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[Voxr]

The fallen hero motif still doesn't justify what Loghain did or that he should become a Warden IMO. Specifically because of the events in DA:O. What happened in the past is in the past. Sure the people view him as a hero but that doesn't excuse the now. I understand the idea of redemption through GW but that still doesn't sit well for me. I usually RP Elves so the slavery is already a sore enough spot for my Wardens. Ostagar is another. He left you, the Wardens, and Cailan for dead. Thousands are dead already in that single act and for what? So Loghain and the rest of the army can just die another day? He put thousands of lives in jeopardy. He completely leaves southern Ferelden helpless because of his bout with the bannorn. Lothering is a slaughter because none of his troops are there to at least hold off the DS until a majority of the populous could escape (possibly) 

 

Loghain may have been remorseful but he still fk's up at every turn. He is driven by paranoia and fear and can't get a good enough grip to fully act on anything. He questions himself, he underestimates the enemy [Darkspawn] and in tries to cover up one of his mistakes by hunting down the rest of the Wardens. The ONLY people that can truly end a Blight. Not to mention he allows himself to be swayed and manipulated by Howe.

 

True the Warden's ranks are mixed with the noble and the unsavory. But when the time comes even being sorry ( which by the time of Landsmeet I don't think Loghain really is because he has rationalized his deeds too much at that point.) isn't enough to keep you around. And again I RP my Wardens so they also take what Loghain did personally. Even if a few of them could see where he was coming from. Too many had died by Loghain's actions, and his redemption is death. That in and of it's self isn't noble either I admit, but by that point for me it isn't about being noble anymore. Blood for blood.

[Natureguy85]

I can't say I really expect him to, and it not something I'd expect him to do. He's facing certain death, the loss of both his teyrnir and his reputation, and similar for his daughter's unknown future. He's not going to get a trial where he's going to be allowed to say his side of the story, and if he did it's very unlikely anyone when listen. Under those circumstances, I can understand him not showing remorse. It's not like Alistair ever shows remorse for Loghain's death either.

 

He got that during the Landsmeet. Why should Alistair feel remorse for Loghain's death? You or he did it because it was seen as justice for Loghain's actions. There's also something to be said for removing someone who might undermine you. This is one of the reasons Eamon tells Anora she must publicly renounce any claim to the throne and Alistair locks her in the tower if he becomes King or Anora has Alistair killed if she becomes Queen.

 

I RP my Warden's knowledge on history and how she'd view it. We don't see it, but we are supposed to have the knowledge of his deeds. You can even point out to Alistair that Loghain is seen as a hero to many still, so in the Warden's shoes, I myself would wonder what made such a great man I read about suddenly go all villain-like? And if my Warden is the type that can tell if a person is good or not when she meets them, she would get a grey vibe from him that would puzzle her, so by the Landsmeet she would try and sort it out peacefully and not blindly take vengeance like Alistair wanted to do. And when he meets my Warden at Eamon's estate, his face shows regret. Not regret that he didn't kill her, but regret that it's come to this. And when even his daughter in my PT turned on him, he pretty much snapped and became a broken man hiding behind lie after lie.

 

You can also tell in the cutscenes with Loghain that his face says it all. He messed up badly, and the harder he tries to fix it, the worse it becomes for him. Poisoning the Arl, trying to kill the remaining GW, letting the elves be sent to Tevinter as slaves... add that he now lets Howe do as he pleases. He's waste deep in the mud, and he'll never come clean, but a part of him wants to, despite his slightly maddened state by then. That's what I consider a perfect candidate for a GW.

 

He was meant to join earlier, but they changed it I heard. That's why things feel rather off when the Landsmeet happens.

 

In the end, it's all how you RP. Unless a dwarf or elf heard of his feats, then can choose to judge him in a less positive light and kill him for his current deeds and not the past good ones they know nothing about.

 

Also I have never read the books, so I have no idea what Loghain did that's good. I just go by the knowledge my Warden gains and my own view. I knew he would betray us, since I played DA2 first and Varric says so in the prologue, but when I saw the actual scene, I had questions.

 

There's no gray with Loghain. He's a villain, though perhaps a well meaning one. That remorse you see is only after he's been beaten down. Perhaps losing to one better than himself, the Warden, has made him more introspective and reflective, but there is none of that going on at the time you must decide to kill him or not. In this thread, I've always argued from the perspective of what the Warden knew at the time.

[KaiserShep]

It would've been interesting to see how Howe would react if you were able to take him in alive, and offer him the choice of being conscripted or face execution. I suspect that the monumental d*ckhole would probably spit on the proposition and ask for the headman's axe, but still, I wonder. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It would've been interesting to see how Howe would react if you were able to take him in alive, and offer him the choice of being conscripted or face execution. I suspect that the monumental d*ckhole would probably spit on the proposition and ask for the headman's axe, but still, I wonder. 

