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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

...yeah.  

 

The evidence:

 

1.  Loghain and Cailan were quarreling before the battle about Cailan's willingness to invite Grey Warden/Orlesian assistance in and about Anora (apparently about Anora's infertility which was leading Cailan to consider divorce in the interest of fathering an heir and possibly making an Orlesian alliance.  Goes to motive your honor.  

 

2.  Prior to the battle at Ostagar, Loghain conspires to have the two most powerful lords in Ferelden (and incidentally the two strongest known contenders to take the throne after Cailan) except for himself killed.  What's his motive?  How would this have played out once Cailan heard about the Cousland massacre if he was still alive.  We don't know precisely when he conspired with Uldred to take over the Circle and cut the Templars out but he certainly would have had more time to do it before the battle, and that would explain how he came to rescue Jowan from the Templars.  These moves make more sense as preparation for a coup than anything else.  

 

3.  During the battle the fact of the matter is, Loghain did NOT carry out his half of the plan.  He saw the signal, and he ordered his forces to march away.  After that, Cailan dies and the main force is broken.  Arguments that he marched away because the signal was late and therefore he knew the battle was lost are not convincing.  He couldn't see the battle from where he was.  That was why the signal was called for in the first place.  He had no way of knowing exactly when the Darkspawn main attack would hit or how the battle was going.  If he was right, it was by accident.  Afterward when Anora asks him whether he killed Cailan his denial is at best half-hearted.  

 

I'd say the evidence supports him seizing on the late signal as an opportunity.  If the signal had come sooner he would have gone ahead with the tactical plan.  But then he would have killed Cailan anyway and felt justified.  It was something that had to be done to save Ferelden from once again coming under Orlesian rule.  

1: Loghain's dialogue when he discovers that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora in RtO indicates that it was a complete shock, though I'll concede the rest of this point.

 

2: No on all counts. You have at best circumstantial evidence that Loghain was involved with the plan to kill the Couslands and Gaider has indicated that he wasn't. There is also no evidence that Loghain was planning to take over the Circle; if I remember correctly all Niall testifies to was that Loghain would help them negotiate for more freedoms, and there is no evidence that Loghain supported Uldred's response to that falling through. During party banter, when Wynne is about to lay into Loghain and he thinks it's over Uldred's actions, he also sarcastically points out that what Uldred was doing was absolutely inconsistent with Loghain's aims with regards to the Circle. (Namely, that it continue to contribute mages to his army, which doesn't really become less of a good idea just because Loghain's not planning a coup.) Wynne doesn't even bother to argue that point, instead switching focuses to Ostagar (if she ever intended to try to pin Uldred's crimes on Loghain, that is.)

 

3: Is it explicitly stated that he couldn't see the battle? Because it seems to me the beacon could as well be meant to compensate for the fact that Loghain can't see the end of the darkspawn column: Loghain wants to charge in when the entire darkspawn force is committed, so that he's not opening his own flank to the darkspawn who haven't yet arrived. Furthermore, Duncan explicitly says that the Wardens have less than an hour to get to the top of the Tower, and Alistair seems convinced that you're lighting the signal late when you finally kill the ogre: if Duncan and Alistair can make an estimate like that, Loghain can too, even if I conceded that Loghain couldn't see the battlefield.

 

Also, I don't think you actually answered Aren's point on Loghain asked Cailan to do the one thing that would have comprehensively thwarted what you accuse him of planning. (Edit: Rereading it seems you responded to it, but your argument against that evidence seems to assume your conclusion.) It seems to me that the evidence best supports the opposite of your conclusion.

 

 

Loghain deserve death penalty,but the Old god need to be saved because is a special snowflake,even if he was the very thing responsible for this chaos?

The Archdemon has been driven insane by the darkspawn taint, thus making it an Archdemon in the first place. You can argue diminished capacity pretty easily here. Not to mention that causing Loghain to perma-die doesn't require either Alistair or the PC Warden to die, and that Alistair was (with valid in-character reason I'd argue) distracted by the "do I really want to stick it inside Morrigan" ethical dilemma.

[Natureguy85]

 

Yes Alistair vendetta made non sense,Loghain never betrayed the King,he have even suggest to CAilan to stay away from the battlefield in front of Duncan,The Warden and Alistair,so yes people will continue to argue that he betrayed the King only to stand on the moral high ground (replay Ostagar) when actually this is completely false and not supported by any evidence and listen to Solas in DAI the truth is different from a polluted percpection,is Cailan who has killed himself for glory.

And yes Duncan is to blame no excuse here,he was with Alistair for 6 fuc****  months, sorry but this irritates the hell out of me,for 6 month he has never told to Alistair anything,and by the way GW know 100% when there is an AD due to their dreams,he never mention the US to Alistair in 6 months alongside with the other 3 senior wardens !

And yes yes,The redemption ending is what i consider the greatest outcome.

Not to mention that i find AListair to be a great hypocrite,he tell that he love the Warden so much,that he respect their values,but is possible to persuade him to save the very thing that has killed Duncan in the first place,the AD.

Alistar as a character would have tried to kill the AD that is responsible for this mess without not even listen to the Warden,

Loghain deserve death penalty,but the Old god need to be saved because is a special snowflake,even if he was the very thing responsible for this chaos? Him and the Architect are the two who need to die without mercy not Loghain who deserve the possibility of redemption.

The last statement is completely and utterly false,GW such as the main character immediately perceive the AD in whatever place he is,even on the other side of Thedas (or the specific case) under the frostback mountains,  Duncan and the other GW have percived the AD for months this is way he was sent on Ferelden,however unlike RIordan  he do not have any excuse for being so secretive with another GW.

 

 

As to Loghain advising Cailan to stay away, I always thought that Loghain's decision to retreat was made right there, not planned ahead of time from the beginning. The weakness with this idea is all the other things he does like poisoning Eamon. Then again, I've never had a good sense of the timing of events in Origins.

 

I'm not sure what Duncan not telling Alistair about the Ultimate Sacrifice has to do with anything regarding Loghain.

 

What do you mean it's possible to persuade Alistair to save the Archdemon? Are you referring to the Dark Ritual? That's more about making sure a Warden doesn't have to die.

 

Again at the end, we're talking about Loghain, not Alistair.

 

 

 

I'd say the evidence supports him seizing on the late signal as an opportunity.  If the signal had come sooner he would have gone ahead with the tactical plan.  But then he would have killed Cailan anyway and felt justified.  It was something that had to be done to save Ferelden from once again coming under Orlesian rule.  

