3201 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

Die. He's done too much wrong to let live... 

[ThomasBlaine]

Not one you will answer, I see.

 

I did answer it. Post #3038

 

Acknowledging a mistake doesn't need to be about whether Loghain owes the Warden something or not.

If Loghain believed he shouldn't have done it, that would be part of his answer. And it wouldn't involve the tears and drama you think Nature Guy had in mind.

I also don't believe he is such a whatever it takes man. As I mentioned before, the freedom of his precious human Fereldans would never be quite as negotiable as the elves'.

 

He does acknowledge his mistakes, he just doesn't let you badger and beat him over the head with them because they're none of your business and there's no point fighting over them.

[Natureguy85]

I did answer it. Post #3038

 

 

He does acknowledge his mistakes, he just doesn't let you badger and beat him over the head with them because they're none of your business and there's no point fighting over them.

 

It's been a long time since I've played, but I don't recall him acknowledging any mistakes. He justifies everything. At most he admits that the things he did were necessary evils.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's the least illogical thing to me. Sure Alistair is angry, but he's also an insecure little boy in a man's body. Him needing an attaboy before going through with an execution makes perfect sense. My character giving that attaboy instead of, say, stepping forward to take the initiative or grabbing Alistair or even just shaking his/her head with a firm "No! Bad Alistair!" doesn't. I obviously don't control Alistair's motives, no, but my character can sure as hell prevent him from killing someone. S/he doesn't, though. S/he gives the thumbs-up instead. Even if it's completely out of character, and the game respects your potential capacity for sparing Loghain in every other version of the duel's aftermath without Alistair as the champion.

Alistair doesn't really need an attaboy to kill someone in the thick of combat, does he? And most of the people Alistair gets that combat high off of aren't people he personally despises. Given his hatred for Loghain and the fact that Alistair's body and brain would logically still be acting like he is in the heat of combat it's really incredible that Alistair even stops long enough to deliver a pre-mortem-one-liner before he kills Loghain, much less that he gives you enough time to draw close, let him draw a sword, and then give him the go-ahead instead of just killing Loghain the second Loghain stops trying to not die.

 

 

I don't get how "if your character had been confused and disoriented instead of paying attention, the same would've happened anyway" is an argument against this being railroading. If your point is that the railroading is academic because the PC can't control Alistair anyway then you'll have to watch the scene again. He loudly threatens a surrendering Loghain from a distance of maybe two and a half meters, looks uncertainly at you standing right beside him less than a foot away, and then starts walking towards Loghain. Putting your hand on his shoulder or just speaking up would instantly have turned it into a discussion, and grappling or tackling him if necessary would have been easy. There's absolutely no doubt that the Warden could have stopped Alistair.

Oh no, it's still railroading because the game is limiting your control of your character in ways that don't really make logical sense. You could credibly have done something to stop Alistair the way the scene plays out. But what I'm saying is that if that scene played out the way you would logically expect, your character could logically have been unable to stop Alistair. During the duel, Alistair is a good distance away, probably specifically to make it harder for anyone to interfere. The Warden only closes in to about two meters away from Alistair after the fighting stops, and that would logically have taken time that given Alistair's motivations he'd be more likely to use killing Loghain. And over the distance that separates Alistair and the rest of the party when the duel ends, the only thing a nonmage could expect to be able to do about it if Alistair decides that Loghain needs to die right then would be to yell "stop" and hope Alistair's paying attention instead of running on a combination of bestial instincts, combat training, and flat out rage. And even if Alistair does hear you, there's no guarantee he'll listen. He wants Loghain dead badly enough to desert if you don't grant him this request, and if you're playing rogue or warrior he knows you can't stop him over that distance. A mage could do more than demand Alistair stop, maybe, though given that this is Alistair we're talking about he could credibly kill Loghain anyway. (And then you'd better install Feastday Gifts if you haven't already.)

 

And that entire wall of text above this line assumes the Warden is alert enough to do anything about this, which given how quickly Alistair could have killed Loghain after Loghain stopped defending himself is not a foregone conclusion.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, it's a scene construction problem more than anything else, I think.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's been a long time since I've played, but I don't recall him acknowledging any mistakes. He justifies everything. At most he admits that the things he did were necessary evils.

