3201 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

In fairness, Teagan really was partially responsible. As for wanting to marry Anora, that doesn't require Loghain to survive.

 

No, but I've seen people use that as an excuse.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, but I've seen people use that as an excuse.

It's hardly persuasive, though.

[Xetykins]

I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

• meta knowledge and/or speculation
• headcanon
• wanting the Warden to marry Anora and be King himself tra la la
• Howe did it. ALL OF IT.
• "It's all Teagan's fault for starting a civil war!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!"
• Orlesians. ORLESIANS!!! (Except the one that is Anora's bestie, She's okay. Or invisible. Or something.)
• a burning lust for Alistair's head on a pike that can only be slaked by keeping Loghain's off of one

Anora probably hides her elf under her peticoat around loghain.
By the way, I almost always let Leli or Zev duel him at the landsmeet for my own personal amusement.

[Cobra's_back]

I can see your point if Howe was an option, but Loghain? Loghain is broken by this point. (Though I'm saying this from a metagame position. I can see an argument that the Warden would be a moron to trust Loghain. Edit: Or Sten, or Zevran, or Velanna.)

 

Excellent point and I agree with you 100%. It doesn't make sense to trust Sten, Velanna or Zevran. We do this just because we want more game time and extra quest. To be a purest I shouldn't take them. I might try playing it this way.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Excellent point and I agree with you 100%. It doesn't make sense to trust Sten, Velanna or Zevran. We do this just because we want more game time and extra quest. To be a purest I shouldn't take them. I might try playing it this way.

I actually did kill Velanna on my current playthrough. I don't usually do this, because that means I'm short a mage, but I wanted a playthrough where I killed her.

[DarthGizka]

 

I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

• meta knowledge and/or speculation

 

This runs afoul of your meta/speculation item but perhaps it might be acceptable: killing Loghain after he has yielded according to the terms of the duel has the potential to be extremely divisive or even incendiary. In another thread I mocked up what the common folk might think about that after Loghain's fairly successful campaign of smearing the Wardens, or how it could be portrayed by Howe/Ceorlic-style assholes for their own purposes. Besides common folk, two important factions here are honest followers of Loghain like Cauthrien and probably a lot of the army, and unscrupulous people who might want to exploit this for their own purposes (above-mentioned Ceorlic & Co.).

[Jaison1986]

I actually did kill Velanna on my current playthrough. I don't usually do this, because that means I'm short a mage, but I wanted a playthrough where I killed her.

 

Yeah, if you are going to execute Loghain at the landsmeet you should stay true to your views. If you don't want criminal at the wardens, recruiting Velanna goes against everything you believe. My warden for example recruited Loghain, and by that mindset, he also recruited Velanna. He didn't liked her one bit, but was willing to put personal feelings aside for the greater good.

[Cobra's_back]

I actually did kill Velanna on my current playthrough. I don't usually do this, because that means I'm short a mage, but I wanted a playthrough where I killed her.

 

I like the way you think. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah, if you are going to execute Loghain at the landsmeet you should stay true to your views. If you don't want criminal at the wardens, recruiting Velanna goes against everything you believe. My warden for example recruited Loghain, and by that mindset, he also recruited Velanna. He didn't liked her one bit, but was willing to put personal feelings aside for the greater good.

There's consistent worldviews that end with one living and the other dying. You can trust yourself to control Loghain where you can't trust Velanna, due to one being a warrior and the other being a mage. Or you can figure that Loghain was a slaver. Or you could figure that Loghain's interpretation of events was mostly logically consistent, and how the hell did the darkspawn fool Velanna by piling weapons in her camp?

[kalasaurus]

Anora probably hides her elf under her peticoat around loghain.
By the way, I almost always let Leli or Zev duel him at the landsmeet for my own personal amusement.

 

Zevran's definitely my favorite for the duel.

 

"Does anyone else see the irony in this?" XD

[Cobra's_back]

Yeah, if you are going to execute Loghain at the landsmeet you should stay true to your views. If you don't want criminal at the wardens, recruiting Velanna goes against everything you believe. My warden for example recruited Loghain, and by that mindset, he also recruited Velanna. He didn't liked her one bit, but was willing to put personal feelings aside for the greater good.

 

It shouldn't be for personal reason at all. I believe you have to determine whether the person is predictable or a possible danger to the team. Sten and Velanna have already proven themselves to be mass murderers. I'm going to kill her as well.

[Ryzaki]

Ah dueling Loghain. My CE is a fav.

