I thought the same... even if I executed him and thought he deserved it, Anora didn't have to see this... at least not this way.
I never tried the option where we can execute Alistair, haha. I'm trying to find a video on Youtube. It seems sooo evil to execute Alistair as Anora is asking 
I never tried the option where we can execute Alistair, haha. I'm trying to find a video on Youtube. It seems sooo evil to execute Alistair as Anora is asking
It's a similar situation as where Alistair puts Anora in the tower. If you don't imprison/kill the other person trying to take the throne, you're putting your reign at risk from that person raising a rebellion in the future. You'll note that when Anora does spare Alistair's life, she extracts an oath from him that neither he nor his heirs will claim the throne in the future. That way, civil war is avoided.
Keep in mind I executed Alistair multiple times in the past. I didn't like it, but I didn't see any other option as far as Eamon not using him to claim the throne. If my King Cousland wanted to keep his throne without fearing rebellion, there really was no other choice. The DA2 cameo with Drunk Alistair would sort of bear this view out.
I saw the cameo with the drunk Alistair and I don't wish him that kind of fate 
he was pathetic. (but I don't want him to die, either).
Very sad news in that Arsinoe de Blassenville, who wrote 2 of the best da stories in Keening Blade and Victory at Ostagar, passed away on April 26 this year. May she rest in peace and the best to her surviving family.
Very sad news in that Arsinoe de Blassenville, who wrote 2 of the best da stories in Keening Blade and Victory at Ostagar, passed away on April 26 this year. May she rest in peace and the best to her surviving family.
Oh.
Yeah, that is sad.
We always talk about whether Loghain should live, but it's just as important to ask: What do we gain from a practical point of view?
Loghain joins your group, and... Alistair leaves. You're not getting an extra Grey Warden. You got three just like before.
Loghain has more than thirty years of combat and command experience on Alistair though, and the adoration of most of the population, especially the army. Not to mention being the Queen's father. He can also canonically hunt and cook wildlife, unlike certain others. Between the two of them, Loghain would clearly be the bigger asset to the group. The only practical downside is his age which should theoretically give him only so long in which to be an effective Warden, but as we find out in DAI he's still a competent and badass part of the order well into his late sixties.
If we're talking practicality alone, it's basically a no-brainer.
Okay, something I have a real problem with is the Warden automatically giving Alistair leave to kill Loghain if you choose him as your champion. It just doesn't seem realistic to have the Landsmeet accept an elf, a mage, a Qunari or a dwarf as contestant in a duel like this, so to me he feels like the only "proper" opponent, but that doesn't mean I want him to murder Loghain in cold blood after the fight is obviously over. I really don't get the rationale behind this particular piece of railroading, and I resent that at some point down the line I'm going to have to set my tiny elven rogue or someone even more illogical up in a one-one-one duel with Loghain in front of the whole landsmeet if I want to be able to recruit him afterwards.
If Alistair went off the handle or killed him in the heat of battle I'd at least accept that as in-character, but no, he looks straight at you as if asking for approval, and your character just nods even if you're sitting at home screaming "Nonononono!" at the television.
Loghain has more than thirty years of combat and command experience on Alistair though, and the adoration of most of the population, especially the army. Not to mention being the Queen's father. He can also canonically hunt and cook wildlife, unlike certain others. Between the two of them, Loghain would clearly be the bigger asset to the group. The only practical downside is his age which should theoretically give him only so long in which to be an effective Warden, but as we find out in DAI he's still a competent and badass part of the order well into his late sixties.
If we're talking practicality alone, it's even more of a no-brainer.
That's if the Warden assumes he can be trusted not to betray the group. Metagame-wise, we know he can be, and there are reasons to believe he'll fall into line even in RP, but the RP reasons aren't quite enough to justify letting him keep weapons in the camp you sleep in.
Very sad news in that Arsinoe de Blassenville, who wrote 2 of the best da stories in Keening Blade and Victory at Ostagar, passed away on April 26 this year. May she rest in peace and the best to her surviving family.
Damn. I wrote with her just last July. Thank you for telling us. Her Harry Potter and Patriot fics are very highly recommended as well. The latter are several orders of magnitude more mature and realistic than the movie and very well-researched regarding the Georgian period. She put a LOT of work into those.
Loghain-lovers in particular should be able to appreciate her handling of Loghain himself, Severus Snape and Colonel Tavington. Really, she excelled at writing intelligent and pragmatic characters without turning them into caricatures or superheroes.
https://www.fanficti...de-Blassenville
That's if the Warden assumes he can be trusted not to betray the group. Metagame-wise, we know he can be, and there are reasons to believe he'll fall into line even in RP, but the RP reasons aren't quite enough to justify letting him keep weapons in the camp you sleep in.