 

I like your whole post but I'm not sure that Loghain would have killed Cailan otherwise. I always though Loghain tried and tried to get Cailan to see things his way and everything he did was either a contingency plan or a last minute decision of desperation.

 

2: No on all counts. You have at best circumstantial evidence that Loghain was involved with the plan to kill the Couslands and Gaider has indicated that he wasn't. There is also no evidence that Loghain was planning to take over the Circle; if I remember correctly all Niall testifies to was that Loghain would help them negotiate for more freedoms, and there is no evidence that Loghain supported Uldred's response to that falling through. During party banter, when Wynne is about to lay into Loghain and he thinks it's over Uldred's actions, he also sarcastically points out that what Uldred was doing was absolutely inconsistent with Loghain's aims with regards to the Circle. (Namely, that it continue to contribute mages to his army, which doesn't really become less of a good idea just because Loghain's not planning a coup.) Wynne doesn't even bother to argue that point, instead switching focuses to Ostagar (if she ever intended to try to pin Uldred's crimes on Loghain, that is.)

 

3: Is it explicitly stated that he couldn't see the battle? Because it seems to me the beacon could as well be meant to compensate for the fact that Loghain can't see the end of the darkspawn column: Loghain wants to charge in when the entire darkspawn force is committed, so that he's not opening his own flank to the darkspawn who haven't yet arrived. Furthermore, Duncan explicitly says that the Wardens have less than an hour to get to the top of the Tower, and Alistair seems convinced that you're lighting the signal late when you finally kill the ogre: if Duncan and Alistair can make an estimate like that, Loghain can too, even if I conceded that Loghain couldn't see the battlefield.

 

Also, I don't think you actually answered Aren's point on Loghain asked Cailan to do the one thing that would have comprehensively thwarted what you accuse him of planning. It seems to me that the evidence best supports the opposite of your conclusion.

 

2) I've been mixed on the idea that Loghain didn't know about the attack on Highever. On the one hand, it seems like something he'd be ok with, but I also like the idea that he underestimated what a horrible person Howe is and couldn't control him. I certainly agree that while he may have been in favor of strife in the Circle to keep the Templars from bothering him or to get on the mages good side, he had no reason to be in favor of Uldred creating abominations.

 

3) I don't think it's explicitly stated but remember that they were also in a place where they had to be sure that the enemy couldn't see them either. He certainly knows that the signal is late, and I do find it hard to believe that he has no idea what's going on in the battle. I assume he has scouts that would watch and report back, especially once the signal was late.

[Aren]

 

Not to mention that causing Loghain to perma-die doesn't require either Alistair or the PC Warden to die, 

It does require to concede a gift to Flemeth (or worse Solas) ,i will gladly take  one Loghain dead(he is already doomed) than see one of them overpowered.

You would argue this is heavy "meta knowledge"but i'm more inclined to believe that this was predictable , that one day Flemeth would have come to take the price,and no according to the final scene,the Witch has never released the soul beyond the eluvian.

I do not wish to lose Loghain's soul when it can be used more efficiently........and no it's not so evil.......well is the rightful punishment for.....maybe not, soul destruction is too much for everyone,still he volunteer.

[sylvanaerie]

Yes Alistair vendetta made non sense,Loghain never betrayed the King,he have even suggest to CAilan to stay away from the battlefield in front of Duncan,The Warden and Alistair yes agree forget about the rest of the comment only focus on Loghain.

 

Actually Alistair wasn't present for that conversation, only the Warden PC, Cailan, Loghain, Uldred, an unnamed Priest and Duncan.  Alistair went back to the GW camp after the Joining Ceremony to wait for further orders.  He even has a comment about "not keeping Cailan waiting" if you follow and click him.

 

As for the 'Redemption/Warden Commander' endings, I hate them.  IMO Bioware really dropped the ball with the epilogues to them.  PC gets a nice funeral with a eulogy from Anora/Alistair, but the other two characters die and all they get is a party (that isn't even for them!) and one throwaway line.  I realize a lot of people like Redemption, but the first time I didn't do the DR and ordered Alistair (and later Loghain) to do it, I was so pissed when I got the party after the battle, I wanted to throw my monitor out the window.

 

Worse, they don't just die, their souls are obliterated.  I only wanted Loghain dead in the game, not utterly destroyed!  At least if he dies in the Landsmeet, he's just dead, and presumably has to face his Maker for what he's done in his life.  Of course, if you don't believe in an afterlife in the first place, I guess it wouldn't matter anyway.

 

As for Ostagar, that was a veil of tears all around with a three way helping of error in judgement: Loghain for underestimating the enemy, Cailan for being a stupid gloryhound and Duncan for hording grey warden secrets.  And hell, maybe even saying a little something about how an Archdemon is actually killed to his grey wardens--from Alistair's comments in Ostagar, he's as ignorant as any layman, no excuse on Duncan's part for that error--would have been helpful info to know. He could have said some general stuff to Loghain and Cailan to inform them that Cailan's plan to kill the beast himself with Maric's sword was not feasible since it 'takes a grey warden to kill the beast permanently'.  At the very least he could have said just how he knew it was an actual Blight and not just a large excursion of darkspawn (IE he could sense the Archdemon).  Whether either of these facts could've helped depends on how much Loghain would trust his word, though.  

 

I have to believe that "How an Archdemon dies" thing was a bombshell Bioware wanted to save for the very end, but think of the game you could have had that first time going through, finding out you will die when you kill it early on and then spending the rest of the game on your missions to save Ferelden, knowing you or Alistair are doomed.  How different that Landsmeet would have been when Riordan suggests recruiting Loghain--you have your out--though that may not help with Alistair's b*tch fit.  Then that final night, Morrigan tells you what she knows and you learn no one has to die.  Frankly, I feel a little cheated out of the game that could have been my first time.

 

The biggest problem is most of Ferelden doesn't take this blight seriously.  They just don't believe it is one, just a large excursion to the surface.

[Illegitimus]

1: Loghain's dialogue when he discovers that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora in RtO indicates that it was a complete shock, though I'll concede the rest of this point.

 

2: No on all counts. You have at best circumstantial evidence that Loghain was involved with the plan to kill the Couslands and Gaider has indicated that he wasn't. There is also no evidence that Loghain was planning to take over the Circle; if I remember correctly all Niall testifies to was that Loghain would help them negotiate for more freedoms, and there is no evidence that Loghain supported Uldred's response to that falling through. During party banter, when Wynne is about to lay into Loghain and he thinks it's over Uldred's actions, he also sarcastically points out that what Uldred was doing was absolutely inconsistent with Loghain's aims with regards to the Circle. (Namely, that it continue to contribute mages to his army, which doesn't really become less of a good idea just because Loghain's not planning a coup.) Wynne doesn't even bother to argue that point, instead switching focuses to Ostagar (if she ever intended to try to pin Uldred's crimes on Loghain, that is.)