[Chashan]

And what part of "the taint is overwhelming the country" do you think Loghain missed?  Because until you force the issue in the Landsmeet he's ignoring what's right there in front of his face.  I'm not talking myth and legend here, this is current events.  And if he wants to claim it's just a large incursion by darkspawn that's bad enough because it's having the same effect as a full on Blight.  Until the PC him/herself sees the Archdemon, they aren't convinced either (at least that's how I play mine).

The effects of the taint can be seen as early as Ostagar with the soldiers going all 'whackadoo' in the first aid center located by the deserter in the cage.  It's long lasting effects (from the first blight) is present in the PRESENT DAY in the Anderfels.  It's not 'myth and legend' its a current state.

 

The reason the treaties alone don't work is every single one is in no position to give the Warden the troops he/she needs.  Those must be resolved so the people in charge can help, no one says "We can't help because we think you're lying/exaggerating the situation".

 

The Anderfels is hardly the very centre of Thedas, and it is not an entirely alien concept for one part of a fantasy-setting to fully acknowledge the Big Bad's existence while another, far-off, laughs at the mere notion, simply due to sheer distance and make-belief.

I'll grant that DA:O does not fully drive this home, yet given the very limited knowledge which we read of from a Fereldan perspective in the codex it is quite credible to assume that yes, the true gravity of the situation is not fully grasped by Fereldans at large.

Speaking with meta-knowledge and hind-sight - the mail to Hawkes is delivered well after the Blight after all, isn't it - anything less but a unified front against the Blight does seem like utter folly. Taking what we may assume to be scant knowledge of the larger public of these Blight-related issues into account puts the dilemma post-Ostagar into perspective, however.

 

The latter is not entirely true, either: Zathrian's tribe could move on, cut its losses and leave the forest way, way behind, trying to get further Dalish support on the way if possible. They don't, as Zathrian wishes the werewolf-issue resolved. Similarly, rather than try to negotiate Teagan does stoke the Civil War, as was brought up. And the Orzammar guard who welcomes the Warden to the city also doesn't take the issue wholly seriously, stating that 'spawn are a daily occurrence for the dwarves.

Regarding the Circle, there may be something of a point, given the state of turmoil it is in once the Wardens get there on their recruitment-drive. Yet, since the Knight Commander is quite intent to call in the Right of Annulment and carry that out hisself one would assume he would do that and dispatch a Templar-force against the Blight after, if he were convinced enough of the seriousness of the situation.

 

 

 

theskymoves wrote...

a burning lust for Alistair's head on a pike that can only be slaked by keeping Loghain's off of one

 

Hardly less reasonable than the expressed scorn toward Mr Mac Tir, is it.

 

Besides, yes, I don't like 'stair, sue me.

[Cobra's_back]

Riverdaleswhitflash:

 

Does the script for Loghain ever have him acknowledge he was becoming a tyrant? Does he get he was paranoid and responsible for all those deaths or does he just try to make up excuses? 

 

I know Sten can't be trusted even at 100% approval. He told the warden he would hate to see him on the battlefield and he said something about it is just a matter of time before the Qunari will attack Ferelden. I accidentally found this conversation with him late in the game after I already had 100% approval.

[theskymoves]

And what part of "the taint is overwhelming the country" do you think Loghain missed?  Because until you force the issue in the Landsmeet he's ignoring what's right there in front of his face.  I'm not talking myth and legend here, this is current events.  And if he wants to claim it's just a large incursion by darkspawn that's bad enough because it's having the same effect as a full on Blight.  Until the PC him/herself sees the Archdemon, they aren't convinced either (at least that's how I play mine).
The effects of the taint can be seen as early as Ostagar with the soldiers going all 'whackadoo' in the first aid center located by the deserter in the cage.  It's long lasting effects (from the first blight) is present in the PRESENT DAY in the Anderfels.  It's not 'myth and legend' its a current state.
 
The reason the treaties alone don't work is every single one is in no position to give the Warden the troops he/she needs.  Those must be resolved so the people in charge can help, no one says "We can't help because we think you're lying/exaggerating the situation".

 
This is the map of Ferelden, just after the Warden leaves Lothering. The Blight is that dark splotch at the lower center.

 
This is the map of Ferelden immediately after the Warden arrives in Denerim to call the Landsmeet. The Blight has spread, and consumed nearly the entire nation.

 
And this is a videocap of that map which better shows how grave the situation is.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Riverdaleswhitflash:

 

Does the script for Loghain ever have him acknowledge he was becoming a tyrant? Does he get he was paranoid and responsible for all those deaths or does he just try to make up excuses? 