He finally admits to having made some serious mistakes when it comes time to decide whether or not he's going to do the DR, and in fact he wants to die to atone for them. Though he doesn't specifically state which of his actions he thought earned death and which didn't.

[ThomasBlaine]

Alistair doesn't really need an attaboy to kill someone in the thick of combat, does he? And most of the people Alistair gets that combat high off of aren't people he personally despises. Given his hatred for Loghain and the fact that Alistair's body and brain would logically still be acting like he is in the heat of combat it's really incredible that Alistair even stops long enough to deliver a pre-mortem-one-liner before he kills Loghain, much less that he gives you enough time to draw close, let him draw a sword, and then give him the go-ahead instead of just killing Loghain the second Loghain stops trying to not die.

 

Uhm. But it's not in the thick of combat. The reason the Warden draws close is because the duel is over, and now they're making the decision of what to do with Loghain. You think the scene should have been Alistair going straight for Loghain's throat? Great, but that doesn't mean anything for the actual game. In the game the duel ends, both opponents orient themselves, Alistair goes "This is for Duncan.", looks at your character for approval, and you inexplicably give it instead of stopping him in any of a dozen simple ways. It's definitely not an accident, someone spent hours animating the exact tilt of the Warden's head to suggest "Yeah, go for it buddy, I'm right there with you." That makes it a feature, not a bug, and I for one find it ridiculous.

 

It seems like you think people go into some kind of fighting-mode in times of danger. Nothing could be further from the truth. Adrenaline rushes only actually last a few moments, interfering with your judgement and motor control, both of which are crucial to fighting effectively, and leaving your body exhausted and your muscles leaden almost immediately after it manifests. As in, in the middle of a fight. Martial training all around the world tries to condition you to fight competently in spite of adrenaline, not because of it.

 

Moreover, adrenaline rushes mostly manifest for inexperienced combatants as a knee-jerk reaction to danger, and Alistair and Loghain are both career warriors. Not only should they not be in the throes of "bestial instincts" during the fight, Loghain should be ice-cold and Alistair should be actively and habitually keeping his temper in check and his head clear. This is evidenced by neither of them being cavemen.

 

And clearly you have more respect for Alistair's initiative and willingness to ignore his own morals than I do. It's not like he's been constantly second-guessing both you and himself since the start of the game. Sure, why would he look for approval before killing someone politically important who isn't defending himself anymore and just complimented him on his martial ability in front of the entire government? Oh wait, he does. You know, in the game.

[Natureguy85]

Uhm. But it's not in the thick of combat. The reason the Warden draws close is because the duel is over, and now they're making the decision of what to do with Loghain. You think the scene should have been Alistair going straight for Loghain's throat? Great, but that doesn't mean anything for the actual game. In the game the duel ends, both opponents orient themselves, Alistair goes "This is for Duncan.", looks at your character for approval, and you inexplicably give it instead of stopping him in any of a dozen simple ways. It's definitely not an accident, someone spent hours animating the exact tilt of the Warden's head to suggest "Yeah, go for it buddy, I'm right there with you." That makes it a feature, not a bug, and I for one find it ridiculous.

 

It seems like you think people go into some kind of fighting-mode in times of danger. Nothing could be further from the truth. Adrenaline rushes only actually last a few moments, interfering with your judgement and motor control, both of which are crucial to fighting effectively, and leaving your body exhausted and your muscles leaden almost immediately after it manifests. As in, in the middle of a fight. Martial training all around the world tries to condition you to fight competently in spite of adrenaline, not because of it.

 

Moreover, adrenaline rushes mostly manifest for inexperienced combatants as a knee-jerk reaction to danger, and Alistair and Loghain are both career warriors. Not only should they not be in the throes of "bestial instincts" during the fight, Loghain should be ice-cold and Alistair should be actively and habitually keeping his temper in check and his head clear. This is evidenced by neither of them being cavemen.