 

3: Is it explicitly stated that he couldn't see the battle? Because it seems to me the beacon could as well be meant to compensate for the fact that Loghain can't see the end of the darkspawn column: Loghain wants to charge in when the entire darkspawn force is committed, so that he's not opening his own flank to the darkspawn who haven't yet arrived. Furthermore, Duncan explicitly says that the Wardens have less than an hour to get to the top of the Tower, and Alistair seems convinced that you're lighting the signal late when you finally kill the ogre: if Duncan and Alistair can make an estimate like that, Loghain can too, even if I conceded that Loghain couldn't see the battlefield.

 

Also, I don't think you actually answered Aren's point on Loghain asked Cailan to do the one thing that would have comprehensively thwarted what you accuse him of planning. (Edit: Rereading it seems you responded to it, but your argument against that evidence seems to assume your conclusion.) It seems to me that the evidence best supports the opposite of your conclusion.

 

 

I get the impression that Gaider is doing a little after the fact white-washing of Loghain because he regrets not making things more ambiguous.  Just going by the in game text I'm left with the insuperable problem of why, if Loghain was not conspiring with Cousland's murderer, does he then proceed to shower said murderer with status and gold?  We know Loghain conspired to murder Eamon and we are expected to believe that it's just a coincidence that Howe happened to murder the other of the two highest ranking noblemen in the kingdom at the same time, right before Loghain tried to take the throne, and Loghain just failed to notice Howe's treason when deciding to hand out goodies?  How did Howe expect to get away with a quite unsubtle treasonous mass murder without someone of very high rank to cover for him?   I would rather have Loghain be a passably smart villain (apart from his minor insanity that causes him to refuse to see any threat as more significant than Orlais) than have Howe and Loghain both be such lucky idiots.   And since the Warden doesn't have access to Gaider's tweets, his decision about Loghain's guilt has to be based on what he sees, and what he sees looks exactly like a premeditated conspiracy to take the kingdom.  It's circumstantial evidence but people can and do hang on circumstantial evidence.  

 

As for the party banter, isn't it the case that Loghain is merely acquitting himself of involvement with Uldred's decision to go wild with blood magic and turn into an Abomination?  What Uldred was trying to do before Wynne denounced him was perfectly consistent with Loghain's desire to have to more mages with his forces.  Nearly destroying the tower wasn't Uldred's plan until he lost control and hence could not have been his conspiracy.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I get the impression that Gaider is doing a little after the fact white-washing of Loghain because he regrets not making things more ambiguous.  Just going by the in game text I'm left with the insuperable problem of why, if Loghain was not conspiring with Cousland's murderer, does he then proceed to shower said murderer with status and gold?  We know Loghain conspired to murder Eamon and we are expected to believe that it's just a coincidence that Howe happened to murder the other of the two highest ranking noblemen in the kingdom at the same time, right before Loghain tried to take the throne, and Loghain just failed to notice Howe's treason when deciding to hand out goodies?  How did Howe expect to get away with a quite unsubtle treasonous mass murder without someone of very high rank to cover for him?   I would rather have Loghain be a passably smart villain (apart from his minor insanity that causes him to refuse to see any threat as more significant than Orlais) than have Howe and Loghain both be such lucky idiots.   And since the Warden doesn't have access to Gaider's tweets, his decision about Loghain's guilt has to be based on what he sees, and what he sees looks exactly like a premeditated conspiracy to take the kingdom.  It's circumstantial evidence but people can and do hang on circumstantial evidence.  

 

As for the party banter, isn't it the case that Loghain is merely acquitting himself of involvement with Uldred's decision to go wild with blood magic and turn into an Abomination?  What Uldred was trying to do before Wynne denounced him was perfectly consistent with Loghain's desire to have to more mages with his forces.  Nearly destroying the tower wasn't Uldred's plan until he lost control and hence could not have been his conspiracy.  

The reason that a Loghain who knows and disapproves of Howe's actions would keep Howe alive and try to keep him happy with their alliance is because he can't afford not to. He's already got the Bannorn raising arms, the darkspawn in the south and (as far as he knows) Orlesians ready to open another front. What is Loghain supposed to do about Howe? Open a front to the northeast to go along with the one in the center, the one in the south, and the one he thinks is going to open soon in the west? As for Gaider's tweets, you're right that the Warden doesn't know of them, but I thought we were arguing metagame here? As for hanging people on circumstantial evidence, it happens, but it shouldn't. Especially since it's not like there isn't stuff worth hanging Loghain over without the question of whether he was a before or after the fact accessory to the Couslands murder; I'm not telling you not to play a Cousland for whom that's the main reason Loghain has to die, but I am saying that that Cousland is a flawed character. (Which is not in and of itself a bad thing; I've played outright evil characters. But I try to be honest with myself about it.)

 

And you're right about Loghain trying to acquit himself of Uldred's decision to go wild with blood magic: my point was that you seemed to be attempting to accuse him of being complicit in that.

 

Or if not: the stuff Loghain's copping to (namely trying to help the mages by throwing his weight behind them whenever they negotiate with the Chantry) wasn't wrong. Noblemen are within their rights to take sides when a party useful to them is negotiating with another party. And since Loghain is a general, it makes sense for him to ask that the mages continue to be useful to him in exchange for whatever help he can provide here. It's not really good evidence of treachery because it makes sense for Loghain to do whether or not he's planning to take over the country, Not to mention that a basic "Get the mages on board, then we'll talk" deal could easily have been hammered out in five minutes while leaving Ostagar in a hurry, which means that it didn't necessarily have to happen before Ostagar (although if Loghain thinks the Circle is providing fewer mages than it could when he sees what Gregoir has agreed to send, there's non-treasonous motive to do so before Ostagar too.)

[Illegitimus]

The reason that a Loghain who knows and disapproves of Howe's actions would keep Howe alive and try to keep him happy with their alliance is because he can't afford not to. He's already got the Bannorn raising arms, the darkspawn in the south and (as far as he knows) Orlesians ready to open another front. What is Loghain supposed to do about Howe? Open a front to the northeast to go along with the one in the center, the one in the south, and the one he thinks is going to open soon in the west? As for Gaider's tweets, you're right that the Warden doesn't know of them, but I thought we were arguing metagame here? As for hanging people on circumstantial evidence, it happens, but it shouldn't. Especially since it's not like there isn't stuff worth hanging Loghain over without the question of whether he was a before or after the fact accessory to the Couslands murder; I'm not telling you not to play a Cousland for whom that's the main reason Loghain has to die, but I am saying that that Cousland is a flawed character. (Which is not in and of itself a bad thing; I've played outright evil characters. But I try to be honest with myself about it.)