Depends on how much your character trusts his/her own instincts, I suppose. Loghain seems very easy to read and trust, never giving you any doubt about where you've got him. It's no less justifiable than recruiting Zevran, and in both cases my personal headcanon has Sten, Morrigan and Wynne all keeping an eye on them and sword/paralysis/healing spells close at hand in case of betrayal. The Warden can be wary without being too worried. And the previous post was specifically in response to the question of practical benefits.
Okay, something I have a real problem with is the Warden automatically giving Alistair leave to kill Loghain if you choose him as your champion. It just doesn't seem realistic to have the Landsmeet accept an elf, a mage, a Qunari or a dwarf as contestant in a duel like this, so to me he feels like the only "proper" opponent, but that doesn't mean I want him to murder Loghain in cold blood after the fight is obviously over. I really don't get the rationale behind this particular piece of railroading, and I resent that at some point down the line I'm going to have to set my tiny elven rogue or someone even more illogical up in a one-one-one duel with Loghain in front of the whole landsmeet if I want to be able to recruit him afterwards.
If Alistair went off the handle or killed him in the heat of battle I'd at least accept that as in-character, but no, he looks straight at you as if asking for approval, and your character just nods even if you're sitting at home screaming "Nonononono!" at the television.
I have no problem with it. It's done by another character so the only "railroading" is that you can't object. Your resentment is based off of meta-gaming. You could also use Alistair and lose the duel, can't you? Or is that game over?
I forgot about the look and the nod. I just remembered Alistair saying "Forget Marick, this is for Duncan," and doing it. Does he do that automatically even if unhardened? I think it is within character, particularly if hardened, and, other than the pause to look at the Warden, is in the heat of battle. The duel is over but he's still all amped up.
I have no problem with it. It's done by another character so the only "railroading" is that you can't object. Your resentment is based off of meta-gaming. You could also use Alistair and lose the duel, can't you? Or is that game over?
I forgot about the look and the nod. I just remembered Alistair saying "Forget Marick, this is for Duncan," and doing it. Does he do that automatically even if unhardened? I think it is within character, particularly if hardened, and, other than the pause to look at the Warden, is in the heat of battle. The duel is over but he's still all amped up.
Like I said, your character automatically gives his/her approval for it. The fight is clearly over, Loghain has surrendered, Anora is watching in horror and Alistair is standing within arm's reach of the player character. The PC has plenty of opportunity and, depending on the RP, motivation to stop him from killing Loghain outright. To my understanding, Loghain beating Alistair is game over and Alistair kills him with your approval regardless of anything else if you name him your champion. This is definitely railroading, which makes no sense considering that every other path gives you the option of opposing Alistair's desire to kill him.
Killing someone who has been rendered helpless is the difference between voluntary manslaughter and an execution-style murder in real life regardless of circumstances. There's an obvious lull after the fight where he declares his intention, looks around and thinks before deciding to go through with it. That is by definition not in the heat of battle. It's still in character, being thoughtless and done out of personal spite, but you automatically giving your support and not intervening isn't.
Like I said, your character automatically gives his/her approval for it. The fight is clearly over, Loghain has surrendered, Anora is watching in horror and Alistair is standing within arm's reach of the player character. The PC has plenty of opportunity and, depending on the RP, motivation to stop him from killing Loghain outright. To my understanding, Loghain beating Alistair is game over and Alistair kills him with your approval regardless of anything else if you name him your champion. This is definitely railroading, which makes no sense considering that every other path gives you the option of opposing Alistair's desire to kill him.
Killing someone who has been rendered helpless is the difference between voluntary manslaughter and an execution-style murder in real life regardless of circumstances. There's an obvious lull after the fight where he declares his intention, looks around and thinks before deciding to go through with it. That is by definition not in the heat of battle. It's still in character, being thoughtless and done out of personal spite, but you automatically giving your support and not intervening isn't.
But an execution is exactly what it is. Alistair isn't thinking about it. He is committed to it, though he does check with the Warden first. Yes, the Warden giving the approving nod is taking control away from you, but Alistair killing Loghain without your (the player) approval is not.
Loghain has more than thirty years of combat and command experience on Alistair though, and the adoration of most of the population, especially the army. Not to mention being the Queen's father. He can also canonically hunt and cook wildlife, unlike certain others. Between the two of them, Loghain would clearly be the bigger asset to the group. The only practical downside is his age which should theoretically give him only so long in which to be an effective Warden, but as we find out in DAI he's still a competent and badass part of the order well into his late sixties.
If we're talking practicality alone, it's basically a no-brainer.
If Alistair went off the handle or killed him in the heat of battle I'd at least accept that as in-character, but no, he looks straight at you as if asking for approval, and your character just nods even if you're sitting at home screaming "Nonononono!" at the television.
