That depends on if you're asking the initial question in hindsight or as the Warden stands over Loghain with sword in hand. I've been approaching it from the latter.
I doubt the Warden wouldn't have heard some tales of the Hero of River Dane. One would think a City Elf would've heard tales of the Night Elves, or a Dwarf Noble/Human Noble tales of Loghain's prowess as a general (especially since the HN's parents are war veterans themselves).
I doubt the Warden wouldn't have heard some tales of the Hero of River Dane. One would think a City Elf would've heard tales of the Night Elves, or a Dwarf Noble/Human Noble tales of Loghain's prowess as a general (especially since the HN's parents are war veterans themselves).
True. In fact, considering Jowan mentions his name with an air of awe in the conversation in Redcliffe dungeons, I'd say the only two groups who might not have heard much of him would be dwarf commoners and the Dalish.
Edited by a moderator for language. LOL Farking freaking moderators. (I meant the "s" word, for those who don't know.)
Did you get a warning point? I got one =P.
I think it's a stupid rule. Not just for the reason you stated where priorities seem to be skewed, but they fail to take into account context. Frankly as long as I'm not using such language to insult a person, I fail to see a problem with it.
Doesn't that same logic also apply to Aveline and Hawke leaving the country? After all, with the horde marching unchecked because half the country was too busy fighting each other to deal with them, wouldn't you say that Ferelden also appeared to be a lost cause at that point?
Aveline and Hawke planned to leave Ferelden just after Ostagar, at a time when the nation could still be saved. There was no civil war going on at the time. Loghain issued a tactical retreat with the intention of addressing the Darkspawn threat again when he had the needed manpower/authority/resources at hand to push them back in the south.
The difference between the two is that Loghain had every intention of continuing the fight against the Darkspawn despite Ostagar, while Aveline and Hawke fled the nation with their family because of Ostagar.
What Aveline and Hawke did was rather selfish, because they wanted to protect their own. Noble, to be sure, but how many other soldiers have families of their own yet they still continue to fight on?
but the point remains that he was ordered to do so by Cailan, the man who was his King and superior officer, yet he chose to willfully ignore that order?
No, he wasn't. The cutscene shows that it's Loghain's battle strategy, and not Cailan's. The one who was following orders in this scenario is Cailan, because it has to go according to Loghain's plan (and even then Cailan still manages to royally **** things up). Repeatedly we're told Cailan wants nothing to do with the strategy meetings and that he just wants a "battle the bards will sing of for centuries".
And to be honest, using Ostagar as it should've been used -- with the forces all on the inside of the fortress, like Helm's Deep, rather then on the outside -- isn't a particularly "glorious" battle. Loghain had to come up with a battle plan that would satisfy Cailan's vanity and gloryhounding while also make the best use of their forces, with the knowledge that the Darkspawn have been increasing in number with each engagement.
Remember, this wasn't Cailan's strategy. It was Loghain's strategy.
And it's not like the battle was going wrong and that the troops were out of position, so his flank wouldn't have worked?
But it was going wrong. Not only did Cailan screw it up in the beginning by charging out into the open -- being told to lure the Darkspawn to you doesn't mean you need to meet them in the open valley, especially not when they had no problem coming to you in the first place -- but he showed his ineptitude as a commander by using only one volley of arrows (which isn't going to stop the Darkspawn much) and wasting the Mabari troops which are better served as support troops alongside the soldiers.
Besides that, the Darkspawn invaded Ishal. They had taken control of the tower and us cutting our way through them wasn't even a permanent thing as we're quickly overrun after lighting the beacon. From Ishal they poured out to the rest of Ostagar and you can see the soldiers on the bridge fighting Darkspawn during the cutscene.
And the thing is that since Ostagar is overrun, this means that Cailan's forces are now exposed to being attack from behind. It was bad enough that they were exposed to being attack on three sides by Cailan's idiotic charge out of cover -- when the walls of Ostagar would protect their left and right flanks if they'd remained in place -- but now they're fully exposed.
And you can see that the horde goes all the way back to the Wilds. The point of the beacon was to signal the troops under Loghain's command when the Darkspawn in the valley were fully committed, but they weren't. They kept coming.