 

 

<snort>  Absurd.  Howe just murdered his own liege lord and the only friend he had among the peerage.  Loghain rewards him by making him the most powerful lord in the country second only to Loghain as regent and lets him take control of the capital.  If Howe's slaughter of the Couslands was on his own initiative, if he was that reckless and out of control, that's as good as Loghain cutting his own throat when he could instead have handed Denerim, Highever, and Amaranthine over to three of the disgruntled lords of the bannorn before they were in outright rebellion.  Loghain giving all of that to Howe, plus leaving him in control of the noble hostages and then his own daughter and source of Loghain's closest claim to a legitimate regency, and keeping Howe as his closest advisor and hatchet-man (hiring assassins and the like) doesn't say "reluctant tolerance of an unreliable man to keep him from turning on me".  It's "I really, deeply trust this man, like a hand trusts a glove."  And despite Howe's corruption, after the massacre he keeps his unauthorized misdeeds down to a bit of embezzlement and some recreational torture.  

 

Nor does it make sense for Howe to count on being given this leeway if he has been given no assurances in advance.  Had the battle gone swimmingly, the blight defeated and Cailan and Fergus returned in triumph to find out that Howe was trying to take over Highever over the dead body of Fergus's son...well there would have been harsh admonitions.  

 

Also you're wrong about circumstantial evidence.  Without it, pretty much the only crimes that could be dealt with would be those with confessions, living eyewitnesses or videorecordings.  

[Natureguy85]

I get the impression that Gaider is doing a little after the fact white-washing of Loghain because he regrets not making things more ambiguous.  Just going by the in game text I'm left with the insuperable problem of why, if Loghain was not conspiring with Cousland's murderer, does he then proceed to shower said murderer with status and gold?  We know Loghain conspired to murder Eamon and we are expected to believe that it's just a coincidence that Howe happened to murder the other of the two highest ranking noblemen in the kingdom at the same time, right before Loghain tried to take the throne, and Loghain just failed to notice Howe's treason when deciding to hand out goodies?  How did Howe expect to get away with a quite unsubtle treasonous mass murder without someone of very high rank to cover for him?   I would rather have Loghain be a passably smart villain (apart from his minor insanity that causes him to refuse to see any threat as more significant than Orlais) than have Howe and Loghain both be such lucky idiots.   And since the Warden doesn't have access to Gaider's tweets, his decision about Loghain's guilt has to be based on what he sees, and what he sees looks exactly like a premeditated conspiracy to take the kingdom.  It's circumstantial evidence but people can and do hang on circumstantial evidence.  

 

As for the party banter, isn't it the case that Loghain is merely acquitting himself of involvement with Uldred's decision to go wild with blood magic and turn into an Abomination?  What Uldred was trying to do before Wynne denounced him was perfectly consistent with Loghain's desire to have to more mages with his forces.  Nearly destroying the tower wasn't Uldred's plan until he lost control and hence could not have been his conspiracy.  

 

See, had they not made Loghain get so involved in other dark and dirty matters, I could have bought the idea that he was well meaning but was working with a more evil jackass that kept going too far. Then Loghain has to cover for Howe simply because it's too late to turn back now. But Loghain never really shows any problem with Howe other than he isn't too fond of hiring Zevran and the Crows.

 

 

 

 

Nor does it make sense for Howe to count on being given this leeway if he has been given no assurances in advance.  Had the battle gone swimmingly, the blight defeated and Cailan and Fergus returned in triumph to find out that Howe was trying to take over Highever over the dead body of Fergus's son...well there would have been harsh admonitions.  

 

Most of your post was thoughts similar to those above but I wanted to grab this part because it's a really good point. When you tell Cailan about it, he will get angry and ask how Howe thinks he could get away with it. I see nothing to make me think his promise to make Howe pay is anything but sincere.

[Aren]

 

 

Worse, they don't just die, their souls are obliterated.  I only wanted Loghain dead in the game, not utterly destroyed!  At least if he dies in the Landsmeet, he's just dead, and presumably has to face his Maker for what he's done in his life.  Of course, if you don't believe in an afterlife in the first place, I guess it wouldn't matter anyway.

 

 

 

The GW are wrong in many things regarding the darkspawn,they do not know what happen to a GW who absorb an AD soul,is more a matter of Will than a matter of souls.

In fact Riodan is entirely wrong  about the Darkspawn when he say that they are empty souls vessels

(false Disciples,The Architect do not create souls, he awake them),their will is weak and already subjugated to the AD (not so different than Corypheus here),I strongly believe that the AD will, replace the darkspawn and the soul is banished from the body.

With the GW i'm more inclined to believe that since their will (AD vs GW) are not "synchronized " both souls are banished from the physycal body.

The key word is will, that s why Morrigan child can absorb the essence,the child already have a soul,his soul is not oblitarated simply because in that stage his will

do not interfere with the AD during the "merging",then after some months the taint is removed during the embrional development.

There is also a codex in DAI who mention the forgotten voices into the beyond (fade) that are (questionable) the killed Old gods of the past.

But even if the GW are completly right about the soul obliteration (which i do not believe,since the GW are wrong 90% of the cases),this honor it belongs to Loghain

his fault to not have allowed to other 200 GW to enter in Ferelden,is honor to be the sacrifice,i can just headcanon his  Funeral or AListair funeral,in my imagination is even better than the one at the ed of the game,yes i do believe that the funeral scene is not even so well done.

Last thing,i'm vastly disappointed by the knowledge that the GW posses regarding the darkspawn after 1200 years and 5th blights.

They do not even know on how to deal with their calling,which is something that Avernus did somehow,they do not even now how to eliminate an AD without a sacrifice, which is something that  can be done with a disciple who can even reach the Old god into the deep roads without no army ,and look on how crazy was the GW idea in DAI,use demons to reach the Old gods,when clearly this is a mission for Disciples who are reasonably save among the other darkspawn.

(The architect posses  knowledge but he has forgotten so much,so the truth is that he has developed his new Joining ritual from scratch  in a few years,shame on the GW!  Being so secretive, doesn't help progress.

 

 

as an inside if i remember correctly,Loghain was one of the most unlikable character for you?

So why not use the possibility of soul's obliteration,that is an hell of a vengeance,yes evil if done with this purpose in mind... but still....the option is there.