If he had any brains, he'd either go belly-up for the moment and wait for an opportunity to betray you without immediately dying, or just surrender and mean it.

 

So yeah, he probably would have asked for the headsman's axe.

[Mike3207]

He got that during the Landsmeet. Why should Alistair feel remorse for Loghain's death? You or he did it because it was seen as justice for Loghain's actions. There's also something to be said for removing someone who might undermine you. This is one of the reasons Eamon tells Anora she must publicly renounce any claim to the throne and Alistair locks her in the tower if he becomes King or Anora has Alistair killed if she becomes Queen.

I don't think a political forum can double as a courtroom proceeding, but this is Ferelden. It's pretty telling on Ferelden jurisprudence that the Warden can pull Nathaniel out of jail with just a word, and the local ruler can decide guilt or innocence for criminals-also their ultimate fate. That tells me the powerful make law and order decisions in Ferelden, and justice really doesn't enter much into it.

 

As for removing someone who can undermine you-Anora can do that as well. Exile Alistair or even kill him-you have to end the civil war one way or another. I favor marrying them off currently, but i also see the logic in ending the civil war by killing or exiling the potential loser in it.

[Xetykins]

Mmm..which was why there should have been an option for Alistair to kill Anora too. Lock her? Pish posh, the boy's too soft and smart. But there should have been an Anora execution if Alistair survives during the coronation.

[KaiserShep]

I would have chosen to execute Anora just once just to see the look on Loghain's face before I lopped his head off too, and have the head cast in bronze with a plaque below it that says "Anora noooo!" 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mmm..which was why there should have been an option for Alistair to kill Anora too. Lock her? Pish posh, the boy's too soft and smart. But there should have been an Anora execution if Alistair survives during the coronation.

If he's hardened, his dialogue while sparing Anora implies that she only gets to live until it becomes clear he's not going to die in battle fighting the Blight. The fact that the game leaves open this possibility is almost certainly why you don't have the option to just kill her on the spot. Don't know if that helps.

[Xetykins]

I did even say on the spot. I said if Alistair survive and during the coronation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I did even say on the spot. I said if Alistair survive and during the coronation.

Well, again: if he's hardened, it is implied to happen.

[Xetykins]

How is it implied tho? Just because he said to stick her in the tower for now? For all we know she could have been on nice comfy house arrest there for like forever :-)

[Voxr]

How is it implied tho? Just because he said to stick her in the tower for now? For all we know she could have been on nice comfy house arrest there for like forever :-)

 

Around the 5:20 mark. I don't know if that makes it implied that Anora is to be executed after the Battle of Denerim. But he says "Put her in the tower. If I fall in battle Anora will resume the throne. If not, then we'll see..." Paraphrasing of course, but implications could be made of an imminent execution.

 

Honestly Anora isn't much better than Howe IMO. Sure she isn't a monster like him, but she's probably just as power hungry. Then again I guess you kind of become that way when it's you who is actually ruling and your husband is off playing war-hero.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

How is it implied tho? Just because he said to stick her in the tower for now? For all we know she could have been on nice comfy house arrest there for like forever :-)

The dialogue for if he's not hardened comes across as him not wanting Anora to go free due to her refusing to swear fealty, but not wanting to kill her either: that one is consistent with Anora being in nice comfy confinement forever, although it's more likely Eamon will either persuade Alistair to execute her or just have her assassinated.

 

The dialogue if Alistair is hardened is different; it's much less hesitant, much more aggressive, and (if I remember correctly) heavily hints that the mercy he's showing her is a temporary arrangement and that Anora will be executed off-screen. I don't really remember specifics though; bear in mind that I haven't touched Origins since I bought Awakening (which was more than a year ago) and prefer to marry the two.

 

 

Around the 5:20 mark. I don't know if that makes it implied that Anora is to be executed after the Battle of Denerim. But he says "Put her in the tower. If I fall in battle Anora will resume the throne. If not, then we'll see..." Paraphrasing of course, but implications could be made of an imminent execution.

 

Thank you for posting.

 

As for the implications: shortly after the bit you quoted, Alistair says "If I fall the throne falls to you. I'm not going to kill you while there's a chance that could happen." That seems to me to mean that she dies after that danger has passed. (Although the one playthrough in which I'm sure I got that dialogue was the one where I let Alistair US, so she lived. And was a remarkably good sport about all the things I did to hurt her.)

[Natureguy85]

And if he was not redeemable and remained the villain some people see, he never would have been an option to be a GW, nor would his story to progress in a positive way in later games.

 

This is an argument after the fact and only valid if you are arguing with hindsight. Again, I look at the moment we make the choice.