 

And clearly you have more respect for Alistair's initiative and willingness to ignore his own morals than I do. It's not like he's been constantly second-guessing both you and himself since the start of the game. Sure, why would he look for approval before killing someone politically important who isn't defending himself anymore and just complimented him on his martial ability in front of the entire government? Oh wait, he does. You know, in the game.

 

Nobody said it was a bug, we said it was a mistake. Yes, they intended it but that pause is where they went wrong in constructing the scene.

 

The middle two paragraphs are largely irrelevant. They don't have to get that detailed to the real world. As you say, the martial training is to still fight despite the problems that come with adrenaline dumps, but you usually can't simply overcome them. Instead you have to learn how to still fight with them. I don't know what that has to do with this.

As for Alistair's character, sure he's largely unsure of himself, but that doesn't make it out of character for him to be sure of this one thing and acting purely on emotion in the moment. As I said, the mistake was the pause. Alistair should have killed him right after saying "This is for Duncan," and been quick about it.

[ThomasBlaine]

Nobody said it was a bug, we said it was a mistake. Yes, they intended it but that pause is where they went wrong in constructing the scene.

 

The middle two paragraphs are largely irrelevant. They don't have to get that detailed to the real world. As you say, the martial training is to still fight despite the problems that come with adrenaline dumps, but you usually can't simply overcome them. Instead you have to learn how to still fight with them. I don't know what that has to do with this.

As for Alistair's character, sure he's largely unsure of himself, but that doesn't make it out of character for him to be sure of this one thing and acting purely on emotion in the moment. As I said, the mistake was the pause. Alistair should have killed him right after saying "This is for Duncan," and been quick about it.

 

If the point is that Alistair kills or should kill Loghain because of a rush then yes, it matters, because that isn't remotely evident in the game. It's your own invention. And if your idea of how things should have gone doesn't fit with either the game or reality then there's not much of an argument, is there? Adrenaline doesn't work in such a way that Alistair would have been on some kind of combat high after the battle. I don't see how the developers made a "mistake" because the scene doesn't conform to unrealistic ideas of human biochemistry.

 

I'm not saying it's entirely out of character for Alistair to have killed Loghain on the spot, although that's obviously not what happens, I'm saying it isn't out of character for him to want permission first as you seem to think.

[Qun00]

I did answer it. Post #3038
 

 
He does acknowledge his mistakes, he just doesn't let you badger and beat him over the head with them because they're none of your business and there's no point fighting over them.

That is fair enough when the question comes from a total stranger. I like it when Loghain tells the Inquisitor "Once your mistakes become public, everyone feels entitled to a personal apology".

But the Warden is no stranger. Loghain framed you as traitors to the king. He sent a few soldiers and even an assassin after you. So yes, it definitely is your business.

[ThomasBlaine]

That is fair enough when the question comes from a total stranger. I like it when Loghain tells the Inquisitor "Once your mistakes become public, everyone feels entitled to a personal apology".

But the Warden is no stranger. Loghain framed you as traitors to the king. He sent a few soldiers and even an assassin after you. So yes, it definitely is your business.

 

He framed the Wardens as an order, thinking none of them were left in the country, and sent assassins after the ones he found out were still alive. Both necessary evils in his mind, and neither personal. So yes, you're strangers. And he'd do both again given the same circumstances and information. I can definitely see why he wouldn't care to discuss that at length, and what would be the point?

 

I love that part of his writing, he's neither talkative nor sentimental nor feels that he knows you particularly well. And he's man enough to deal with his own guilt without letting it keep him from trying to make the best of a bad situation or feeling the need to justify himself to strangers afterwards.

[Aren]

Not one you will answer, I see.

 

I think the point of recruiting Loghain in both Riordan and the Warden's mind is having an extra warden +1 that Alistair leaves and gave you no numerical advantage for the decision is something unpredictable.

Gain Loghain over Alistair is  a morale boost for the troops that's why a warden may choose a former war hero over an unknown person for the nation,since basically you earn a former general and his knowledge at your disposal.

[Aren]

He finally admits to having made some serious mistakes when it comes time to decide whether or not he's going to do the DR, and in fact he wants to die to atone for them. Though he doesn't specifically state which of his actions he thought earned death and which didn't.