If Loghain had charged to save a force of men that was already cracking under the pressure, he would've been sandwiched between the Darkspawn coming from the front and back, who would then move to take him from the sides as well.
The battle had gone wrong.
Aveline and Hawke planned to leave Ferelden just after Ostagar, at a time when the nation could still be saved. There was no civil war going on at the time. Loghain issued a tactical retreat with the intention of addressing the Darkspawn threat again when he had the needed manpower/authority/resources at hand to push them back in the south.
The difference between the two is that Loghain had every intention of continuing the fight against the Darkspawn despite Ostagar, while Aveline and Hawke fled the nation with their family because of Ostagar.
What Aveline and Hawke did was rather selfish, because they wanted to protect their own. Noble, to be sure, but how many other soldiers have families of their own yet they still continue to fight on?
But by the time the Warden arrives at Lothering, the people there are already telling us that Loghain has declared himself Regent and the bannorn are already up in arms about this, so the idea that there's going to be a Civil War is probably a near-certainty at this point? Hawke's family apparently left Lothering just before the horde struck it, while Aveline hung around to meet up with Wesley, so they've had enough time after Ostagar to see how the wind was going?
I can't really fault them for wanting to leave the country, given how no-one seems overly concerned with the actual Darkspawn at this point, but rather squabbling over the throne? Coupled with how we're told that there is apparently a sea of refugee camps outside Kirkwall and all the other Free March cities, it's not like they're the only people who decided to leave?
But it was going wrong. Not only did Cailan screw it up in the beginning by charging out into the open -- being told to lure the Darkspawn to you doesn't mean you need to meet them in the open valley, especially not when they had no problem coming to you in the first place -- but he showed his ineptitude as a commander by using only one volley of arrows (which isn't going to stop the Darkspawn much) and wasting the Mabari troops which are better served as support troops alongside the soldiers.
You're right, the entire strategy mirrors that of the Battle of Thermopylae, having the Ferelden side go on the defensive and letting the darkspawn come to them, without risk of them being able to flank them due to the narrow nature of the valley. Cailan admittedly screwed up and ruined that by pulling a Leeroy Jenkins and charging to meet them, when he should have held.
Besides that, the Darkspawn invaded Ishal. They had taken control of the tower and us cutting our way through them wasn't even a permanent thing as we're quickly overrun after lighting the beacon. From Ishal they poured out to the rest of Ostagar and you can see the soldiers on the bridge fighting Darkspawn during the cutscene.
And the thing is that since Ostagar is overrun, this means that Cailan's forces are now exposed to being attack from behind. It was bad enough that they were exposed to being attack on three sides by Cailan's idiotic charge out of cover -- when the walls of Ostagar would protect their left and right flanks if they'd remained in place -- but now they're fully exposed.
I'll admit I forgot about the Tower of Ishal, as even with the Warden moving through and slaying the Darkspawn as they tried to reach the beacon, you're right that it was pretty much overrun. RtO showed that the breach to the underground tunnels allowed direct access from the battlefield below to the ruins above, which would have allowed them to bypass the defensive line entirely.
And you can see that the horde goes all the way back to the Wilds. The point of the beacon was to signal the troops under Loghain's command when the Darkspawn in the valley were fully committed, but they weren't. They kept coming.
If Loghain had charged to save a force of men that was already cracking under the pressure, he would've been sandwiched between the Darkspawn coming from the front and back, who would then move to take him from the sides as well.
The battle had gone wrong.
Yeah, the problem was that no-one estimated the size of the horde that would attack and they got over-confident because the first few battles were simply large raiding parties? Like King Cnut, they believed that they could hold back the tide, when they couldn't. Instead, they believed that when the sea rolled back, they'd beaten them, not realising that this was the sign that a huge tidal wave was about to come crashing down on their heads?
Although, if we're being fair, both Cailan and Loghain were at fault for not realising this. Cailan was overconfident due to his bravado, whereas Loghain underestimated the enemy force because he refused to pay any attention the Wardens who were desperately trying to tell everyone that there was an Archdemon leading the horde and that a Blight was about to burst up and swallow them at any minute?
I completely agree that there was no way the battle could have been won, given the enemy numbers and the mistakes made there.