 

I know Sten can't be trusted even at 100% approval. He told the warden he would hate to see him on the battlefield and he said something about it is just a matter of time before the Qunari will attack Ferelden. I accidentally found this conversation with him late in the game after I already had 100% approval.

He admits that he has done a lot of wrong at the end of the game, right before he asks to atone by doing the US in the Warden's place. If you ask him to do the DR, he tries to back out on those same grounds.

 

I will note that he never lists Ostagar as one of those mistakes, and that all he says on the matter he says during RtO if you bring Wynne. I'll also note nobody is really able to refute his points there to his (or my) satisfaction.

[Iron Star]

I always thought he was much more interesting than Alistair, who always seemed kinda bland to me.

 

Also,

Spoiler

the fact that Alistair kills off Yavanna in the silent grove makes me hope that she survives if I don't make him king. I don't have the heart to kill him, but if he becomes a drunkard he can still exist, Yavanna might live, Loghains can survive and Anora rules. Win win, in my opinion.

[Cobra's_back]

He admits that he has done a lot of wrong at the end of the game, right before he asks to atone by doing the US in the Warden's place. If you ask him to do the DR, he tries to back out on those same grounds.

 

I will note that he never lists Ostagar as one of those mistakes, and that all he says on the matter he says during RtO if you bring Wynne. I'll also note nobody is really able to refute his points there to his (or my) satisfaction.

 

Thanks good input. Looks like a real story of redemption.

[Ryzaki]

 
This is the map of Ferelden, just after the Warden leaves Lothering. The Blight is that dark splotch at the lower center.
*snip*
This is the map of Ferelden immediately after the Warden arrives in Denerim to call the Landsmeet. The Blight has spread, and consumed nearly the entire nation.
*snip*
And this is a videocap of that map which better shows how grave the situation is.

 

And if we use metagame knowledge I believe in DA2 someone in Lothering sends Hawke a letter pretty much saying Lothering's having a extremely difficult time getting back on it's feet. And the blight only lasted a year.

 

If Bethany died in Lothering...
Dearest Leandra,

I hope you and the children are holding up. I'm so sorry about Bethany. Such a dear girl. I remember her helping me weed. The Blight has taken too much from us! Thank the Maker for the Hero of Ferelden and the Grey Wardens.

Things are slowly getting back to normal in most of the country, but Lothering is gone for good. We hoped to rebuild there, but the Blight poisoned the land. It'll take decades for the earth to recover. It may never.

Redcliffe is a nice place, and I'm starting to see it as home. The village saw some trouble during the Blight, but it's recovering. Perhaps you could visit sometime.

Please write me again, my dear. I wish to hear about your life in Kirkwall. Send my regrets and fond regards to the children.

Your friend,
Miriam

Source http://dragonage.wik..._from_Lothering

[Mike3207]

The Orlesians are a threat, and wishful thinking like the kind Alistair displays regarding the letters at Ostagar make me glad i do my best to keep him away from the throne.

 

That, or make sure he's placed in a position that limits the damage he would do as King.

[Ryzaki]

Eh it's one of the reasons I harden him and marry him to Anora. The two of them are quite formidable together and instead of having Anora's resources fight against him Alistair gets to use them to strengthen Fereldan instead.

[Xilizhra]

Anora probably hides her elf under her peticoat

*fans self*

 

 

Excellent point and I agree with you 100%. It doesn't make sense to trust Sten, Velanna or Zevran. We do this just because we want more game time and extra quest. To be a purest I shouldn't take them. I might try playing it this way.

Sten seems highly subdued and pliable in certain respects. Zevran... well, I don't kill him mostly because I just can't stab someone to death who's lying there asking to help me. Velanna was just misguided.

[Milan92]

No, but I've seen people use that as an excuse.

 

My excuse is that he becomes the Warden's father in law which is think is just really hilarious.

[Cobra's_back]

riverdalewhiteflash,

 

Did Loghain claim the the 200 wardens and associate army couldn't help win the battle of Ostagar? This is important to me. If they could have made a difference, I would have expected him to let them help. We can't say these soldier could do the same as the Orlesians before because they are not in power in Ferelden.

[Cobra's_back]

Eh it's one of the reasons I harden him and marry him to Anora. The two of them are quite formidable together and instead of having Anora's resources fight against him Alistair gets to use them to strengthen Fereldan instead.

 

Sounds like the best plan for Ferelden.