Which I'm sure he'd find irritating as all hell since he should have been told of it before he even met you.
Seriously, it's kinda unfair to get on his case for not immediately taking an unproven claim as gospel just because it turns out it was actually true.
The fact that only Gray Wardens are recorded by history as successfully killing arch-demons really should be compelling evidence. Not that it mattered because he didn't believe in the arch-demon this time.
The fact that only Gray Wardens are recorded by history as successfully killing arch-demons really should be compelling evidence.
Not really. You have four cases to draw your point from, and the last three were probably after that rumor began. Not to mention that the Wardens have always been the ones with the best chance of reaching the Archdemon thanks to the griffins... which they don't have anymore. Combine that with the fact that "literally only one order has the power to kill an archdemon" is a bit of an extraordinary claim, and you can reasonably more skeptical than that.
Though of course you're right that it doesn't matter, because there was also no smoking gun available to convince Loghain that how you kill an Archdemon mattered.
This thread will never end.
He should live
and then die for the Archdemon so he both live and die
This is why I love this forum. Origins must be over 10 years old and the discussions still go on as if he were released yesterday. 
This is why I love this forum. Origins must be over 10 years old and the discussions still go on as if he were released yesterday.
Off the top of my head I think it's only seven, but the actual point stands.
This is why I love this forum. Origins must be over 10 years old and the discussions still go on as if he were released yesterday.
Way to make us all feel old. 
and then die for the Archdemon so he both live and die
Or keep him alive to enjoy and adore in future games as well, doing the dirty with Morrigan or letting your Warden rest in peace rather than be hijacked by a now Gaider-less writing team. Loghain's appearance in Inquisition is probably my favorite thing about the game.
Depends on my Warden's character, though most of them have some sort of stake in Alistair taking over (become queen/Dalish ally/unhardened puppet), so Loghain often gets killed because there's no other way to do that.
The one exception so far, Aeducan killed Trian only to have the gravity of what he'd done hit him afterwards. Wardenhood for him was an extension of his punishment for kinslaying - fight darkspawn until you die. He saw a lot of parallels between himself and Loghain, so when the option came up he went for it. He had the political acumen to wed Alistair and Anora, fortunately, and when the truth of the Wardens gets revealed, he was glad a good kid like Alistair would be spared and it'd be either him or Loghain atoning for their sins.
Loghain sacrifice vs the Archdemon is better for me since he die in his city and for his people rather than in some unknown dimension.Way to make us all feel old.
Or keep him alive to enjoy and adore in future games as well, doing the dirty with Morrigan or letting your Warden rest in peace rather than be hijacked by a now Gaider-less writing team. Loghain's appearance in Inquisition is probably my favorite thing about the game.
Loghain sacrifice vs the Archdemon is better for me since he die in his city and for his people rather than in some unknown dimension.
As a rule i don't take deals with Morrigan or Flemeth and performing the US to have Loghain in DAI would be a very meh reason in terms of RP.
You mean that even if Loghain miraculously survives your Origins playthrough, you sacrifice him to save Hawke?
Monster. The only time I've ever done that was in my very first Inquisition run when my girlfriend had convinced me to shape a generic Hawke after her, not knowing what lay ahead, and then acted like she would take it personally if I saved Loghain instead.
By the end of this series playthrough my Warden and Hawke are both going to be six feet under where future Bioware developers can't reach them with their dirty, boring cameo plots, and Loghain is going to be alive and well and awesome, and it's going to be a perfect marriage of roleplaying and metagaming. With no outside interference.
Off the top of my head I think it's only seven, but the actual point stands.
You mean that even if Loghain miraculously survives your Origins playthrough, you sacrifice him to save Hawke?
it'd be a hard choice for me to make, choosing between Loghain and Hawke as I like both characters. If I'm wrong with the timeline correct me, but Loghain would have been a Warden for 20 years after Origins and would likely be facing a trip to the Deep Roads soon. The pragmatic choice from that is that Hawke could do more good since he'd have much more time than Loghain, and I say that as a Loghain fan.
Loghain's way too easy between Hawke.. for me at least. If I am going to keep him alive, he's got a Redemptive Path written all over him. If he doesn't die in DAO, then it's obscene if he doesn't die in DAI. lol And even he would agree with me. He knows he screwed up.
Of course, I never play Hawke as an outright villain anyways. Maybe then I could kill them.. like if they were slavers or something like that. Otherwise, Hawke doesn't do anything to deserve it.. and their life already sucks as it is.
