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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I got the impression that he was dying. Remember that Eamon still needs the Ashes even after the Demon is dealt with.

Because he was in a coma. That's not the same as dying. And if I remember correctly Teagan isn't too afraid of Eamon dying in the very near future. Besides, the demon's dialogue when you attack it in the Fade heavily implies that Eamon being out cold the way he was was it's doing. Why it possessed ontological inertia where other magic in this setting doesn't seem to I couldn't tell you. Maybe there was a lesser demon involved that the Ashes expelled or destroyed. Or maybe it warped the poison chemically while it did what it did, either to make its job easier or as a final screw-you when it was killed or expelled. (There's also unusually clear-cut Word Of Gaider on the matter, explicitly stating that the poison killing Eamon wasn't Plan A, but you probably wanted in-game stuff in that direction.)

 

 Bah.  That idea depends on Loghain knowing that there would soon be a vacancy, which means a pre-planned betrayal of Cailan, in which case even if there was some kind of magic potion that could put Eamon into a months long coma while preserving his life, why would he care enough about Eamon's welfare to use it even while he left his son in law, the king to die?  Eamon even had a Orlesian wife to ensure that Loghain would want him dead.  

Again: the coma from all I can tell was the demon's work. The poison's symptoms while it's the only actor, iirc, were difficulty walking and increased thirst. (This was from Teagan, I think.)

[Natureguy85]

Because he was in a coma. That's not the same as dying. And if I remember correctly Teagan isn't too afraid of Eamon dying in the very near future. Besides, the demon's dialogue when you attack it in the Fade heavily implies that Eamon being out cold the way he was was it's doing. Why it possessed ontological inertia where other magic in this setting doesn't seem to I couldn't tell you. Maybe there was a lesser demon involved that the Ashes expelled or destroyed. Or maybe it warped the poison chemically while it did what it did, either to make its job easier or as a final screw-you when it was killed or expelled. (There's also unusually clear-cut Word Of Gaider on the matter, explicitly stating that the poison killing Eamon wasn't Plan A, but you probably wanted in-game stuff in that direction.)

 

 

Again: the coma from all I can tell was the demon's work. The poison's symptoms while it's the only actor, iirc, were difficulty walking and increased thirst. (This was from Teagan, I think.)

 

I could be remembering incorrectly due to time, but I thought the demon was keeping Eamon from dying from the poison.

 

Yes, I prefer in-game stuff, though I accept Word of God unless I have reason to think it's after the fact or, worse, a retcon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I could be remembering incorrectly due to time, but I thought the demon was keeping Eamon from dying from the poison.

 

Do you remember that that was ever explicitly stated (or at least heavily implied) by one who would have reason to know for sure?

[Natureguy85]

Do you remember that that was ever explicitly stated (or at least heavily implied) by one who would have reason to know for sure?

 

It would have come from a character, most likely the Desire Demon or Connor. But I could have imagined it. It's been a long time since I played.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It would have come from a character, most likely the Desire Demon or Connor. But I could have imagined it. It's been a long time since I played.

I remember the Desire Demon implying that she was behind this, and Connor wouldn't necessarily know for sure since the WoG implies he was duped by the demon into thinking that there was some immediate danger to Eamon's life.

[Mike3207]

Connor.

 

"It was a fair deal. Father is alive, just like I wanted".

 

Of course, the demon wouldn't have disabused Connor of his belief that his father was dying. Deals don't get done that way.

[Illegitimus]

Because he was in a coma. That's not the same as dying. And if I remember correctly Teagan isn't too afraid of Eamon dying in the very near future. Besides, the demon's dialogue when you attack it in the Fade heavily implies that Eamon being out cold the way he was was it's doing. Why it possessed ontological inertia where other magic in this setting doesn't seem to I couldn't tell you. Maybe there was a lesser demon involved that the Ashes expelled or destroyed. Or maybe it warped the poison chemically while it did what it did, either to make its job easier or as a final screw-you when it was killed or expelled. (There's also unusually clear-cut Word Of Gaider on the matter, explicitly stating that the poison killing Eamon wasn't Plan A, but you probably wanted in-game stuff in that direction.)