The ways of the Maker are endless he wish to atone and he was provided with the perfect chance to do it.

[Qun00]

He framed the Wardens as an order, thinking none of them were left in the country, and sent assassins after the ones he found out were still alive. Both necessary evils in his mind, and neither personal. So yes, you're strangers. And he'd do both again given the same circumstances and information. I can definitely see why he wouldn't care to discuss that at length, and what would be the point?
 
I love that part of his writing, he's neither talkative nor sentimental nor feels that he knows you particularly well. And he's man enough to deal with his own guilt without letting it keep him from trying to make the best of a bad situation or feeling the need to justify himself to strangers afterwards.

I'd like to see how that holds up in court: "I'm sorry, but you have no right to sue this man. There were no personal feelings involved when he opened a hole in your wall".

[ThomasBlaine]

I'd like to see how that holds up in court: "I'm sorry, but you have no right to sue this man. There were no personal feelings involved when he opened a hole in your wall".

 

So? Nobody is saying he didn't do some awful stuff. Doesn't mean you get to interrogate and rub his nose in it just because you want to. Although the idea of you ranting and raving pointlessly at him while his respect for your resolve just goes down is quite hilarious. The remark about everyone feeling entitled to a personal apology is pretty apt.

 

He's a self-contained old warrior who acted on bad information and took extreme measures. Unfortunate mistakes were made. Suck it up, use his talents, get to work. Appreciate the greased wheels at inns, taverns, villages and shops across Ferelden and be glad that you don't have to hold Alistair's hand anymore.

[Qun00]

So? Nobody is saying he didn't do some awful stuff. Doesn't mean you get to interrogate and rub his nose in it just because you want to. Although the idea of you ranting and raving pointlessly at him while his respect for your resolve just goes down is quite hilarious. The remark about everyone feeling entitled to a personal apology is pretty apt.

He's a self-contained old warrior who acted on bad information and took extreme measures. Unfortunate mistakes were made. Suck it up, use his talents, get to work. Appreciate the greased wheels at inns, taverns, villages and shops across Ferelden and be glad that you don't have to hold Alistair's hand anymore.

Oh, I never said there should be endless yelling.

But even Loghain thinks the issue isn't something to be dismissed entirely and suggests on his own initiative that "We must settle things between us somehow or neither of us will get anything done".

http://youtu.be/qiudDPK6CTE

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Uhm. But it's not in the thick of combat. The reason the Warden draws close is because the duel is over, and now they're making the decision of what to do with Loghain. You think the scene should have been Alistair going straight for Loghain's throat? Great, but that doesn't mean anything for the actual game. In the game the duel ends, both opponents orient themselves, Alistair goes "This is for Duncan.", looks at your character for approval, and you inexplicably give it instead of stopping him in any of a dozen simple ways. It's definitely not an accident, someone spent hours animating the exact tilt of the Warden's head to suggest "Yeah, go for it buddy, I'm right there with you." That makes it a feature, not a bug, and I for one find it ridiculous.

Most of this was answered by the second block of text, I think.

 

I'm not denying that the way the scene is shown in the actual game counts as railroading, because it is the game taking more control of your character in ways that aren't actually justified. But what I'm trying to say is that the problem with the game as it's actually programmed isn't so much that Loghain automatically dies if Alistair's the champion, as the fact that the scene isn't Alistair just going straight for Loghain's throat.

 

As for the nod of the head, I think that's because they only programmed one execution scene for Loghain, rather than making a separate one for when Alistair's killing Loghain of his own initiative since he's right there. So for all we know Bioware might have intended to get across the impression I got before watching the scene (which is that Alistair just kills Loghain without thinking about or really caring what anyone else wants him to do) rather than the Warden automatically giving permission. Only they didn't put enough effort into it if that was their intended takeaway.

 

It seems like you think people go into some kind of fighting-mode in times of danger. Nothing could be further from the truth. Adrenaline rushes only actually last a few moments, interfering with your judgement and motor control, both of which are crucial to fighting effectively, and leaving your body exhausted and your muscles leaden almost immediately after it manifests. As in, in the middle of a fight. Martial training all around the world tries to condition you to fight competently in spite of adrenaline, not because of it.

