Too bad there were witnesses, besides the ones he tried to hunt....
Oh, right, the ones that testify against him in the Landsmeet and convince the nobles that Ostagar could have been won.
Seriously, Loghain loses nothing because of those witnesses. Why even bring this up in that manner?
Oh, you.
... I'm sarcasm?
No; he took some of the army with him, while deserting the rest. Too bad there were witnesses, besides the ones he tried to hunt....
*shakes head*
You are too caught up in an idealogy on what generals should and shouldn't do that it's become impossible to take any of your arguments on Ostagar seriously.
Name the witnesses, explain why they are credible, and then proceed to explain why everything we've said so far about Ostagar is wrong and Loghain is the monster you're portraying him to be. If you can't do this in regards to Ostagar then your arguments have no ground to stand on.
I'm tired of going back and forth with circular debates. So provide your evidence.
*shakes head*
You are too caught up in an idealogy on what generals should and shouldn't do that it's become impossible to take any of your arguments on Ostagar seriously.
Name the witnesses, explain why they are credible, and then proceed to explain why everything we've said so far about Ostagar is wrong and Loghain is the monster you're portraying him to be. If you can't do this in regards to Ostagar then your arguments have no ground to stand on.
I'm tired of going back and forth with circular debates. So provide your evidence.
Try a search; some already listed in this thread.
You're the one making the claims that Loghain is the traitor because of Ostagar. The burden of proof is on you to gather the evidence that invalidates our arguments and our evidence, and the witnesses that have enough credibility that their testimony holds water.
Again, you are the one making the claim, so it's on you to provide the evidence.
... I'm sarcasm?
You know, it would have been even better of you had said, "What's sarcastic?" Since I only used the adjective, the fact that you were the first to mention the noun kind of ruined it. I'm disappointed, tbh. 
You know, it would have been even better of you had said, "What's sarcastic?" Since I only used the adjective, the fact that you were the first to mention the noun kind of ruined it. I'm disappointed, tbh.
Sure. But we all know that no one on the forums are ever sarcastic, right?
Desertion:... an act of leaving military service or duty without the intention of returning
Good thing Loghain made it a point to expressly declare his intention to continue to fight the Darkspawn, and will even say that his intention was to push the Darkspawn back in the south if recruited.
Seems like your dictionary definitions prove Loghain right rather then wrong.
Sure. But we all know that no one on the forums are ever sarcastic, right?
Hey, he's the one asking, you know. I think he's just irritated that this time I started being sarcastic first, and now he has to show off how much better he is at it. lol.
Hey, he's the one asking, you know. I think he's just irritated that this time I started being sarcastic first, and now he has to show off how much better he is at it. lol.
Perish the thought. Who would do such a horrible thing?
I surrender, Oh King of sarcasm. Like, for serious. 
Is it more honorable to lead an army to what you're convinced will be its death?
According to the Field Marshals in WWI, the matter is moot, because obviously this time will work and it'll be drinks in Berlin by supper...
Desertion:... an act of leaving military service or duty without the intention of returning.
Whether or not it was a necessity would be up for a trial to decide. But as it has no bearing on the Landsmeet, Loghain mnay be punished for other crimes indicated in that event.
Exactly, he should have at least had a court martial to decide whether or not the desertion was valid or not?
In his favour, he saved the lives of his men and saved them from going into a meatgrinder they had no way of coming out from unscathed, only to probably require all of them, both his forces going in and Cailan's, to force a retreat anyway?
But he also disobeyed orders, refused to enter the battle to attempt to save his own King, nor did he attempt to rescue the beleagured forces that were in the thick of it, who desperately counted on his counterattack to provide them with some much needed relief?
Sounds like the Hawke family we know and love. Loghain, on the other hand, was still a general after he left.
Except that Hawke, Aveline, Alistair and (possibly) Wynne were in the middle of the fighting, and were part of those forces that Loghain abandoned, the ones that were on the ground and desperately waiting on him to lend support when the beacon was lit. Instead they were left with no backup and were forced to withdrawal because they realised that no help was coming and they'd been left to die.
In comparison, the forces with Loghain never even lifted or muddied their blades before they deserted en-masse?
<snip>Some idealized versions of how battles work<snip>
If I had time to post a longer reply, I certainly would. But all I'll say is that sometimes war is [...] (well, most of the time, actually) and people die and you can't do a damn thing about it.
Modifié par BioWareMod02, 09 mars 2015 - 12:04 .
Edited for inappropriate language
Except that Hawke, Aveline, Alistair and (possibly) Wynne were in the middle of the fighting, and were part of those forces that Loghain abandoned, the ones that were on the ground and desperately waiting on him to lend support when the beacon was lit. Instead they were left with no backup and were forced to withdrawal because they realised that no help was coming and they'd been left to die.
In comparison, the forces with Loghain never even lifted or muddied their blades before they deserted en-masse?