 

 

But that doesn't make any sense at all.  If the poison wasn't to kill Eamon and didn't put Eamon in a coma...what was it going to do?  Give him hives?  If it had no effect, was it even a poison?  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But that doesn't make any sense at all.  If the poison wasn't to kill Eamon and didn't put Eamon in a coma...what was it going to do?  Give him hives?  If it had no effect, was it even a poison?  

It made him physically weaker and made him require a lot more water, as I understand it. Getting him to speak in front of the Landsmeet, or hell even getting him out of Redcliffe with their level of technology and magic, would have been an interesting challenge. And that's assuming the symptoms allowed him to get out of bed. (Oh, and not for nothing, but I'm pretty sure I said most of that that in the exact post you replied to.)

[FiveThreeTen]

Since my point was that evidence did in fact exist of Loghain's culpabiliity in betraying the king, I think I've proved my point.  There is evidence.

 

Apart from that, I brought up Anora not because her imprisonment was unreasonable, but because if Loghain didn't trust Howe implicitly then he never for a moment would have had Anora stay imprisoned by Howe.  He would have removed her from Howe's custody as soon as his captain could ride across town rather than leave his only child, and the only slight thread of legitimacy to his ursurpation in the hands of a man he didn't trust.  No interpretation of the text that suggests that Loghain had a problem with Howe withstands examination.  

 

It's remotely credible that Loghain didn't intend to kill Cailan until the moment he saw the signal and realized that he had an excuse that might pass muster.  It seems much more likely that he decided not to come during the planning meeting when Cailan threatened once again to call in the Orlesians.  It's not certain that he intended to kill Cailan at all before then.  It could be that he was just murdering Bryce and Eamon because of their Orlesian ties and potential influence  over Cailan, figuring that Cailan was such a flutterwit that he could cover what his agents had done and steer Cailan away from Orlais now that nobody else would have access.  That would be an underestimation of Cailan I think.  Cailan wasn't especially bright, but he wasn't quite that controllable or quite as stupid as he seemed.  

Though I would tend to agree with most of your points regarding Loghain's trust in Howe and his culpability, there are a few interesting tidbits about Eamon, from reading WOT vol2 that I think provide a more precise view of Loghain's motivations:

 

-"Eamon is as loyal as a Mabari" Maric once proclaimed. So Maric trusted Eamon and while Loghain and Maric often disagreed on things, I would think Loghain Loghain would still respect another lord who also fought in the rebellion.

 

-It's Howe and Maric who disapproved of Eamon's relationship with Isolde. I can't imagine Loghain would particularly approve, but it's Howe who make snide comment about Isolde during a banquet:"It seems our secrets are safe with Eamon, unless the ennemy has pretty ears"

 

-You learn he wanted to instill Ferelden pride to his son.  "The war with Orlais had forced Eamon from his country, and he was determined to impress upon his son the glory of Ferelden".

 

So I really think Eamon's poisoining was really more Howe's work rather than Loghain's (though he must have agreed to it, for pragmatic reasons). I keep thinking Loghain saw an opportunity and made a pragmatic decision at Ostagar but didn't plan the whole thing ahead.

What I mean is that I think Loghain disagreed on some things with Eamon, but didn't see him as an outright traitor sold to the ennemy (same for the Couslands).

 

A: I can't help but feel that many of the assumptions regarding Ostagar that seem to influence this paragraph are called into question by points I've raised that you've yet to actually refute.

B: I personally view marrying Celene in favor of Anora because of Anora's perceived infertility, with Celene being even older than Anora and coming with the "joining our kingdom with the one most of the sitting nobles were once tyrannized by" baggage, as evidence that Cailan was far dumber than he seemed.

B. Just a precision. We are told in the game Anora is approaching 30 in Origins without further precision. And Cailan was born in 9.05, so he is 25 at the time of Ostagar. There isn't any mention on Anora's age in WoT, but we know she was practically raised with him. And Celene is 26 in Origins. So even without knowing Anora's birthdate, I would imagine all three are fairly close in age, with Anora likely being slightly older.

Doesn't change his foolishness. What I keep questioning is the inconsistencies of that plot with some lines in The Masked Empire. Could likely be writers not communicating with eachother on that point.