But i'm just sad that Howe  and Vaughan are not sacrifice options

[sylvanaerie]

 

The GW are wrong in many things regarding the darkspawn,they do not know what happen to a GW who absorb an AD soul,is more a matter of Will than a matter of souls.

In fact Riodan is entirely wrong  about the Darkspawn when he say that they are empty souls vessels

(false Disciples,The Architect do not create souls, he awake them),their will is weak and already subjugated to the AD (not so different than Corypheus here),I strongly believe that the AD will, replace the darkspawn and the soul is banished from the body.

With the GW i'm more inclined to believe that since their will (AD vs GW) are not "synchronized " both souls are banished from the physycal body.

The key word is will, that s why Morrigan child can absorb the essence,the child already have a soul,his soul is not oblitarated simply because in that stage his will

do not interfere with the AD during the "merging",then after some months the taint is removed during the embrional development.

There is also a codex in DAI who mention the forgotten voices into the beyond (fade) that are (questionable) the killed Old gods of the past.

But even if the GW are completly right about the soul obliteration (which i do not believe,since the GW are wrong 90% of the cases),this honor it belongs to Loghain

his fault to not have allowed to other 200 GW to enter in Ferelden,is honor to be the sacrifice,i can just headcanon his  Funeral or AListair funeral,in my imagination is even better than the one at the ed of the game,yes i do believe that the funeral scene is not even so well done.

Last thing,i'm vastly disappointed by the knowledge that the GW posses regarding the darkspawn after 1200 years and 5th blights.

They do not even know on how to deal with their calling,which is something that Avernus did somehow,they do not even now how to eliminate an AD without a sacrifice, which is something that  can be done with a disciple who can even reach the Old god into the deep roads without no army ,and look on how crazy was the GW idea in DAI,use demons to reach the Old gods,when clearly this is a mission for Disciples who are reasonably save among the other darkspawn.

(The architect posses  knowledge but he has forgotten so much,so the truth is that he has developed his new Joining ritual from scratch  in a few years,shame on the GW!  Being so secretive, doesn't help progress.

 

 

as an inside if i remember correctly,Loghain was one of the most unlikable character for you?

So why not use the possibility of soul's obliteration,that is an hell of a vengeance,yes evil if done with this purpose in mind... but still....the option is there.

But i'm just sad that Howe  and Vaughan are not sacrifice options

 

 

The truth is we don't know what happens to the soul--if it exists--after something that traumatic tears it up.  Riordan could be wrong, he could be right.  A person can be 90% wrong but that still means 10% of the time, he's gonna be right.  I don't like the idea of not knowing.  All that is known is the Archdemon dies and so does the grey warden killing it (at least without Flemeth's ritual).  

 

And yes, I dislike Loghain, but tbh I can understand where he's coming from, his motives don't stem from self interest, but a genuine desire (if twisted and wrong by the demons in his past) to do what's best for his country.  Which means he isn't even the character I hate the most in the game--that would be Howe who has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever.  Loghain's not even top 5 for me.  To argue for honor's sake (and it is Loghain's choice) is fine, I can accept it on that premise, and I feel in that they did the actual conversation at that moment on the roof right, but I agree that utterly destroying a man just for the sake of a petty vendetta is evil and my warden's aren't that.  I'm just not hard wired to play that kind of evil, I'd never reach that point in the game.  I don't kill him in the Landsmeet out of vengeance, that's the only option I feel fits the crimes since I can't lock him away for the rest of the game.  If I had been given that as an option I'd have taken it because I hate the idea of killing a man right in front of his child.

 

As for the funeral (or lack thereof) I don't want to sit there and 'imagine' some funeral scene in my head.  I wanted to experience it!  I wanted that payoff of emotional investment put into the ending, instead I get some lame ass party with Anora giggly about how she's now queen (and is no different than if you'd done the DR ending except your fellow warden is now gone), which makes it seem like the other two wardens were an afterthought in the process--it felt like Bioware stopped trying at that point.  Or at least some kind of mention for the man who traveled with you for the entire year, and potentially was your warden's love (Alistair) or opposed you but turned out to be an okay guy who met his ending with courage and conviction (Loghain).  Instead we get one throwaway line from Wynne/Anora addressing their demise and that's it.  

 

Usually I prefer happy endings to my stories anyway, so more often than not I've done the DR because I like Morrigan.  Even if I felt she had ulterior motives for doing what she did, I do believe she's being honest when she says she cares about the warden and doesn't want him/her to die.  

Spoiler

And metagame, I know it turns out okay in the end (with some major Morrigan character growth in Inquisition).

 

Avernus hasn't dealt with the Calling, even he admits his time (however stretched out it had been because of the blood magic) is limited.  It could be his research is on to something, and I usually let him live to continue ethical research (I didn't want to hear about Levi's kids coming up missing) so there could be something to it.  Bioware addresses that issue in Inquisition to some extent with the Hero of Ferelden's mission, and inquisition seems like it's setting up for some interesting times to come with the grey wardens, even if they never take center stage again.  

 

I never saw the grey warden's plan in Inquisition as something they came up with, but as part of the manipulation of Corypheus/his agent to get them under his thumb.  It could be it's a bit of both, though.  I guess I'm on the fence with this point.

[Aren]

Loghain redemption is my happy ending,i don't trust Morrigan never liked her character never see any redeeming feature coming from her(not even in DAI), and i will never allow to use a non consenting child for blood magic experiment to interfere at the level of it's essence  for Mythal desire,after the 2nd ritual in which the soul is removed from him,he doesn't seem to be so fine.

Never trusted Flemeth or Solas  to the point to give  something to them with my warden actions(especially after the event of the idiot ball), even if it was corrupted i cannot forgive the AD/old  god either for the immense destruction caused by him,so Loghain was my choice,but hey neither Anora neither Alistair(especially in DAII) were so sad on how things turned out

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

<snort>  Absurd.  Howe just murdered his own liege lord and the only friend he had among the peerage.  Loghain rewards him by making him the most powerful lord in the country second only to Loghain as regent and lets him take control of the capital.  If Howe's slaughter of the Couslands was on his own initiative, if he was that reckless and out of control, that's as good as Loghain cutting his own throat when he could instead have handed Denerim, Highever, and Amaranthine over to three of the disgruntled lords of the bannorn before they were in outright rebellion.  Loghain giving all of that to Howe, plus leaving him in control of the noble hostages and then his own daughter and source of Loghain's closest claim to a legitimate regency, and keeping Howe as his closest advisor and hatchet-man (hiring assassins and the like) doesn't say "reluctant tolerance of an unreliable man to keep him from turning on me".  It's "I really, deeply trust this man, like a hand trusts a glove."  And despite Howe's corruption, after the massacre he keeps his unauthorized misdeeds down to a bit of embezzlement and some recreational torture.  