 

 

I don't think a political forum can double as a courtroom proceeding, but this is Ferelden. It's pretty telling on Ferelden jurisprudence that the Warden can pull Nathaniel out of jail with just a word, and the local ruler can decide guilt or innocence for criminals-also their ultimate fate. That tells me the powerful make law and order decisions in Ferelden, and justice really doesn't enter much into it.

 

As for removing someone who can undermine you-Anora can do that as well. Exile Alistair or even kill him-you have to end the civil war one way or another. I favor marrying them off currently, but i also see the logic in ending the civil war by killing or exiling the potential loser in it.

 

Well, it did in the Landsmeet. And yes, Ferelden has a largely feudal structure though the Bannorn having an almost Federal relationship with the Crown is interesting.

[Mike3207]

Well in Origins your options are sort of limited because you only have enough Archdemon blood for one Joining. I always felt it was a little hinky that we weren't able to make any Wardens in Origins, yet had no problems in Awakening with everyone and their mother going through the Joining.

[Mike3207]

I know! Lol I also wanted to conscript Jowan, since I heard it was an option at one time, but they cut it. It seems they had the same thought, but not enough time I guess. Would have been interesting having an actual blood mage in your party that wasn't your Warden, and I don't count Morrigan.

Not something i would have ever gone for. I'm not a fan of blood magic. None of my companions or Warden will ever be blood mages. 

[Voxr]

Blood mages are cool in concept but lame in execution. That said Howe was totes a Blood Mage.

[Aren]

While you can certainly argue that the merits of keeping Loghain outweight the need to punish him, Alistair does not have a "non-sensical vendetta against the man who freed Ferelden after 80 years of occupation." He has a sensical vendetta against the man who betrayed his King, sold out the army at Ostagar, and blamed the Wardens. Loghains previous actions, however heroic and noble, do not excuse or wipe away his recent ones.  You can even have a discussion with Ser Cauthrien about how Loghain is no longer the man she once followed. Loghain's past is what establishes him as a tragic, fallen hero rather than just some *******, but he's still a tragic, fallen hero. He's actually the textbook definition. His strong patriotism, which served him so well during the war, was taken too far and led him to do bad things. This was ultimately his downfall.

 

I also hate the excuse and attempt to shift blame on Duncan for not explaining to people why the Gray Wardens are necessary. There is something to be said for it, but even if you don't understand why, it's common knowledge that the Wardens are necessary.  Even if it's just that they are the best at killing Darkspawn, they are what you need. But there were legitimate reasons for the secrecy. How would people react to the idea that the Warden's drink Darkspawn blood and are tainted?

 

Anyway, this knowledge wouldn't have changed what Loghain did because there had not yet been sign of the Archdemon.

Yes Alistair vendetta made non sense,Loghain never betrayed the King,he have even suggest to CAilan to stay away from the battlefield in front of Duncan,The Warden and Alistair yes agree forget about the rest of the comment only focus on Loghain.

[Illegitimus]

 

Yes Alistair vendetta made non sense,Loghain never betrayed the King,he have even suggest to CAilan to stay away from the battlefield in front of Duncan,The Warden and Alistair,so yes people will continue to argue that he betrayed the King only to stand on the moral high ground (replay Ostagar) when actually this is completely false and not supported by any evidence

 

...yeah.  

 

The evidence:

 

1.  Loghain and Cailan were quarreling before the battle about Cailan's willingness to invite Grey Warden/Orlesian assistance in and about Anora (apparently about Anora's infertility which was leading Cailan to consider divorce in the interest of fathering an heir and possibly making an Orlesian alliance.  Goes to motive your honor.  

 

2.  Prior to the battle at Ostagar, Loghain conspires to have the two most powerful lords in Ferelden (and incidentally the two strongest known contenders to take the throne after Cailan) except for himself killed.  What's his motive?  How would this have played out once Cailan heard about the Cousland massacre if he was still alive.  We don't know precisely when he conspired with Uldred to take over the Circle and cut the Templars out but he certainly would have had more time to do it before the battle, and that would explain how he came to rescue Jowan from the Templars.  These moves make more sense as preparation for a coup than anything else.  

 

3.  During the battle the fact of the matter is, Loghain did NOT carry out his half of the plan.  He saw the signal, and he ordered his forces to march away.  After that, Cailan dies and the main force is broken.  Arguments that he marched away because the signal was late and therefore he knew the battle was lost are not convincing.  He couldn't see the battle from where he was.  That was why the signal was called for in the first place.  He had no way of knowing exactly when the Darkspawn main attack would hit or how the battle was going.  If he was right, it was by accident.  Afterward when Anora asks him whether he killed Cailan his denial is at best half-hearted.  

 

I'd say the evidence supports him seizing on the late signal as an opportunity.  If the signal had come sooner he would have gone ahead with the tactical plan.  But then he would have killed Cailan anyway and felt justified.  It was something that had to be done to save Ferelden from once again coming under Orlesian rule.