[sylvanaerie]

Because he was in a coma. That's not the same as dying. And if I remember correctly Teagan isn't too afraid of Eamon dying in the very near future. Besides, the demon's dialogue when you attack it in the Fade heavily implies that Eamon being out cold the way he was was it's doing. Why it possessed ontological inertia where other magic in this setting doesn't seem to I couldn't tell you. Maybe there was a lesser demon involved that the Ashes expelled or destroyed. Or maybe it warped the poison chemically while it did what it did, either to make its job easier or as a final screw-you when it was killed or expelled. (There's also unusually clear-cut Word Of Gaider on the matter, explicitly stating that the poison killing Eamon wasn't Plan A, but you probably wanted in-game stuff in that direction.)

 

 

Again: the coma from all I can tell was the demon's work. The poison's symptoms while it's the only actor, iirc, were difficulty walking and increased thirst. (This was from Teagan, I think.)

Ser Perth fills the PC in.  Eamon was already in his coma and the castle was under siege when Teagan got there, and he was unaware Eamon had even been poisoned.

[sylvanaerie]

It would have come from a character, most likely the Desire Demon or Connor. But I could have imagined it. It's been a long time since I played.

Isolde. She says the 'force'--she doesn't know at this time (or refuses to acknowledge) that it's a demon--"It is keeping (Eamon) alive?"  I think the statement is more to let the PC know Eamon isn't yet dead though. She even suggests killing the demon may also kill her husband.  

No one really knows what would have happened in these circumstances, none of them is an expert at magic and demons, and even Jowan doesn't have all the answers for them.

[Illegitimus]

Though I would tend to agree with most of your points regarding Loghain's trust in Howe and his culpability, there are a few interesting tidbits about Eamon, from reading WOT vol2 that I think provide a more precise view of Loghain's motivations:

 

-"Eamon is as loyal as a Mabari" Maric once proclaimed. So Maric trusted Eamon and while Loghain and Maric often disagreed on things, I would think Loghain Loghain would still respect another lord who also fought in the rebellion.

 

-It's Howe and Maric who disapproved of Eamon's relationship with Isolde. I can't imagine Loghain would particularly approve, but it's Howe who make snide comment about Isolde during a banquet:"It seems our secrets are safe with Eamon, unless the ennemy has pretty ears"

 

-You learn he wanted to instill Ferelden pride to his son.  "The war with Orlais had forced Eamon from his country, and he was determined to impress upon his son the glory of Ferelden".

 

So I really think Eamon's poisoining was really more Howe's work 

 

 

Howe wasn't there.  He was off to the north killing the Couslands (or getting ready to).  Jowan spoke to Loghain personally when he was being recruited into the conspiracy.  And if the only thing wrong with Eamon was the demon's influence then surely he would have recovered when the demon was dealt with.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And if the only thing wrong with Eamon was the demon's influence then surely he would have recovered when the demon was dealt with.  

That is not at all sure. I've already given two cheats that the demon could have used to get around the "no ontological inertia" rule that seems to be the norm with actively cast magic in this setting, but they aren't actually necessary because we know that rule isn't hard and fast enough to require cheating: Zathrian managed to break it when he created a curse that would outlive him if he died despite being bound to his life, and killing the original werewolf it's centered around doesn't end the curse either. And while by the end Zathrian was probably way more experienced than that demon was, he likely only lived long enough to become so because of that very curse: it's not unreasonable to think that the demon can do anything Zathrian could have then.

 

Ser Perth fills the PC in.  Eamon was already in his coma and the castle was under siege when Teagan got there, and he was unaware Eamon had even been poisoned.

I meant that I didn't get the impression he thought his brother was in immediate danger after the demon died. He didn't seem at all nervous that Eamon would die due to the demon releasing its hold after it became clear that this did not immediately kill him.

[FiveThreeTen]

Howe wasn't there.  He was off to the north killing the Couslands (or getting ready to).  Jowan spoke to Loghain personally when he was being recruited into the conspiracy.  And if the only thing wrong with Eamon was the demon's influence then surely he would have recovered when the demon was dealt with.  