But, I still have to wonder why Loghain didn't hash out more contingencies for the battle, if everything got FUBAR? Unless we're left to assume that he actually did have some backup exit plans in place and that's how those few who did survive Ostagar managed to get out alright, despite being pinned in like they were?
I think the problem when it comes to figuring out how Ostagar went as wrong as it did, is that neither side is particularly reliable in their accounts, since half those tend to be bitter that they were left to die, while the other half defend the retreat as being the only thing they could do? And sadly, the ones who tend to defend the retreat in Origins tend to be moments from trying to murder the Warden, so we're not particularly inclined to listen?
But by the time the Warden arrives at Lothering, the people there are already telling us that Loghain has declared himself Regent and the bannorn are already up in arms about this, so the idea that there's going to be a Civil War is probably a near-certainty at this point? Hawke's family apparently left Lothering just before the horde struck it, while Aveline hung around to meet up with Wesley, so they've had enough time after Ostagar to see how the wind was going?
I know this is splitting hairs, but Hawke probably fled Ostagar straight to Lothering, with no intention of staying with the army. The same for Aveline. I'm not going to bash on Hawke because I love my Hawke and the writers had to get her out of Ferelden, but if we're assuming that she was in the battle we have to assume that she was fighting which would put her in Cailan's force. (I don't recall if it's explicitly stated in DA2.) That means maybe tagging along after Loghain's troops, but never rejoining them.
I guess I'm just saying that there was a decision made very soon after Ostagar, probably before she got to Lothering, that they were going to run for it. It's only outside Lothering when Bethany is wondering where you'll even go and Mom suggests Kirkwall.
But by the time the Warden arrives at Lothering, the people there are already telling us that Loghain has declared himself Regent and the bannorn are already up in arms about this, so the idea that there's going to be a Civil War is probably a near-certainty at this point? Hawke's family apparently left Lothering just before the horde struck it, while Aveline hung around to meet up with Wesley, so they've had enough time after Ostagar to see how the wind was going?
For the bit on the Warden, I think we need to take into account the injuries they were recovering from after getting overwhelmed by darkspawn after lighting the beacon. As for Hawke and Carver...hard to say.
They probably got scattered at Ostagar, probably on the front lines and had to find a way to escape the horde. With Aveline talking later in the game about how the beacon was lit and nothing came from Loghain, I think it's fair to say she was on the front lines and she brings up Captain Varel upon recognizing Carver was there so it's also safe to say that non-mage Hawke and Carver were there as well.
After getting scattered, somehow avoiding the darkspawn, and probably avoiding Loghain's troops, they got back to Lothering, where they then flee just before the darkspawn hit it.
But we know from the bandits outside of Lothering that the Warden was also beating some scattered survivors and Chasind who were trickling in.
Hmm. Taking into account that it would take a few days of marching the army from Lothering to Denerim, the timing seems off. Unless Loghain gave orders to Cauthrien to prepare the army at a certain point while he rode ahead to Denerim to try and gather reinforcements.
That would make sense.
Although, if we're being fair, both Cailan and Loghain were at fault for not realising this. Cailan was overconfident due to his bravado, whereas Loghain underestimated the enemy force because he refused to pay any attention the Wardens who were desperately trying to tell everyone that there was an Archdemon leading the horde and that a Blight was about to burst up and swallow them at any minute?
Another point of fairness. Most of the scouting parties leading up to the battle failed to return, or returned with badly wounded. From that one guy we save, to the scouts we hear about from those two soldiers near the captain talking about darkspawn behind the tents about only two scouts came back and one had to be killed because his blood was turning black.
Then there's that scout we see at the infirmary who tries telling us the size of the horde itself but he was rambling so much that no one was taking him seriously.
I think the problem when it comes to figuring out how Ostagar went as wrong as it did, is that neither side is particularly reliable in their accounts, since half those tend to be bitter that they were left to die, while the other half defend the retreat as being the only thing they could do? And sadly, the ones who tend to defend the retreat in Origins tend to be moments from trying to murder the Warden, so we're not particularly inclined to listen?
I keep thinking back to those soldiers we meet in Lothering and how he says he is not the blind one, that knight who challenges us to a duel in Denerim but tries to act with honor.