That Loghain should be chopped to pieces? Oh yes, absolutely.
How is the age of the game relevant to your irrational hatred of Hero of the River Dane?
You mean that even if Loghain miraculously survives your Origins playthrough, you sacrifice him to save Hawke?
As Mike points out Hawke's probably going to live longer than Loghain would, and the one I sacrificed Loghain for had a girlfriend to go back to.
That Loghain should be chopped to pieces? Oh yes, absolutely.
A MILLION times Yes!. As Loghain never survives DAO his survival in DAI is a moot point with me I'm afraid. The harder decision is if you sacrifice another Warden Stroud for instance.
I figure it's a pattern for some warden to die in all my games now... so Stroud it is.
If I'm wrong with the timeline correct me, but Loghain would have been a Warden for 20 years after Origins and would likely be facing a trip to the Deep Roads soon. The pragmatic choice from that is that Hawke could do more good since he'd have much more time than Loghain, and I say that as a Loghain fan.
Loghain has been a Warden for about 12 years by Inquisition. He has a good 45-50 years of battle and command experience, fights exactly as well as a much younger warrior in Hawke, is a famous tactician and has connections, knowledge and authority within the Grey Wardens and some pull among Ferelden royalty if Anora is queen.
Hawke is a nobody who had a few years of fame for killing the Arishok and who has only a few disconnected friends, of whom Loghain and Varric are the only ones relevant to the Inquisition's struggle, not even associated with the mages or templars anymore whom you've already dealt with at that point. At least, that's if s/he supports the mage rebellion in DAII. Might have more to offer as Viscount.
In my playthrough the pragmatic option has clearly been to save Loghain over Hawke and try to utilize his talents and connections for as long as he lasts, even if only for the Corypheus crisis.
I didn't said that.I think is well know by now that Loghain is one of those characters with whom i don't have any problem with and i never liked Alistair nor i like to kill people that could have been saved,but save Loghain to have him in DAI would be a form of ultra metagaming for the warden.In DAI he is better than the warden because he exist while the warden is just a bunch of letters but i think that is better to make him die for Ferelden and not for Orlais.
"It is better to make him die for Ferelden than Orlais" is metagaming. Deciding that you want Loghain to survive this playthough or that is indeed metagaming. The trick is to come up with an honest-to-god roleplay that you find cool and interesting and which facilitates the story you want to play without breaking character. For me, my depressed Dalish Warden without a future worth looking forward to and my ruthless Inquisitor who would take Loghain's usefulness over Varric's sentimental attachment to Hawke, and certainly Hawke's rumored status as a potential rival for the Inquisitor's own position, any day are what is going to save Loghain this time around. That's not metagaming.
I don't think anyone plays Origins with the idea of Loghain in the sequels as one of the Warden's own motivations. That would be ridiculous.
Loghain's way too easy between Hawke.. for me at least. If I am going to keep him alive, he's got a Redemptive Path written all over him. If he doesn't die in DAO, then it's obscene if he doesn't die in DAI. lol And even he would agree with me. He knows he screwed up.
Of course, I never play Hawke as an outright villain anyways. Maybe then I could kill them.. like if they were slavers or something like that. Otherwise, Hawke doesn't do anything to deserve it.. and their life already sucks as it is.
He can redeem himself when I'm done with him if it means so much. I don't give a used fig for how his story could end with a little extra symmetry. He's strong, intelligent and resourceful, that makes him useful and worth keeping around which is more important than his personal glory or Hawke "not deserving" to die. If Loghain was the last person in Thedas to bite it, fighting and kicking and screaming, then I'd be fine with that and feel better that at least they did all they could with the best they had.
He can redeem himself when I'm done with him if it means so much. I don't give a used fig for how his story could end with a little extra symmetry. He's strong, intelligent and resourceful, that makes him useful and worth keeping around which is more important than his personal glory or Hawke "not deserving" to die. If Loghain was the last person in Thedas to bite it, fighting and kicking and screaming, then I'd be fine with that and feel better that at least they did all they could with the best they had.
Well, at least you understand what I'm saying. Symmetry is kind of a good word.
But deserve has everything to do with Hawke for me. That character is partly mine/partly yours. I don't see how you could be so preferential to Loghain, when you can make Hawke as cool as him... and without the baggage. However intelligent, resourceful, and strong you think he is, Hawke can be that too. The only reason they wouldn't be is if you purposely made it so.