If you're just joining this thread, I've never called Alistair or Wynne deserters for the same reason I'm not calling Loghain that: they didn't leave the country after the battle, instead putting themselves back at its service as they saw fit. Hawke and Aveline, on the other hand? I can't see how they aren't.
Exactly, he should have at least had a court martial to decide whether or not the desertion was valid or not?
In his favour, he saved the lives of his men and saved them from going into a meatgrinder they had no way of coming out from unscathed, only to probably require all of them, both his forces going in and Cailan's, to force a retreat anyway?
But he also disobeyed orders, refused to enter the battle to attempt to save his own King, nor did he attempt to rescue the beleagured forces that were in the thick of it, who desperately counted on his counterattack to provide them with some much needed relief?
Yeah, I think you're right.
If I had time to post a longer reply, I certainly would. But all I'll say is that sometimes war is [...] (well, most of the time, actually) and people die and you can't do a damn thing about it.
Edited by a moderator for language. LOL Farking freaking moderators. (I meant the "s" word, for those who don't know.)
Edited by a moderator for language. LOL Farking freaking moderators. (I meant the "s" word, for those who don't know.)
Inb4 modedit.
Inb4 modedit.
I love that they let threads about racism and homophobia go on and on but worry about a exclamation point.
I love that they let threads about racism and homophobia go on and on but worry about a exclamation point.
You're probably breaking a forum rule by posting that. (Not that I think you're wrong per se, since I've seen those threads.)
If I had time to post a longer reply, I certainly would. But all I'll say is that sometimes war is [...] (well, most of the time, actually) and people die and you can't do a damn thing about it.
If that snipped comment was directed at my WWI comment, that was me being facetious? Although it is somewhat apt now I think about it, since Cailain's bravado is exactly the same as those armchair generals in WWI, assuming that they'd beat the Darkspawn and be back home in time for Wintersend?
If not, then as I pointed out, Loghain wasn't wrong in not wanting to send his men into the fray to die pointlessly, but the point remains that he was ordered to do so by Cailan, the man who was his King and superior officer, yet he chose to willfully ignore that order? Isn't that the entire definition of what qualifies as mutiny?
And it's not like the battle was going wrong and that the troops were out of position, so his flank wouldn't have worked? We're told in the war summit that the battle plan was that Cailan's forces would lure them in, funnelling them into that narrow valley, so that Loghain could come behind and spring the trap. All he needed to do was to move in... but he didn't?
And while I have no military experience myself, nor claim such, I'm fairly certain that sometimes troops are called upon by the higher ups to do something that's got a likely chance of getting them killed, but unless that order is illegal, then they still have to carry it out?
If you're just joining this thread, I've never called Alistair or Wynne deserters for the same reason I'm not calling Loghain that: they didn't leave the country after the battle, instead putting themselves back at its service as they saw fit. Hawke and Aveline, on the other hand? I can't see how they aren't.
It's hard to call someone a deserter of the King's Army though, when that army doesn't exist anymore, except as a pile of bodies littering the Ostagar battlefield and a few battered survivors? Unless we count the other half of that army, who are serving under the banner of the very man who let all that happen?
Furthermore, it's a bit more complicated in the case of Aveline, as we later find out that it'd been assumed she'd died in the battle, so as far as anyone in Ferelden was concerned, she'd been legally dead for the last several years before the oversight was discovered and corrected? They also offered her a position back in the army, so they clearly didn't seem that concerned with any potential desertion issues?
Although, say we agree that Loghain didn't desert, even though he left the battle when it appear to be lost?
Doesn't that same logic also apply to Aveline and Hawke leaving the country? After all, with the horde marching unchecked because half the country was too busy fighting each other to deal with them, wouldn't you say that Ferelden also appeared to be a lost cause at that point?
You're probably breaking a forum rule by posting that. (Not that I think you're wrong per se, since I've seen those threads.)
Oh, probably. Meh.
If that snipped comment was directed at my WWI comment, that was me being facetious?
Sorry. I typed that at 6:30 in the morning.
Sorry. I typed that at 6:30 in the morning.
No worries, my fault for rapidly switching gears from being flippant to serious in the same post? 
He's never made it out of the Landsmeet in my playthru's , can't stand him he betrays Cailan blame's the warden's start's a civil war hire's assassin's to hunt you down , poison's the Arl of redcliffe , allow's the Cousland's to be all but wiped out and don't forget the money he was generating from selling elve's into slavery . I alway's take pleasure executing him scum that he is .
While I agree with you, the books and comics are considered canon and are therefore still fair game to reference for plot points such as these.
That depends on if you're asking the initial question in hindsight or as the Warden stands over Loghain with sword in hand. I've been approaching it from the latter.
That depends on if you're asking the initial question in hindsight or as the Warden stands over Loghain with sword in hand. I've been approaching it from the latter.
I've been trying to address both.
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