I mean, sure we were at Ostagar but neither our Warden or Alistair was actually in a position to understand how the battle was going beyond "we're completely overwhelmed and we missed the signal. Light the beacon and hope for the best." And Alistair isn't an unbiased source. He is suffering survivor's guilty and he is looking for something, anything to blame for Duncan dying, a man he saw as the only real family he ever actually had.
It's quite possible that our Warden and Alistair really are blind, or at least limited in vision on how Ostagar went down. Suffering selective tunnel vision if you will to explain how things went down so badly.
But by the time the Warden arrives at Lothering, the people there are already telling us that Loghain has declared himself Regent and the bannorn are already up in arms about this, so the idea that there's going to be a Civil War is probably a near-certainty at this point? Hawke's family apparently left Lothering just before the horde struck it, while Aveline hung around to meet up with Wesley, so they've had enough time after Ostagar to see how the wind was going?
What the others said.
I can't really fault them for wanting to leave the country, given how no-one seems overly concerned with the actual Darkspawn at this point, but rather squabbling over the throne? Coupled with how we're told that there is apparently a sea of refugee camps outside Kirkwall and all the other Free March cities, it's not like they're the only people who decided to leave?
Oh I know they're not the only ones who decided to leave, and I don't fault them for why they did it. But the fact that other people did it doesn't change the selfishness inherent in it.
If you deserted the army to save your own skin or the skin of your family, while leaving other people to face those horrors, then it's selfish plain and simple. I can understand why one did it and can empathize with it, but it's not something that I can just consider a good thing.
If a peasant did it, that's one thing. They're fleeing their homeland but they were never in a position to protect it from the start to begin with. It's different for a soldier.
It's like the Awakening soldier who deserted, really.
Yeah, the problem was that no-one estimated the size of the horde that would attack and they got over-confident because the first few battles were simply large raiding parties?
I wouldn't say large raiding parties, at least for how I believe that might be numerically (you might have a different number). Formidable forces to be sure, but perhaps no larger then maybe the size of a few Fereldan nobles collective might. Maybe an Arl's forces.
Growing, to be sure, but not tens of thousands of Darkspawn like we see in Ostagar
Although, if we're being fair, both Cailan and Loghain were at fault for not realising this. Cailan was overconfident due to his bravado, whereas Loghain underestimated the enemy force because he refused to pay any attention the Wardens who were desperately trying to tell everyone that there was an Archdemon leading the horde and that a Blight was about to burst up and swallow them at any minute?
Oh undoubtedly both share the blame in Ostagar's failure. And while I agree Loghain underestimated the threat, I disagree that the Wardens were desperately trying to tell everyone an Archdemon was there and Loghain just failed to pay attention. All Duncan said was that he believed it to be a Blight, led by the Archdemon, with every ounce of his being. That sounds a lot like guesswork, even to me when I know the truth.
The Wardens subscribe to a mantra of "whatever it takes to end the Blight" but don't really live up to it. They don't tell Cailan/Loghain the secrets of their order, nor do they think to lie about having seen evidence of the Archdemon in the Deep Roads (since that was Duncan's mission in the DN origin, to find evidence) to get them to believe it.
Hell, there was a great comic on tumblr that demonstrated how much they fail at that mantra. Clarel goes "Wardens do what we must to end the Blight" and Loghain goes "Except cross the border because you're too scared to anger the Teyrn".
http://tewr-monkeyof...htly-approves-i
there we are.
But, I still have to wonder why Loghain didn't hash out more contingencies for the battle, if everything got FUBAR? Unless we're left to assume that he actually did have some backup exit plans in place and that's how those few who did survive Ostagar managed to get out alright, despite being pinned in like they were?
We don't know that he didn't plan out multiple contingency plans. We know he planned out one for his army to get out of there if things went to hell, but we don't know that he didn't plan out others (and that they may have gone to hell because of what happened during Ostagar).
It's worth pointing out though that Wynne was helping survivors around Ostagar after the battle, once the Darkspawn had pulled back to their lairs. She tells you this in the Circle quest if you talk to her after recruitment but before facing Uldred.
I think the problem when it comes to figuring out how Ostagar went as wrong as it did, is that neither side is particularly reliable in their accounts, since half those tend to be bitter that they were left to die, while the other half defend the retreat as being the only thing they could do? And sadly, the ones who tend to defend the retreat in Origins tend to be moments from trying to murder the Warden, so we're not particularly inclined to listen?