 

Moreover, adrenaline rushes mostly manifest for inexperienced combatants as a knee-jerk reaction to danger, and Alistair and Loghain are both career warriors. Not only should they not be in the throes of "bestial instincts" during the fight, Loghain should be ice-cold and Alistair should be actively and habitually keeping his temper in check and his head clear. This is evidenced by neither of them being cavemen.

Fine. Then we fall back on my other argument: namely, that an Alistair whose mental state in life-or-death combat is entirely the same as his mental state out of it (which I suppose would explain the mostly casual tone he takes in combat banter) would still kill Loghain, because Alistair wants Loghain dead even when Alistair's mostly calm. (I say mostly because Alistair does seem to heat up a little when speaking of Loghain.) Most of Alistair's character is deference to the Warden, and the rest of it is his desire to see Loghain dead. He feels strongly enough about it to desert if he doesn't get his wish. Alistair being right in front of a surrendering Loghain shouldn't end with Alistair asking anyone's permission to do anything. And if he does look and doesn't get permission, I'm not sure that would stop him.

 

And clearly you have more respect for Alistair's initiative and willingness to ignore his own morals than I do. It's not like he's been constantly second-guessing both you and himself since the start of the game. Sure, why would he look for approval before killing someone politically important who isn't defending himself anymore and just complimented him on his martial ability in front of the entire government? Oh wait, he does. You know, in the game.

He deserts the Wardens over Loghain leaving the Landsmeet chamber alive. That's arguably a greater breach of his morals than killing one guy who he believes (arguably with reason) has provided Alistair with plenty of reason to do so. So, yeah, I'd say killing Loghain has a higher place on his list of priorities than the Warden's approval, notwithstanding that said approval apparently does have a higher place than Alistair's own morality.

[ThomasBlaine]

Most of this was answered by the second block of text, I think.

 

I'm not denying that the way the scene is shown in the actual game counts as railroading, because it is the game taking more control of your character in ways that aren't actually justified. But what I'm trying to say is that the problem with the game as it's actually programmed isn't so much that Loghain automatically dies if Alistair's the champion, as the fact that the scene isn't Alistair just going straight for Loghain's throat.

 

As for the nod of the head, I think that's because they only programmed one execution scene for Loghain, rather than making a separate one for when Alistair's killing Loghain of his own initiative since he's right there. So for all we know Bioware might have intended to get across the impression I got before watching the scene (which is that Alistair just kills Loghain without thinking about or really caring what anyone else wants him to do) rather than the Warden automatically giving permission. Only they didn't put enough effort into it if that was their intended takeaway.

 

I don't agree, but fair enough.

 

Fine. Then we fall back on my other argument: namely, that an Alistair whose mental state in life-or-death combat is entirely the same as his mental state out of it (which I suppose would explain the mostly casual tone he takes in combat banter) would still kill Loghain, because Alistair wants Loghain dead even when Alistair's mostly calm. (I say mostly because Alistair does seem to heat up a little when speaking of Loghain.) Most of Alistair's character is deference to the Warden, and the rest of it is his desire to see Loghain dead. He feels strongly enough about it to desert if he doesn't get his wish. Alistair being right in front of a surrendering Loghain shouldn't end with Alistair asking anyone's permission to do anything. And if he does look and doesn't get permission, I'm not sure that would stop him.

 

He deserts the Wardens over Loghain leaving the Landsmeet chamber alive. That's arguably a greater breach of his morals than killing one guy who he believes (arguably with reason) has provided Alistair with plenty of reason to do so. So, yeah, I'd say killing Loghain has a higher place on his list of priorities than the Warden's approval, notwithstanding that said approval apparently does have a higher place than Alistair's own morality.

 

He deserts the Wardens over Loghain being made a Warden himself, because the idea of Loghain serving with him is an even bigger breach of his morals than either killing the man or desertion, not over Loghain potentially surviving the Landsmeet. Desertion and murdering Loghain are also two very different kinds of actions, one is stepping away from pain and danger, closing yourself off and removing yourself from the equation, the other is sticking your neck out and potentially ruining the grand plan by shoving a sharp piece of steel into another human being without knowing for sure if that's what you're supposed to do. I don't have to tell you which one comes more naturally to humans regardless of personal ethics.