Yes I remember that elf who was hired by Loghain to watch the castle. But I don't find it hard to believe it was also Howe's idea (and no I'm not one of those people who discount Loghain actions because HOWE). I was just trying to cast light on Loghain's motivations regarding Redcliffe. Correct me if I'm wrong but Eamon falls into his coma after Ostagar?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes I remember that elf who was hired by Loghain to watch the castle. But I don't find it hard to believe it was also Howe's idea (and no I'm not one of those people who discount Loghain actions because HOWE). I was just trying to cast light on Loghain's motivations regarding Redcliffe. Correct me if I'm wrong but Eamon falls into his coma after Ostagar?

It is worth pointing out that the elf said he was working for someone who in turn said he was working for Rendon Howe. What this means as far as how far back Howe and Loghain were collaborating, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that even if Howe and Loghain were plotting together before Ostagar, that in and of itself doesn't require Loghain to have been an accessory to the Couslands murders before the fact rather than merely after. Although it does seem to give Loghain some reason to spare Howe even if he didn't approve of it. (By which I mean reason besides the "already fighting on multiple fronts" thing.)

[Illegitimus]

Yes I remember that elf who was hired by Loghain to watch the castle. But I don't find it hard to believe it was also Howe's idea (and no I'm not one of those people who discount Loghain actions because HOWE). I was just trying to cast light on Loghain's motivations regarding Redcliffe. Correct me if I'm wrong but Eamon falls into his coma after Ostagar?

 

No.  When you arrive at Lothering, Eamon has been comatose for long enough that the knights have been scouring the land looking for the ashes and a couple of them are waiting for the Warden to show up and take the lead they found.  You would have had to spend a ridiculous amount of time recuperating with Flemeth and Morrigan for his coma to postdate Ostagar.  In truth Jowan wouldn't have the chance to poison Eamon after Ostagar, because Eamon would have left before Ostagar just as Bryce would have, had he not been killed.   

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No.  When you arrive at Lothering, Eamon has been comatose for long enough that the knights have been scouring the land looking for the ashes and a couple of them are waiting for the Warden to show up and take the lead they found.  You would have had to spend a ridiculous amount of time recuperating with Flemeth and Morrigan for his coma to postdate Ostagar.  In truth Jowan wouldn't have the chance to poison Eamon after Ostagar, because Eamon would have left before Ostagar just as Bryce would have, had he not been killed.   

I agree that Eamon was probably taking doses before Ostagar, since the timeline makes no sense otherwise, but Duncan's line when you first meet Cailan implies that he wasn't there because he was being held back from Ostagar rather than because the poisoning had become a noticeable drain.

[TEWR]

Yes, Loghain should live.

 

No, he didn't betray Cailan, the army, or the Wardens at Ostagar.

 

The Demon tries to tell you that Eamon will die without her magic keeping him alive. Kill her and you kill Eamon, essentially. But kill her and Eamon's still locked in a coma, showing proof that the poison was meant to simply incapacitate, not kill.

 

I'm just throwing some general notes out here about this. It's surprising this will continue to be an issue (and in my mind proof that Loghain's development as a great antagonist was purely through providence and not intentional on Bioware's part, considering their track record). I'd tackle these things in depth for about the millionth time but I'm busy prepping to move.

[FiveThreeTen]

It is worth pointing out that the elf said he was working for someone who in turn said he was working for Rendon Howe. What this means as far as how far back Howe and Loghain were collaborating, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that even if Howe and Loghain were plotting together before Ostagar, that in and of itself doesn't require Loghain to have been an accessory to the Couslands murders before the fact rather than merely after. Although it does seem to give Loghain some reason to spare Howe even if he didn't approve of it. (By which I mean reason besides the "already fighting on multiple fronts" thing.)

Regarding Eamons poisoning and the Couslands murders I would tend to believe Howe acted first and then Loghain ultimately go along with it because he is now in a Civil War.

And I say this as someone who systematically execute Loghain when playing a Cousland/Tabris/Amell because of his involvment in each of these Origins.

 

No.  When you arrive at Lothering, Eamon has been comatose for long enough that the knights have been scouring the land looking for the ashes and a couple of them are waiting for the Warden to show up and take the lead they found.  You would have had to spend a ridiculous amount of time recuperating with Flemeth and Morrigan for his coma to postdate Ostagar.  In truth Jowan wouldn't have the chance to poison Eamon after Ostagar, because Eamon would have left before Ostagar just as Bryce would have, had he not been killed.   