And if they don't try and murder us, we're given the option to kill them because they're "loyal Loghain stooges", more or less. So yeah, it's a problem with how the narrative operates, trying to goad you into accepting that Ostagar was a betrayal for a battle that could've been won. Anyone who says otherwise can lay face down in a pool of their own blood, by our own design.
Cauthrien and Loghain both maintain Ostagar's retreat was necessary, but we can kill them. Landry and the soldiers in Lothering and Imrek all try to kill us, though Landry at least does so with honor. Imrek was an idiot though and I'm glad to be rid of him because he was a horrible ambassador (probably a soldier and not a noble, which is why Loghain picked him. He favors the direct approach).
We get no one like Threnn in the narrative whose position we can't rebuke by way of the sword, and it suffers for it. If there was even just a few people in the game who gave us that viewpoint and we couldn't kill them, it would do wonders for the narrative.
Alas, it's why I view Origins as giving too much of a power fantasy to the players. It doesn't really challenge them on their decisions or mindsets.
I know this is splitting hairs, but Hawke probably fled Ostagar straight to Lothering, with no intention of staying with the army. The same for Aveline. I'm not going to bash on Hawke because I love my Hawke and the writers had to get her out of Ferelden, but if we're assuming that she was in the battle we have to assume that she was fighting which would put her in Cailan's force. (I don't recall if it's explicitly stated in DA2.) That means maybe tagging along after Loghain's troops, but never rejoining them.
I guess I'm just saying that there was a decision made very soon after Ostagar, probably before she got to Lothering, that they were going to run for it. It's only outside Lothering when Bethany is wondering where you'll even go and Mom suggests Kirkwall.
Yeah, Hawke and Aveline were apparently in Cailan's forces.
Aveline mentions the horrible sensation of seeing the Beacon lit, only to realise to have that hope replaced by the sudden dawning realisation that Loghain's troops weren't coming, while Hawke's (aggressive) response to Flemeth when she asks whether their King won't miss them is to bitterly respond;
"King Cailan was betrayed, there is nothing for me here..."
But you're right, I doubt it took them long after the battle to consider scarpering from the country. Since it took long enough for Loghain to march the army to Denerim, declare himself Regent and the news to trickle back again, before the horde reached it, I'd say that was all the push they needed to decide to flee. From the beginning of DA2, Varric comments that they barely escaped Lothering in time, so it seems they hung around until the last possible minute?
Oh undoubtedly both share the blame in Ostagar's failure. And while I agree Loghain underestimated the threat, I disagree that the Wardens were desperately trying to tell everyone an Archdemon was there and Loghain just failed to pay attention. All Duncan said was that he believed it to be a Blight, led by the Archdemon, with every ounce of his being. That sounds a lot like guesswork, even to me when I know the truth.
The Wardens subscribe to a mantra of "whatever it takes to end the Blight" but don't really live up to it. They don't tell Cailan/Loghain the secrets of their order, nor do they think to lie about having seen evidence of the Archdemon in the Deep Roads (since that was Duncan's mission in the DN origin, to find evidence) to get them to believe it.
When you ask Alistair after your first bad dream, he says that this is how the Wardens knew that it was a true Blight. When you ask why Duncan didn't tried to tell them, he points out that he did, but had unfortunately no tangible proof to give anyone? It's not exactly hard to see why they might have been incredulous if he had, as to quote Saren in the first ME game, "Are we admitting bad dreams as evidence now?"
While Duncan could have told them about the dreams and explained the Grey Wardens and their connection to the Darkspawn, that wouldn't have been a good option either? He probably knows that Loghain is already suspicious of them and finding out that all Warden's big dark secret is that they are essentially high-functioning ghouls, wouldn't exactly do much to engender trust with him? Plus Cailan would likely balk at this revelation as well, it'd really sour the heroic figures he sees them as and as he's there only real source of support in Ferelden, that'd not be good for their PR?
What I meant was that, while not shouting it from the heavens like a manic doomsday crier on a soapbox, they did try, but Duncan's adherence to the secrecy vows kinda stymied how effective this urgent warning was at coming across?
