Morrigan is repeating what Flemeth told her, and if you aren't already filing her word under "as far as I can throw her" then I don't know what to tell you.

Morrigan does invite the Warden to ask Flemeth if there are questions. And both tell of the desertion of Loghain and his troops.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Morrigan does invite the Warden to ask Flemeth if there are questions. And both tell of the desertion of Loghain and his troops.

While I'm not sure why I'm bothering to ask this since I wouldn't take Flemeth's word anyway (as previously noted I trust her about as far as I can throw a woman who can turn into a dragon when threatened) does either of them explicitly state that Loghain wasn't justified? I've asked several times and I don't think I've gotten an answer.

 

Either my joke fell flat or you're just better at being sarcastic than I am...which is very possible. I've got that filing system covered.  

What's sarcasm?

[Elhanan]

No, do not believe they mentioned speaking to Loghain at all; simply noticed he quit the field leaving allies to die. When asked of motives, they simply report that this could be politics as usual.

And I find their word more credible because it is matched by multiple witnesses. And at this time; history.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

No, do not believe they mentioned speaking to Loghain at all; simply noticed he quit the field leaving allies to die. When asked of motives, they simply report that this could be politics as usual.

 

Morrigan doesn't comment on it at all. Flemeth appears to, but if you listen closely she doesn't come right out and say what you say she did. (Whether or not that's meant to be significant I couldn't tell you, but either way I'm going to revert to my "how far I can throw a woman who can turn into a dragon" judgement on this.)

 

And I find their word more credible because it is matched by multiple witnesses. And at this time; history.

Neither of those is very good evidence of truth. (Welcome to Thedas.)

[Elhanan]

Neither of those is very good evidence of truth. (Welcome to Thedas.)

Terrific evidence, but not outright proof. But as Loghain usually dies based on other crimes, it is irrelevant.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

*terrible

 

 

But as Loghain usually dies based on other crimes, it is irrelevant.

While I don't particularly like capital punishment, I think in the context of what the Warden knows at the time he/she has to make the judgement call a "how far can I throw you" attitude might be justifiable here too. That's not the same as conceding that Ostagar was the wrong call on his part, though.

[Xetykins]

Meh, there is no right or wrong on Ostagar opinions. There's only bioware's inability to commit to either side because they relish on the drama. There is only just strong opinions at the end of the day. Talking to Threnn, Solas and Varric about it pisses me off to no end. Glad I did not use that as a base of why I always execute him because for me Ostagar has always been a grey area.

[Damdil]

Terrific evidence, but not outright proof. But as Loghain usually dies based on other crimes, it is irrelevant.

 

Evidence for what? A tactical retreat? The king probably faced the bulk of the Darkspawn horde, which you as the Hero of Ferelden only dared to attack with the combined forces of your contractual partners and the troops of the Ferelden high nobility. How should Loghain sucessfully attack them alone? 

 

I think it's maybe the point where you should drop this certain part of the discussion. More or less repeating the statement you began with is not the goal of a discussion and it certainly won't make your opinion more true or logical. I've seen this attitude from you in several threads. If you can't come up with logical and valid arguments, it's pointless trying to convince others of your opinion. Everyone can have his own view point, but this kind of argumentation is really unnerving.

 

 

Meh, there is no right or wrong on Ostagar opinions. There's only bioware's inability to commit to either side because they relish on the drama. There is only just strong opinions at the end of the day. Talking to Threnn, Solas and Varric about it pisses me off to no end. Glad I did not use that as a base of why I always execute him because for me Ostagar has always been a grey area.

 

I'm curious, what did they say? I played Inquisition and probably asked them, but it slipped my mind.

 

I generally disagree with executing Loghain, as I stated in my first post here in this thread. I think the only despicable thing Loghain allowed himself was the selling of elven slaves to these Tevinter bastards. Concerning Arl Howe, it's unclear whether Loghain knew about everything he was up to. Howe is a snake and as member of high nobility, he would be able to intrigue and persue his sick plans without too much resistance anyway. Certain points Loghain states are really valid, if you're thinking about it. He stood up against the Orleasians, fought countless times for his homeland and king while others sat idle and did nothing. He deserves a chance to die a hero's death, if not even to live on (although that's hardly possible without the dark ritual).

[Monica21]

Minor nitpick: I'd be more inclined to believe she went dragon.

 

Actually, I tend to think that she didn't if only because dragon=Archdemon to those with less knowledge than Wardens. I think there would at least have been, "I saw a ****** dragon!" from the survivors. Of course, it could be dragon in stealth mode, who knows.

[Elhanan]

Desertion:... an act of leaving military service or duty without the intention of returning.

Whether or not it was a necessity would be up for a trial to decide. But as it has no bearing on the Landsmeet, Loghain mnay be punished for other crimes indicated in that event.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Desertion:... an act of leaving military service or duty without the intention of returning.

Sounds like the Hawke family we know and love. Loghain, on the other hand, was still a general after he left.

[Elhanan]

Sounds like the Hawke family we know and love. Loghain, on the other hand, was still a general after he left.

A lone general with witnesses....

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A lone general with witnesses....

The point is, he didn't leave the army entirely. Unlike some people.

 

Actually, I tend to think that she didn't if only because dragon=Archdemon to those with less knowledge than Wardens. I think there would at least have been, "I saw a ****** dragon!" from the survivors. Of course, it could be dragon in stealth mode, who knows.

If she had a bird form large enough, she'd probably use it for that reason, but her word to us through Morrigan is the only evidence she has one and I don't know where she'd find one to copy its soul.

[Elhanan]

No; he took some of the army with him, while deserting the rest. Too bad there were witnesses, besides the ones he tried to hunt....