[Idun]

Depends on the kind of Warden I play. My Brosca let Alistair kill him. My F!Cousland will kill him herself. My Surana will spare him and let him sacrifice himself. I want to see all outcomes. 

 

My Evil Aeducan will probably spare him and make him do the Ritual (and then laugh at his discomfort).

[Xawer]

There are good arguments for and against but for me the best argument for sparing him is because that's the only way to have both the Warden and Alistair survive, without a Ritual.(harden Alistair, marry Anora,etc..)

 

If someone else was available, like Riordan for example, Loghain would be executed because RP wise, i can't imagine a Warden that is that much of a saint.

At the most - Destroying Loghain as a cultural and national hero would be a blow to the Feralden national identity at this point and if the Warden is a human with strong nationalistic mindset which includes disliking Orlais, then he might consider mercy, but even then it's a long shot

[straykat]

There are good arguments for and against but for me the best argument for sparing him is because that's the only way to have both the Warden and Alistair survive, without a Ritual.(harden Alistair, marry Anora,etc..)

 

If someone else was available, like Riordan for example, Loghain would be executed because RP wise, i can't imagine a Warden that is that much of a saint.

At the most - Destroying Loghain as a cultural and national hero would be a blow to the Feralden national identity at this point and if the Warden is a human with strong nationalistic mindset which includes disliking Orlais, then he might consider mercy, but even then it's a long shot

 

I don't think it's so much being a Saint as just seeing the value of redemption. The Warden could be a bastard who feels the need to forgive, as they felt they were forgiven too.

 

It depends on the Warden though. Like maybe an Aeducan would feel this is fair. Or a Dalish who killed those hunters in the intro, but slowly regretted it.

 

And funnily, these were similar to the "prebuilts" that had a Loghain as Warden in DA2. The Martyr and No Compromises. Although I can't be sure why the "Martyr" did it. She actually does sound like a saint. She makes just about every good choice.

[ThomasBlaine]

I don't think it's so much being a Saint as just seeing the value of redemption. The Warden could be a bastard who feels the need to forgive, as they felt they were forgiven too.

 

It depends on the Warden though. Like maybe an Aeducan would feel this is fair. Or a Dalish who killed those hunters in the intro, but slowly regretted it.

 

And funnily, these were similar to the "prebuilts" that had a Loghain as Warden in DA2. The Martyr and No Compromises. Although I can't be sure why the "Martyr" did it. She actually does sound like a saint. She makes just about every good choice.

 

There could also be some pleasure in conscripting Loghain as you were conscripted yourself, stripping him of his titles and forcing him to get his hands dirty under your command, not to mention the other unpleasentries involved with being a Warden. And even if he doesn't want to talk about it, you still get to rub his nose in the Grey Wardens' actual importance to ending the Blight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And even if he doesn't want to talk about it, you still get to rub his nose in the Grey Wardens' actual importance to ending the Blight.

Which I'm sure he'd find irritating as all hell since he should have been told of it before he even met you.

 

Seriously, it's kinda unfair to get on his case for not immediately taking an unproven claim as gospel just because it turns out it was actually true.

[ThomasBlaine]

Which I'm sure he'd find irritating as all hell since he should have been told of it before he even met you.

 

Seriously, it's kinda unfair to get on his case for not immediately taking an unproven claim as gospel just because it turns out it was actually true.

 

I totally agree and that's my own stance as well. Am just pointing out that a gleeful and vindictive Warden would find the idea of humiliating and teasing him with the irony an attractive prospect and a personal reason to recruit him. The Warden doesn't even know the important bits of GW lore by the time of the Landsmeet him/herself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I totally agree and that's my own stance as well. Am just pointing out that a gleeful and vindictive Warden would find the idea of humiliating and teasing him with the irony an attractive prospect and a personal reason to recruit him. The Warden doesn't even know the important bits of GW lore by the time of the Landsmeet him/herself.

Fair enough. Well, for your part anyway.