I have a problem with that too. I prefer to think that my Warden would have recruited Loghain but Riordan never had the chance to propose the idea. But the nod flat out denies that.
Obviously the Warden didn't think of it. The Warden doesn't know the ritual and Alistair probably doesn't either. Riordan needed to suggest it.
Obviously the Warden didn't think of it. The Warden doesn't know the ritual and Alistair probably doesn't either. Riordan needed to suggest it.
But the Warden knows that Riordan probably knows. It's a simple matter of asking.
True, though I personally didn't think of recruiting my enemy.
But an execution is exactly what it is. Alistair isn't thinking about it. He is committed to it, though he does check with the Warden first. Yes, the Warden giving the approving nod is taking control away from you, but Alistair killing Loghain without your (the player) approval is not.
Again, he loudly states his intentions, checks in with the Warden and then approaches Loghain. That's not not thinking about it. That's him deciding that he really wants to kill Loghain right now, making sure the coast is clear and nobody is going to stop him, and then executing the man on the spot. The Warden is perfectly capable of stopping this process both physically and verbally, but decides to actively enable it by giving Alistair the all-clear instead. That's a major roleplaying decision being made by my character without my consent because some writer thought 'Alistair as champion' somehow equaled 'player wants Loghain dead'.
Again, he loudly states his intentions, checks in with the Warden and then approaches Loghain. That's not not thinking about it. That's him deciding that he really wants to kill Loghain right now, making sure the coast is clear and nobody is going to stop him, and then executing the man on the spot. The Warden is perfectly capable of stopping this process both physically and verbally, but decides to actively enable it by giving Alistair the all-clear instead. That's a major roleplaying decision being made by my character without my consent because some writer thought 'Alistair as champion' somehow equaled 'player wants Loghain dead'.
I think they were deciding to take it out of your hands at that point. I think the mistake was including that pause and nod, not in removing further choice.
That much he is, but I meant what advantage there is in terms of end-the-blighting. If you ask Loghain why wasn't he executed in DAI, he says "they needed every man they could get", not " because I'm an experienced general".
I have a problem with that too. I prefer to think that my Warden would have recruited Loghain but Riordan never had the chance to propose the idea. But the nod flat out denies that.
As for the champion choice... well, desperate times. No place for noticing your height or the shape of your ears. Besides, being a Grey Warden comes first as far as identity goes.
He was recruited in order to have one more Warden on hand, Alistair making a fuss and things not working out that way doesn't change the intention behind Riordan's proposal. Your other question was about what the party/Wardens gained in recruiting Loghain over Alistair. That's a different matter entirely.
Also, take some time to read about how black officers in the U.S. army were treated during World War II. Then tell me that there's no racism during a crisis. These are squabbling nobles in a tiny, poor, superstitious country at war. I'm frankly astonished that an elven Warden isn't kicked straight out of the Landsmeet, Qunari muscle, Antivan assassin and apostate mage in tow. That s/he's allowed to face the Regent in an honorable and traditional duel in front of the entire nobility who should then accept the result is so outrageous that I even feel a little scandalized myself.
I think they were deciding to take it out of your hands at that point. I think the mistake was including that pause and nod, not in removing further choice.
That's your prerogative. I find it railroading, illogical and annoying regardless.
As for justifying his actions, well... he does it everytime someone asks him about
I just watched the elven part, and I saw red. For someone who feels he should get a free pass for all the atrocities he committed because he was a victim of Orlesian "enslavement" (and claims most of the atrocities he committed was to keep Ferelden from being "enslaved" again) Loghain is wildly unsympathetic to an elf who would take umbrage with him selling their people (family and friends if a city elf) into slavery.
"Honestly, elf, do you think that among all my crimes is the one that keeps me up at night? It's a bit egotistical of you, don't you think?"
Why, hello crow, did you just call the raven black?
Wulff: "The South has fallen, Loghain! Would you let the darkspawn take the entire country for fear of Orlais?"
So letting half of Ferelden fall to darkspawn and betraying, kidnapping, torturing, executing and intimidating the rest of Ferelden into submission while darkspawn swarm around them because he can't get over his "enslavement" under Orlais is just fine, but an elf who doesn't instantly forgive him for selling their people (family and friends if a city elf) into slavery to fill his own coffers is being selfish and egotistical? Glad to know where he draws the line.
I think you just hit the nail on the head there.
(Best I not say anything else lest my temper betray me. Suffice it to say, I don't think he was in the right, and I don't trust him besides since he just kept betraying and abandoning his tools--I mean "allies." I've got no reason to spare him.)