 

Nor does it make sense for Howe to count on being given this leeway if he has been given no assurances in advance.  Had the battle gone swimmingly, the blight defeated and Cailan and Fergus returned in triumph to find out that Howe was trying to take over Highever over the dead body of Fergus's son...well there would have been harsh admonitions.  

 

Also you're wrong about circumstantial evidence.  Without it, pretty much the only crimes that could be dealt with would be those with confessions, living eyewitnesses or videorecordings.  

He didn't so much give Howe the north as he came back from Ostagar to find Howe already had it. The same applies to the capital. And Anora just walked into Howe's house and asked questions that gave Loghain reason not to object when Howe imprisoned her (though he drew the line at killing her.) You're right in that Howe should have been dislodged from those positions, but the problem is that as I've already stated the country already has two (or three, as Loghain believes) enemies to deal with. Offering Denerim or Amaranthine or Highever to the ones he wanted to pacify would have worked, but only for three of them and only if they're okay with the fact that his offers aren't yet worth the paper they're written on due to Howe continuing to give orders in those regions. (And it wouldn't have worked at all for Teagan, who is rebelling out of loyalty to Cailan, or for the lords who thought they could take more power due to the power vacuum.) Loghain's actions could be be interpreted either as granting him rewards, or as just not complaining when he takes things so as not to open up another front. In short, even assuming Loghain didn't condone what Howe had done, there's reasons for him to overlook it. (That's not to mention that Loghain was apparently going to Howe for political advice. I'm not arguing that Loghain's the sharpest knife in the drawer, just that he thought he might need to cross some lines.)

 

I agree that Cailan probably would have sent troops after Howe had he lived, but don't forget: Cailan thought that the darkspawn were about to be completely routed (and only died because that wasn't the case,) wasn't dealing with rebels from the Bannorn, and for some reason viewed having the Orlesian army in his country as a good thing. (Possibly because his plan would have meant that he can technically tell them what to do.) If all had gone according to his plan, the army of Ferelden would have had nothing better to do than to put Fergus back into Highever castle. (Even if it didn't Cailan might not have cared, since I'm not convinced he'd even know that fighting on several fronts is a problem. Say what you will about Loghain, he's at least sharper than Cailan.)

 

As for Howe counting on this leeway if he hadn't been given assurances in advance... the guy's just a moron. I'm not only talking about this one maneuver. He embezzles in a time of war, and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own home. He should be keeping Irminric, Vaughn, and Oswyn in a place he can pretend he's never heard of, if they need to be kept alive at all. (And there's a very good argument for killing them and making sure the bodies are never found, though at least in Oswyn's case there might be a better argument for not taking him at all: IIRC everything he explicitly stated he heard was stuff that could have been explained away even if he'd thought to pass it on to his father.) Howe's also apparently entirely without fear, to judge by the complete lack of fear that he displays even when bleeding out on his own floor. Doing this without permission in advance isn't entirely out of character for this guy. (Again, I'm not arguing going to this guy for political advice is smart.)

 

As for circumstantial evidence, I'm not arguing it should be inadmissible. Merely that hanging people should require more. If that means guilty people go free, oh well. I'm not saying I'm okay with that, just that I'm less okay with the alternative.

[Illegitimus]

Since my point was that evidence did in fact exist of Loghain's culpabiliity in betraying the king, I think I've proved my point.  There is evidence.

 

Apart from that, I brought up Anora not because her imprisonment was unreasonable, but because if Loghain didn't trust Howe implicitly then he never for a moment would have had Anora stay imprisoned by Howe.  He would have removed her from Howe's custody as soon as his captain could ride across town rather than leave his only child, and the only slight thread of legitimacy to his ursurpation in the hands of a man he didn't trust.  No interpretation of the text that suggests that Loghain had a problem with Howe withstands examination.  

 

It's remotely credible that Loghain didn't intend to kill Cailan until the moment he saw the signal and realized that he had an excuse that might pass muster.  It seems much more likely that he decided not to come during the planning meeting when Cailan threatened once again to call in the Orlesians.  It's not certain that he intended to kill Cailan at all before then.  It could be that he was just murdering Bryce and Eamon because of their Orlesian ties and potential influence  over Cailan, figuring that Cailan was such a flutterwit that he could cover what his agents had done and steer Cailan away from Orlais now that nobody else would have access.  That would be an underestimation of Cailan I think.  Cailan wasn't especially bright, but he wasn't quite that controllable or quite as stupid as he seemed.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Since my point was that evidence did in fact exist of Loghain's culpabiliity in betraying the king, I think I've proved my point.  There is evidence.

My point is that it's not all that strong, though. Most of it's circumstantial and most of it has plausible alternative explanations. The only thing where Gaider's explanations really seem like a stretch are with Eamon's poisoning.

 

Apart from that, I brought up Anora not because her imprisonment was unreasonable, but because if Loghain didn't trust Howe implicitly then he never for a moment would have had Anora stay imprisoned by Howe.  He would have removed her from Howe's custody as soon as his captain could ride across town rather than leave his only child, and the only slight thread of legitimacy to his ursurpation in the hands of a man he didn't trust.  No interpretation of the text that suggests that Loghain had a problem with Howe withstands examination.

Mostly fair, but don't forget that Howe had been surprisingly forthright and honest with Loghain himself. If Howe had wanted to do the Crow thing or the slavery thing without Loghain's permission, he could have. And if he'd wanted to kill Anora and try the "pin it on the Warden" plan without Loghain's permission, he could have. There's reasons for Loghain to believe that Howe is at least partially loyal to Loghain himself, even if Loghain is annoyed by some of the things Howe has done against others.

 

It's remotely credible that Loghain didn't intend to kill Cailan until the moment he saw the signal and realized that he had an excuse that might pass muster.  It seems much more likely that he decided not to come during the planning meeting when Cailan threatened once again to call in the Orlesians.  It's not certain that he intended to kill Cailan at all before then.  It could be that he was just murdering Bryce and Eamon because of their Orlesian ties and potential influence  over Cailan, figuring that Cailan was such a flutterwit that he could cover what his agents had done and steer Cailan away from Orlais now that nobody else would have access.  That would be an underestimation of Cailan I think.  Cailan wasn't especially bright, but he wasn't quite that controllable or quite as stupid as he seemed.  