Well, at least you understand what I'm saying. Symmetry is kind of a good word.
But deserve has everything to do with Hawke for me. That character is partly mine/partly yours. I don't see how you could be so preferential to Loghain, when you can make Hawke as cool as him... and without the baggage. However intelligent, resourceful, and strong you think he is, Hawke can be that too. The only reason they wouldn't be is if you purposely made it so.
Heresy, and also simply untrue. I've never managed to make a Hawke half as cool or resourceful as Loghain after years of trying. Just because you can change his/her face and decide his/her superficial attitude doesn't automatically make him/her awesome. Hawke is incredibly passive and unimaginative throughout DAII, makes some truly irrational decisions that the player has no control over, and doesn't have anything to outweigh Loghain's sheer character and history and personal strength due to the nature of DAII dialogue.
The only way Hawke compares to Loghain in Inquisition is if the player is irrationally attached to and inflates the importance of old PCs and lets that influence their roleplaying of the new protagonist, which is fair enough but not a problem I have myself. That, or the Inquisitor is really keen on being friendly with the Viscount of Kirkwall for some reason, assuming that Hawke still is so by Inquisition if s/he went that route.
Heresy, and also simply untrue. I've never managed to make a Hawke half as cool or resourceful as Loghain after years of trying. Just because you can change his/her face and decide his/her superficial attitude doesn't automatically make him/her awesome. Hawke is incredibly passive and unimaginative throughout DAII, makes some truly irrational decisions that the player has no control over, and doesn't have anything to outweigh Loghain's sheer character and history and personal strength due to the nature of DAII dialogue.
The only way Hawke compares to Loghain in Inquisition is if the player is irrationally attached to and inflates the importance of old PCs and lets that influence their roleplaying of the new protagonist, which is fair enough but not a problem I have myself. That, or the Inquisitor is really keen on being friendly with the Viscount of Kirkwall for some reason, assuming that Hawke still is so by Inquisition if s/he went that route.
It has nothing to do with the face. The game has choices. If you can't admit that, you're just being facetious.
As for comparisons, they're both Ferelden commoners. Hawke's story is just an immigrant story, rather than homeland patriot. It isn't going to be exact. I'm just talking about mentality. If you can't roleplay an intelligent or strong character, that's your own fault. You have the freedom to do so. The world just doesn't revolve around Hawke, no matter how awesome. That doesn't mean that depletes who they are, as people.
It has nothing to do with the face. The game has choices. If you can't admit that, you're just being facetious.
As for comparisons, they're both Ferelden commoners. Hawke's story is just an immigrant story, rather than homeland patriot. It isn't going to be exact. I'm just talking about mentality. If you can't roleplay an intelligent or strong character, that's your own fault. You have the freedom to do so. The world just doesn't revolve around Hawke, no matter how awesome. That doesn't mean that depletes who they are, as people.
I'm not talking about game choices, I'm talking about Hawke's nonoptional actions and behaviour. Letting their family be dragged to and running around the most dangerous and dysfunctional city in Thedas on suicidal errands to scrape together a small fortune in order to go on another even more suicidal quest in the vague hope of earning a larger fortune all in order to bribe officals just because Hawke's mother isn't satisfied with living in a normal house anymore.
The whole theme of the game is to "take flight", but all Hawke does is allow other people to pressure him/her into incredibly stupid decisions. At least Loghain acts decisively and somewhat rationally given the information he has and doesn't second-guess himself. If Hawke had a shred of his initiative and resolve they would have muscled their way into position as Viscount at the end of the game's second act, poisoned Meredith to keep her out of the running a la Eamon and tried to get Kirkwall under control instead of doing the heroic equivalent of menial chores for five years and waiting for the system to collapse under the pressure of all the insanity going on.
And if they'd been sane then they would have just gone back home to Ferelden after the Blight or at least spent the money they earned on soap and furniture like a normal human being and gotten that Lowtown house in proper order instead of repeatedly going out to risk their life for their mother's desire to get back to her roots, getting their entire family killed, caught by authorities and/or pressed into military service in the process.
And then there is their weird, extreme and completely unpredictable statements, which are as canon as anything else.
I have a Hawke in mind at the moment that I think I'm going to enjoy playing, but pretending her to be of Loghain's calibre as a character is futile and will only lead to disappointment. And my eventual Inquisitor won't be one to waste his useful allies.
How is the age of the game relevant to your irrational hatred of Hero of the River Dane?
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