While Duncan could have told them about the dreams and explained the Grey Wardens and their connection to the Darkspawn, that wouldn't have been a good option either? He probably knows that Loghain is already suspicious of them and finding out that all Warden's big dark secret is that they are essentially high-functioning ghouls, wouldn't exactly do much to engender trust with him?
At one point in time, I would've agreed with you, but it's better to take the risk and be open and upfront then it is to keep secrets from the heads of state. Plus, Loghain seems to have no issue knowing the secrets of the Order when he joins, so he might be more amenable to the idea if he was told. Part of why he's so distrustful of the Wardens is due to their secrecy (another part is due to their checkered history). But to keep it from him and Cailan is silly.
Especially since not twenty years prior, Duncan and the rest of his Warden friends blabbed their secrets to Maric.
Why we are forced to kill him? Why we cannot imprison him?
DAO the Stupid of the Landsmeet.................
Why we are forced to kill him? Why we cannot imprison him?
DAO the Stupid of the Landsmeet.................
Ferelden is supposed to not be big on long prison terms. Otherwise I probably would have done that at least once.
Why we are forced to kill him? Why we cannot imprison him?
DAO the Stupid of the Landsmeet.................
This is a medieval age were treason always equals death.
This is a medieval age were treason always equals death.
As well as any other number of "offenses" such as passing a noble while he's having a bad day. 
As well as any other number of "offenses" such as passing a noble while he's having a bad day.
Yeah, nobles tend to have a Cake or Death? attitude most of the time when dealing with other people...
Alas, it's why I view Origins as giving too much of a power fantasy to the players. It doesn't really challenge them on their decisions or mindsets.
I actually disagree with this.
For example--you go through the game with this mantra: Wardens are independent, not affiliated with any nation, don't take sides, all they care about is the blight.
But if you pay attention to what you actually DO during the game, it's really obvious that you throw this idealistic mantra out the window almost from the beginning. EVERY major quest line forces the Warden to take sides, step into a political morass, and meddle.
What's more--by the time you finally figure this out, you've probably played it through a couple of times, feeling very blithely content with yourself & your high-mindedness. I know I had a moment where I really felt like I'd been slapped in the face: I'd been playing as a hypocrite all along! A self-righteous, deluded hypocrite!
That's when I started sympathizing with Loghain about the Orlesian Wardens. Who KNOWS what kind of bargains they made for the greater good.
I actually disagree with this.
For example--you go through the game with this mantra: Wardens are independent, not affiliated with any nation, don't take sides, all they care about is the blight.
But if you pay attention to what you actually DO during the game, it's really obvious that you throw this idealistic mantra out the window almost from the beginning. EVERY major quest line forces the Warden to take sides, step into a political morass, and meddle.
What's more--by the time you finally figure this out, you've probably played it through a couple of times, feeling very blithely content with yourself & your high-mindedness. I know I had a moment where I really felt like I'd been slapped in the face: I'd been playing as a hypocrite all along! A self-righteous, deluded hypocrite!
That's when I started sympathizing with Loghain about the Orlesian Wardens. Who KNOWS what kind of bargains they made for the greater good.
For some reason, I never had this problem. Yes, my characters are Wardens, BUT before they were Wardens, they had other relationships, connections and identities. Those aren't so easily set aside. My canon warden got hit especially hard by this. He's an elf, and a mage, and a Grey Warden. By anyone's measure, he should not be in a position to hold lands or command anyone's fealty. Yet, by virtue of his being the Warden-Commander of Ferelden, he got Amaranthine dumped in his lap during Awakening. He actually conscripted Nathaniel as much because he needed someone with the training to rule as he did out of a sense that Nathaniel needed to learn the truth of his father's actions.
Bottom line, he's very uncomfortable as a leader and had Loghain not sold the city elves into slavery, I think he would have spared the man just to have someone else who could deal with the political side of things. Someone who actually DOES know how to lead men and rule lands.
For some reason, I never had this problem. Yes, my characters are Wardens, BUT before they were Wardens, they had other relationships, connections and identities. Those aren't so easily set aside. My canon warden got hit especially hard by this. He's an elf, and a mage, and a Grey Warden. By anyone's measure, he should not be in a position to hold lands or command anyone's fealty. Yet, by virtue of his being the Warden-Commander of Ferelden, he got Amaranthine dumped in his lap during Awakening. He actually conscripted Nathaniel as much because he needed someone with the training to rule as he did out of a sense that Nathaniel needed to learn the truth of his father's actions.