A: I can't help but feel that many of the assumptions regarding Ostagar that seem to influence this paragraph are called into question by points I've raised that you've yet to actually refute.

B: I personally view marrying Celene in favor of Anora because of Anora's perceived infertility, with Celene being even older than Anora and coming with the "joining our kingdom with the one most of the sitting nobles were once tyrannized by" baggage, as evidence that Cailan was far dumber than he seemed.

[Illegitimus]

 

A: I can't help but feel that many of the assumptions regarding Ostagar that seem to influence this paragraph are called into question by points I've raised that you've yet to actually refute.

B: I personally view marrying Celene in favor of Anora because of Anora's perceived infertility, with Celene being even older than Anora and coming with the "joining our kingdom with the one most of the sitting nobles were once tyrannized by" baggage, as evidence that Cailan was far dumber than he seemed.

 

A:  The fact is IF Loghain had enough information to know that the signal had come too late, then he had enough information to know to attack without the signal.  He didn't.  His second in command had no idea that they were about to march away.  Loghain abandoned Cailan.

 

B:  It's routine medieval deal making.  It might have been a mistake but it's not evidence of great stupidity.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A:  The fact is IF Loghain had enough information to know that the signal had come too late, then he had enough information to know to attack without the signal.  He didn't.  His second in command had no idea that they were about to march away.  Loghain abandoned Cailan.

 

B:  It's routine medieval deal making.  It might have been a mistake but it's not evidence of great stupidity.  

A: If Loghain charges before that long darkspawn column we can see from the bridge to the Tower of Ishal is finished committing, he opens himself up to a flanking maneuver like the one he's hoping to perform on the darkspawn. He needs to charge when the darkspawn are finished committing, which he can mess up by depending on his own eyes if, say, there's a several hundred meter gap in the line. It's entirely plausible that he can have enough information to know when not to attack without knowing for sure when to do so.

B: Given the factors I mentioned in my last post, I fail to see how it's not evidence of great stupidity.

[Natureguy85]

 

It's remotely credible that Loghain didn't intend to kill Cailan until the moment he saw the signal and realized that he had an excuse that might pass muster.  It seems much more likely that he decided not to come during the planning meeting when Cailan threatened once again to call in the Orlesians.  It's not certain that he intended to kill Cailan at all before then.  It could be that he was just murdering Bryce and Eamon because of their Orlesian ties and potential influence  over Cailan, figuring that Cailan was such a flutterwit that he could cover what his agents had done and steer Cailan away from Orlais now that nobody else would have access.  That would be an underestimation of Cailan I think.  Cailan wasn't especially bright, but he wasn't quite that controllable or quite as stupid as he seemed.  

 

 

This is where I've always stood. I don't know that it was mentioning Orlais or if it was just generally not listening to Loghain, but it's quite clear from the scene construction that this was the deciding point. Listen to Loghain's voice as he says the line that closes the scene and notice how Loghain walks away and the camera focuses on him. Some of this is meta-anaylsis, but it's how movies are made.

 

 

A: If Loghain charges before that long darkspawn column we can see from the bridge to the Tower of Ishal is finished committing, he opens himself up to a flanking maneuver like the one he's hoping to perform on the darkspawn. He needs to charge when the darkspawn are finished committing, which he can mess up by depending on his own eyes if, say, there's a several hundred meter gap in the line. It's entirely plausible that he can have enough information to know when not to attack without knowing for sure when to do so.

 

 

Unless he had information that Cauthrien didn't, it's clear Loghain's mind was made up. When the signal came, Cauthrien expected to attack. This question applies in either case, but if Loghain knew the signal was too late, why did he wait until he got the signal to leave?

[Callidus Thorn]

Unless he had information that Cauthrien didn't, it's clear Loghain's mind was made up. When the signal came, Cauthrien expected to attack. This question applies in either case, but if Loghain knew the signal was too late, why did he wait until he got the signal to leave?

Because he was suspicious of the Grey Wardens.

They'd have had estimates of the size darkspawn force. Loghain would have a rough idea of how long Cailan's force would be able to hold. So it's all about the signal. It's either on time, doesn't get lit at all, or it comes too late.

No signal would mean that the tower fell to the darkspawn, or that Cailan's force was destroyed before the darkspawn were in position. In either event it means the plan failed and the darkspawn are a greater threat than he expected.

But a late signal would denote an attempt to lure him into a battle he can't win. And it would be Grey Wardens that would be lighting the signal fire. With an Orlesian force near Ferelden, if the Wardens were in league with Orlais it would be a perfect opportunity to remove Ferelden of its best general and its primary fighting force. In that event Orlais would be virtually unopposed. And in Loghain's mind Orlais was the real threat, or at least a greater threat than the darkspawn.

[Natureguy85]

But a late signal would denote an attempt to lure him into a battle he can't win. And it would be Grey Wardens that would be lighting the signal fire. With an Orlesian force near Ferelden, if the Wardens were in league with Orlais it would be a perfect opportunity to remove Ferelden of its best general and its primary fighting force. In that event Orlais would be virtually unopposed. And in Loghain's mind Orlais was the real threat, or at least a greater threat than the darkspawn.

 

Very interesting. I have never heard this proposal and I'm not 100% on it, but it's a great idea. It's been a long time so remind me; what was it that showed Loghain had an actual distrust of the Wardens in regards to Orlais? I remember it more as a lack of trust in them as necessary saviors and then they were convenient scape goats.

[Callidus Thorn]

Very interesting. I have never heard this proposal and I'm not 100% on it, but it's a great idea. It's been a long time so remind me; what was it that showed Loghain had an actual distrust of the Wardens in regards to Orlais? I remember it more as a lack of trust in them as necessary saviors and then they were convenient scape goats.

Well, the Grey Wardens have a bad history in Ferelden anyway, having been kicked out for attempting to overthrow a king. The Grey Warden reinforcements were coming from Orlais, and were with the chevaliers. It's worth noting that the the Grey Wardens with the chevaliers were not allowed into Ferelden. Considering Loghain's paranoia where Orlais is concerned(though it could be argued to be justified up to a point), and the Grey Warden's history in Ferelden it wouldn't have been surprising for him to suspect a connection between the two.

And on the out of game side there's the events of Dragon Age: The Calling.

[Natureguy85]

Well, the Grey Wardens have a bad history in Ferelden anyway, having been kicked out for attempting to overthrow a king. The Grey Warden reinforcements were coming from Orlais, and were with the chevaliers. It's worth noting that the the Grey Wardens with the chevaliers were not allowed into Ferelden. Considering Loghain's paranoia where Orlais is concerned(though it could be argued to be justified up to a point), and the Grey Warden's history in Ferelden it wouldn't have been surprising for him to suspect a connection between the two.