I can see how Eamon falling ill just after Ostagar is a little too close to when you meet that Knight in Lothering. What wasn't very clear for me is wether Loghain himself asked Howe to poison Eamon/find a way to neutralize his forces.

It's worth pointing out that Teagan tells you Loghain refused to send troops to aid Redcliffe with the undead.

 

I agree that Eamon was probably taking doses before Ostagar, since the timeline makes no sense otherwise, but Duncan's line when you first meet Cailan implies that he wasn't there because he was being held back from Ostagar rather than because the poisoning had become a noticeable drain.

Also true. His troops were "retarded" and there wasn't any hint that it was because of Eamon status. Regarding the timeline, there is a cutscene where Teagan adresses Anora before you enter Lothering. I think he returns to Redcliffe because he heard of Eamon illness. It's Isolde who started sending Knights to find a cure.

[sylvanaerie]

The timeline is the worst part of Origins, making little to no sense when examined too closely.  The Blight (the whole game events) is supposed to be a year long.  Considering what origin you play and order you may do the treaty missions in, that means Eamon has been in his coma for nearly a year at one point or considerably less time.  Or Jowan could have escaped the circle (on the night the PC mage is recruited), been captured near Redcliffe, brought all the way to Denerim (by his account) to be recruited in person by Loghain "I recognized him from his portraits" and then returned to Redcliffe after the events of Ostagar, all while the PC is stumbling around with Alistair and Morrigan in the swamp, barely a short time later.  Or they may conceivably arrive in Redcliffe shortly after leaving Lothering if it's the first army recruitment mission.

 

No, Eamon isn't sick prior to Ostagar--he can't be, Jowan isn't recruited till after Loghain returns to Denerim.  Loghain is in Ostagar from the period of time between Jowan's escape and capture, not Denerim.  I don't even want to know how he found out about Isolde's son when her own husband didn't.  I'm going to assume shortly before that first Landsmeet is when the actual Jowan sent to do the dirty deed was done.  Teagan tells you he went to Redcliffe to see why Eamon wasn't at the Landsmeet following Ostagar.  It's not till Isolde comes out of the castle and tells him he was poisoned that Teagan learns some of what's happened.

 

And yet, as soon as you arrive in Lothering you hear from one of the knights that Eamon has 'fallen ill'.  So it's already been going on for X number of days.  I guess I'm to assume we spent weeks crawling around in the muck just trying to get to Lothering?

 

Too many holes in this story.

[Mike3207]

Yeah. the timeline's officially a mess.

 

You didn't even mention Wynne's dialogue with the PC Mage, where she claims it's been at least a year since the PC Mage left the Tower. I just chalk that up to a bit of senility beginning to set in with Wynne.

[The Heretic of Time]

Live. For several reasons:

 

1) Loghain didn't do anything wrong. The Warden was too late with lighting the beacon, by that time Loghain would simply march to his death. It would have been a pointless death. It was better for him to retreat and regroup.

 

2) Loghain is really cool in DA:I, much more interesting than that whiny little snot Alistair or that other Warden who's name I can't even remember.

 

3) If the above two reasons haven't convinced you yet, then keep him alive to let him take the final blow to the Arch Demon and let him die instead of you or Alistair (ofcourse this only applies if you decide not to have the Old God baby with Morrigan).

[Mike3207]

Live. For several reasons:

 

1) Loghain didn't do anything wrong. The Warden was too late with lighting the beacon, by that time Loghain would simply march to his death. It would have been a pointless death. It was better for him to retreat and regroup.

 

 

I'm as big a supporter of Loghain as anyone, but he did a few things wrong. More than a few actually. It's actually the things he did after Ostagar that hurt him the most.

[DebatableBubble]

Can't believe I'm dragging myself into this....

 

 

Loghain is one of my favorite characters. I kill him in some playthroughs, spare him in others. I think his character arc, possibly ending with his death in Inquisition, is one of the best. That said, Loghain's hands aren't as clean as some wish to believe. 

 

 

 

Just wanted to get that off my chest. And no, I'm not going to argue over this.