Bottom line, he's very uncomfortable as a leader and had Loghain not sold the city elves into slavery, I think he would have spared the man just to have someone else who could deal with the political side of things. Someone who actually DOES know how to lead men and rule lands.
I'm getting at something a little broader. It's easy enough to say, "Okay, my Warden has X background, and that's going to tip the balance in one way or another." But there's no Warden that will be personally invested in the fate of the Dwarves, the Ferelden government, the Circle of Magi AND the elves of the Brecilian Forest--and yet we meddle with all of those. We HAVE to choose between Bhelen & Harrowmont; there is no option to say, "Oh, yeah, well--Wardens don't get involved so I'll just wait for you two to sort things out. Catch up when you're ready."
The post I was responding to pointed out that the game doesn't challenge "our decisions or our mindsets". Indeed, it's true that there's nobody to pop in at your Archdemon-is-dead-party to say, "Oh, btw, you're full of it." But if you pay attention, the game is very clear about the difference between the stated mission of the Gray Wardens & the actual behavior of the Gray Wardens.
I wasn't thinking of it that way, obviously, but you're absolutely right. One could argue that this time doesn't count since meddling in politics was necessary to get people to honor their treaties and thus to stop the Fifth Blight, but that seems to raise more questions than it answers. The Warden influence in Ferelden politics, for instance, won't fade away any time soon.
Which, come to think of it, is as good a reason as any to spare Loghain. If he survives the Joining (which we know he will) you'd get someone with experience dealing with nobles on your side.
Modifié par springacres, 22 mars 2015 - 04:20 .
I wasn't thinking of it that way, obviously, but you're absolutely right. One could argue that this time doesn't count since meddling in politics was necessary to get people to honor their treaties and thus to stop the Fifth Blight, but that seems to raise more questions than it answers. The Warden influence in Ferelden politics, for instance, won't fade away any time soon.
Which, come to think of it, is as good a reason as any to spare Loghain. If he survives the Joining (which we know he will) you'd get someone with experience dealing with nobles on your side.
Once I found out about the books--and realized that the purpose of the pre-Origins books seems to be, specifically, to backwards-engineer most of Loghain's decisions--I looked at the game in a whole new way. I really boggle at the idea of creating this amazing, heroic character (he's pretty fantastic in The Stolen Throne) only to tear him down in every way imaginable--personal breakdown, public humiliation, rejection by his own family, probable execution. That must be so painful for the creator--especially since the books are extra, most players won't read them, and all they'll be exposed to is the villain story.
So then I thought, okay, if there's a whole other angle to the thing if you read the books... what about the game itself? It's possible to play through the whole thing and feel pretty good about your choices, but once I started questioning them, I realized that the Warden's story is more complicated than I'd realized originally. The Warden arrives at the Landsmeet with dirty hands & my assumption that I was a Good Guy had kept me from seeing the obvious.
Also: c'mon, what's Loghain supposed to think--the Orlesian Wardens march with chevaliers & are held back at the border & then, soon after, a wet-behind-the-ears Warden starts strolling all across Ferelden in the company of an Orlesian BARD, a Qunari warrior-spy, and a Theirin prince? That's REALLY SUSPICIOUS.
This really explains how Loghain is able to come across as such a complex character, even to someone like me who hasn't yet read the books. For a writer, I would think it would be far easier to simply cast someone as a villain and not bother too much with motivations. Loghain, however, is a strong candidate for most complex character in the Dragon Age series based on the quality of writing that went into his character. In many ways, he seems to be a lot like an older, more experienced version of the Warden, even down to the paranoia which could be considered analogous to the Warden's Calling.
It's refreshing to have a game in which the question of what to do with the main antagonist has no real right or wrong answer.
I actually disagree with this.
For example--you go through the game with this mantra: Wardens are independent, not affiliated with any nation, don't take sides, all they care about is the blight.
But if you pay attention to what you actually DO during the game, it's really obvious that you throw this idealistic mantra out the window almost from the beginning. EVERY major quest line forces the Warden to take sides, step into a political morass, and meddle.