And on the out of game side there's the events of Dragon Age: The Calling.

 

Yeah, it all makes sense, but I didn't remember if the game brought up anything explicitly. I don't rely on anything out of game though.  I like your idea that Loghain was afraid of the late signal and he'd go down there to find Cailan's forces dead and be overwhelmed. However, that still doesn't answer my question that if Loghain had already committed to not helping Cailan, why did he wait for the signal to pull out. Why not leave immediately or at least when the signal was supposed to come, but didn't?

 

Loghains concerns make it interesting that the people of Amaranthine will suspect an Orlesian plot if an Orlesian Warden burns the city in Awakening.

[Mike3207]

I get the impression that Gaider is doing a little after the fact white-washing of Loghain because he regrets not making things more ambiguous.  Just going by the in game text I'm left with the insuperable problem of why, if Loghain was not conspiring with Cousland's murderer, does he then proceed to shower said murderer with status and gold?  We know Loghain conspired to murder Eamon and we are expected to believe that it's just a coincidence that Howe happened to murder the other of the two highest ranking noblemen in the kingdom at the same time, right before Loghain tried to take the throne, and Loghain just failed to notice Howe's treason when deciding to hand out goodies?  How did Howe expect to get away with a quite unsubtle treasonous mass murder without someone of very high rank to cover for him?   I would rather have Loghain be a passably smart villain (apart from his minor insanity that causes him to refuse to see any threat as more significant than Orlais) than have Howe and Loghain both be such lucky idiots.   And since the Warden doesn't have access to Gaider's tweets, his decision about Loghain's guilt has to be based on what he sees, and what he sees looks exactly like a premeditated conspiracy to take the kingdom.  It's circumstantial evidence but people can and do hang on circumstantial evidence.  

 

As for the party banter, isn't it the case that Loghain is merely acquitting himself of involvement with Uldred's decision to go wild with blood magic and turn into an Abomination?  What Uldred was trying to do before Wynne denounced him was perfectly consistent with Loghain's desire to have to more mages with his forces.  Nearly destroying the tower wasn't Uldred's plan until he lost control and hence could not have been his conspiracy.  

I've got to take issue with this. There's no evidence Loghain was trying to kill Eamon, more it was simply looking to incapacitate him for a limited period of time. The poison could have been well designed to put Eamon into a coma, so that he was simply unable to be involved in politics until after a ruler was chosen. I'm sure Eamon's son felt differently, but a demon is not likely to tell the person dealing with him/her the true facts in any case.

[Illegitimus]

 Bah.  That idea depends on Loghain knowing that there would soon be a vacancy, which means a pre-planned betrayal of Cailan, in which case even if there was some kind of magic potion that could put Eamon into a months long coma while preserving his life, why would he care enough about Eamon's welfare to use it even while he left his son in law, the king to die?  Eamon even had a Orlesian wife to ensure that Loghain would want him dead.  

[Callidus Thorn]

Yeah, it all makes sense, but I didn't remember if the game brought up anything explicitly. I don't rely on anything out of game though.  I like your idea that Loghain was afraid of the late signal and he'd go down there to find Cailan's forces dead and be overwhelmed. However, that still doesn't answer my question that if Loghain had already committed to not helping Cailan, why did he wait for the signal to pull out. Why not leave immediately or at least when the signal was supposed to come, but didn't?
 
Loghains concerns make it interesting that the people of Amaranthine will suspect an Orlesian plot if an Orlesian Warden burns the city in Awakening.

Well, we're told that the Orlesian forces haven't been allowed into Ferelden and that Grey Warden reinforcements were with them, and we see plenty of Loghain's stance against Orlais. We also see Cailan's obsession with he Warden's, so Loghain openly accusingthem of Orlesian collaboration wouldn't really have made sense. Cailan would simply brush it off as paranoia and spout some of his gibberish about the Grey Warden's being heroes.

As for waiting, Loghain waited to see who his enemy was. Once he realises the signal is late, he needs to know what happened, which is the more pressing threat: Orlais or the darkspawn. If there was no signal, and the darkspawn were a greater threat than he realised, then the Orlesian Wardens could be allowed into Ferelden to help deal with the darkspawn. If the signal is late, the bait in a trap, then the treachery of the Wardens is revealed, and it suggests that Orlais believes itself able to defeat the darkspawn while invading Ferelden, thereby reinforcing his belief that it isn't a Blight, and cementing Orlais in his mind as the threat that needs to be addressed. He'll fight the darkspawn, but will preserve as much of his forces as possible to fend off the Orlesian attack.

Can't comment on that last part, never managed to get through Awakening without being glitched out.

[Natureguy85]

I've got to take issue with this. There's no evidence Loghain was trying to kill Eamon, more it was simply looking to incapacitate him for a limited period of time. The poison could have been well designed to put Eamon into a coma, so that he was simply unable to be involved in politics until after a ruler was chosen. I'm sure Eamon's son felt differently, but a demon is not likely to tell the person dealing with him/her the true facts in any case.

 

I got the impression that he was dying. Remember that Eamon still needs the Ashes even after the Demon is dealt with.

 

Well, we're told that the Orlesian forces haven't been allowed into Ferelden and that Grey Warden reinforcements were with them, and we see plenty of Loghain's stance against Orlais. We also see Cailan's obsession with he Warden's, so Loghain openly accusingthem of Orlesian collaboration wouldn't really have made sense. Cailan would simply brush it off as paranoia and spout some of his gibberish about the Grey Warden's being heroes.

As for waiting, Loghain waited to see who his enemy was. Once he realises the signal is late, he needs to know what happened, which is the more pressing threat: Orlais or the darkspawn. If there was no signal, and the darkspawn were a greater threat than he realised, then the Orlesian Wardens could be allowed into Ferelden to help deal with the darkspawn. If the signal is late, the bait in a trap, then the treachery of the Wardens is revealed, and it suggests that Orlais believes itself able to defeat the darkspawn while invading Ferelden, thereby reinforcing his belief that it isn't a Blight, and cementing Orlais in his mind as the threat that needs to be addressed. He'll fight the darkspawn, but will preserve as much of his forces as possible to fend off the Orlesian attack.

Can't comment on that last part, never managed to get through Awakening without being glitched out.

 

You might be right. I think you're going beyond the written narrative a bit but it certainly is a plausible explanation.

 

That's too bad. Awakening was fun. The thing I mentioned was from one of the Epilogue slides. If you don't import a Warden from Origins, you play an Orlesian Warden.