Heh, who says he feels like he should get a free pass for anything? You're not the center of the universe, not everybody feels the need to grovel at your feet for forgiveness and absolution just because they regret things they've done.
There's a difference between trying to justify actions that aren't justifiable and explaining your rationale when directly asked about them. As I read him he doesn't care in the slightest about what you think of his morals, he's just answering your questions honestly. He did what he thought was necessary every step of the way, including things he was perfectly aware were atrocities, meaning he's long since come to his own terms with his shame. As such your guilt-trips just don't interest him.
He'd probably sell your family into slavery a hundred times over if he thought it would help save Ferelden, feel proportionately more guilty about it, and still not care about your views on it in the grand scheme of things. That's called sticking to your priorities, and while it doesn't make any of his crimes right, it does make him considerably less of a hypocrite than you're trying to paint him as.
That's your prerogative. I find it railroading, illogical and annoying regardless.
I personally think that the only illogical bit is that Alistair stops to gain your character's acquiescence. I also think that that's the only reason this can be considered railroading, because when it comes right down to it Alistair isn't really yours to control. Your Warden is your character, and you can decide your Warden's motivations (or at least you should be able to, since the nod kinda screwed up my headcanon where Diana Mahariel promises to spare Loghain, lets Alistair duel him, and pretends she had no idea what was about to happen.) But Alistair's motivations are not up to you, there's no real argument that they should be, and they're fairly straightforward: he wants Loghain dead. For him to slice Loghain's head off with your automatic permission is railroading. For him to slice Loghain's head off before you've really comprehended what was about to happen would have simply been his character acting the way one would expect.
I personally think that the only illogical bit is that Alistair stops to gain your character's acquiescence. I also think that that's the only reason this can be considered railroading, because when it comes right down to it Alistair isn't really yours to control. Your Warden is your character, and you can decide your Warden's motivations (or at least you should be able to, since the nod kinda screwed up my headcanon where Diana Mahariel promises to spare Loghain, lets Alistair duel him, and pretends she had no idea what was about to happen.) But Alistair's motivations are not up to you, there's no real argument that they should be, and they're fairly straightforward: he wants Loghain dead. For him to slice Loghain's head off with your automatic permission is railroading. For him to slice Loghain's head off before you've really comprehended what was about to happen would have simply been his character acting the way one would expect.
That's the least illogical thing to me. Sure Alistair is angry, but he's also an insecure little boy in a man's body. Him needing an attaboy before going through with an execution makes perfect sense. My character giving that attaboy instead of, say, stepping forward to take the initiative or grabbing Alistair or even just shaking his/her head with a firm "No! Bad Alistair!" doesn't. I obviously don't control Alistair's motives, no, but my character can sure as hell prevent him from killing someone. S/he doesn't, though. S/he gives the thumbs-up instead. Even if it's completely out of character, and the game respects your potential capacity for sparing Loghain in every other version of the duel's aftermath without Alistair as the champion.
I don't get how "if your character had been confused and disoriented instead of paying attention, the same would've happened anyway" is an argument against this being railroading. If your point is that the railroading is academic because the PC can't control Alistair anyway then you'll have to watch the scene again. He loudly threatens a surrendering Loghain from a distance of maybe two and a half meters, looks uncertainly at you standing right beside him less than a foot away, and then starts walking towards Loghain. Putting your hand on his shoulder or just speaking up would instantly have turned it into a discussion, and grappling or tackling him if necessary would have been easy. There's absolutely no doubt that the Warden could have stopped Alistair.
Alistair has been very clear since day one what his intentions toward Loghain were, and if there was any doubt he made it clear at the Landsmeet. You have the option to spare Loghain's life in the discussion about making him a Warden, and if you don't take that option you can't be that surprised at how it turns out.
That said, I didn't like Bioware making me an accessory to Alistair's crime by having me give Alistair that nod.
Not one you will answer, I see.Your other question was about what the party/Wardens gained in recruiting Loghain over Alistair. That's a different matter entirely.
Heh, who says he feels like he should get a free pass for anything? You're not the center of the universe, not everybody feels the need to grovel at your feet for forgiveness and absolution just because they regret things they've done.
There's a difference between trying to justify actions that aren't justifiable and explaining your rationale when directly asked about them. As I read him he doesn't care in the slightest about what you think of his morals, he's just answering your questions honestly. He did what he thought was necessary every step of the way, including things he was perfectly aware were atrocities, meaning he's long since come to his own terms with his shame. As such your guilt-trips just don't interest him.
He'd probably sell your family into slavery a hundred times over if he thought it would help save Ferelden, feel proportionately more guilty about it, and still not care about your views on it in the grand scheme of things. That's called sticking to your priorities, and while it doesn't make any of his crimes right, it does make him considerably less of a hypocrite than you're trying to paint him as.
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