What's more--by the time you finally figure this out, you've probably played it through a couple of times, feeling very blithely content with yourself & your high-mindedness. I know I had a moment where I really felt like I'd been slapped in the face: I'd been playing as a hypocrite all along! A self-righteous, deluded hypocrite!
That's when I started sympathizing with Loghain about the Orlesian Wardens. Who KNOWS what kind of bargains they made for the greater good.
True, but that's not what I was getting at. It's something that I've pointed out before however in the years I've been on this forum but that's something that relies on the more savvy players to grasp -- and even then, despite the arguing done to point it out, many are quick to gloss over it for whatever reason.
But there are times where the narrative tries to argue that what you did was right, when it was wrong. Case in point, Anora and the "betrayal" that happens -- whether it's in Howe's Estate or at the Landsmeet. If at the former, then it's because the Warden was a dolt who did precisely what Anora asked us not to do.
Yet the companions end up going "HOW DARE SHE BETRAY US". This coming from Leliana who was invested in Orlesian politics and should know that we were the idiots in this scenario, or Zevran who was assigned to kill political people. Both of them should know that we did the exact thing Anora wanted to not have happen and put her in a dangerous situation..
This is what I mean. Our choices are deemed prim and proper by the narrative, when they're not, and thus the players believe they were right because they fail to see things. Their power fantasy ends up being lofted to higher heights.
The Warden can engage in criminal acts like murder (Denerim but also throughout the game) and flout Chantry authority (Mage's Collective), things that Loghain is condemned for and are seen as irredeemable acts but for us it's different because "We're Wardens". The companions may make a remark or two saying they dislike a choice or two, but ultimately it falls flat because they're not doing anything to truly challenge us. And on the rare instances that they take a stand, players still find them to be acting like dolts because "We're Wardens".
It's a no-win scenario. Either the game challenges the player and people just go "LOL nah" or it doesn't and the players go "LOL we're always right."
For instance, selling out the Elves to Caladrius should have Zevran refuse to work with us any longer. Considering he was enslaved by the Antivan Crows, he should have that be a breaking point, pointing out how we are truly no different then Loghain (something we can comment on). Perhaps even having him side with Loghain and exposing our own duplicitous nature to the Landsmeet. It'd be a claim without proof coming from an Elf, but Zev could go to Loghain with the information and Loghain would present it.
So I suppose a better phrasing would be that the game doesn't sufficiently and adequately challenge the players on their decisions, and even if it did I doubt it'd do much for a lot of people who are convinced they will always hold the moral high ground because they're the protagonist. Unless they're savvy enough to get that the Wardens are shady from the game (which they indeed are). Problem is that the narrative holds us up as paragons of virtue and honor and heroically valiant warriors -- things that the naive like Alistair believe and are untrue.
So I suppose a better phrasing would be that the game doesn't sufficiently and adequately challenge the players on their decisions, and even if it did I doubt it'd do much for a lot of people who are convinced they will always hold the moral high ground because they're the protagonist. Unless they're savvy enough to get that the Wardens are shady from the game (which they indeed are). Problem is that the narrative holds us up as paragons of virtue and honor and heroically valiant warriors -- things that the naive like Alistair believe and are untrue.
I guess this is where having DLC like Soldier's Peak, and playing as an anti-blood-magic mage to whom Duncan mentioned blood magic on my first playthrough, shaped my perception of the game and the Grey Warden order. By the end of the game, my Warden ended up staying a Warden mostly to ensure that the Fereldan chapter didn't end up like the mess he had seen at Soldier's Peak, and I think that point of view has stuck with me as a player ever since.
I should note here that I have yet to play a Warden who can make many of the truly objectionable decisions in the game (selling the elves, massacring either the Dalish or the werewolves, wiping out the Circle, etc.) but I agree that making those choices should have serious repercussions from your companions. Selling the elves or killing the Dalish alone should cost you Zevran's loyalty. Same with Morrigan if you choose to side with the Templars. And I'd expect a bigger repercussion from Oghren over Branka's death, or a royally pissed-off Shale if you save the Anvil for those with Stone Prisoner.
Same with Morrigan if you choose to side with the Templars.
Retour en haut