3206 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

 

He can redeem himself when I'm done with him if it means so much. I don't give a used fig for how his story could end with a little extra symmetry. He's strong, intelligent and resourceful, that makes him useful and worth keeping around which is more important than his personal glory or Hawke "not deserving" to die. If Loghain was the last person in Thedas to bite it, fighting and kicking and screaming, then I'd be fine with that and feel better that at least they did all they could with the best they had.

 

Well, at least you understand what I'm saying. Symmetry is kind of a good word.

 

But deserve has everything to do with Hawke for me. That character is partly mine/partly yours. I don't see how you could be so preferential to Loghain, when you can make Hawke as cool as him... and without the baggage. However intelligent, resourceful, and strong you think he is, Hawke can be that too. The only reason they wouldn't be is if you purposely made it so.

[ThomasBlaine]

Well, at least you understand what I'm saying. Symmetry is kind of a good word.

 

But deserve has everything to do with Hawke for me. That character is partly mine/partly yours. I don't see how you could be so preferential to Loghain, when you can make Hawke as cool as him... and without the baggage. However intelligent, resourceful, and strong you think he is, Hawke can be that too. The only reason they wouldn't be is if you purposely made it so.

 

Heresy, and also simply untrue. I've never managed to make a Hawke half as cool or resourceful as Loghain after years of trying. Just because you can change his/her face and decide his/her superficial attitude doesn't automatically make him/her awesome. Hawke is incredibly passive and unimaginative throughout DAII, makes some truly irrational decisions that the player has no control over, and doesn't have anything to outweigh Loghain's sheer character and history and personal strength due to the nature of DAII dialogue.

 

The only way Hawke compares to Loghain in Inquisition is if the player is irrationally attached to and inflates the importance of old PCs and lets that influence their roleplaying of the new protagonist, which is fair enough but not a problem I have myself. That, or the Inquisitor is really keen on being friendly with the Viscount of Kirkwall for some reason, assuming that Hawke still is so by Inquisition if s/he went that route.

[straykat]

Heresy, and also simply untrue. I've never managed to make a Hawke half as cool or resourceful as Loghain after years of trying. Just because you can change his/her face and decide his/her superficial attitude doesn't automatically make him/her awesome. Hawke is incredibly passive and unimaginative throughout DAII, makes some truly irrational decisions that the player has no control over, and doesn't have anything to outweigh Loghain's sheer character and history and personal strength due to the nature of DAII dialogue.

 

The only way Hawke compares to Loghain in Inquisition is if the player is irrationally attached to and inflates the importance of old PCs and lets that influence their roleplaying of the new protagonist, which is fair enough but not a problem I have myself. That, or the Inquisitor is really keen on being friendly with the Viscount of Kirkwall for some reason, assuming that Hawke still is so by Inquisition if s/he went that route.

 

It has nothing to do with the face. The game has choices. If you can't admit that, you're just being facetious.

 

As for comparisons, they're both Ferelden commoners. Hawke's story is just an immigrant story, rather than homeland patriot. It isn't going to be exact. I'm just talking about mentality. If you can't roleplay an intelligent or strong character, that's your own fault. You have the freedom to do so. The world just doesn't revolve around Hawke, no matter how awesome. That doesn't mean that depletes who they are, as people.

[ThomasBlaine]

It has nothing to do with the face. The game has choices. If you can't admit that, you're just being facetious.

 

As for comparisons, they're both Ferelden commoners. Hawke's story is just an immigrant story, rather than homeland patriot. It isn't going to be exact. I'm just talking about mentality. If you can't roleplay an intelligent or strong character, that's your own fault. You have the freedom to do so. The world just doesn't revolve around Hawke, no matter how awesome. That doesn't mean that depletes who they are, as people.

 

I'm not talking about game choices, I'm talking about Hawke's nonoptional actions and behaviour. Letting their family be dragged to and running around the most dangerous and dysfunctional city in Thedas on suicidal errands to scrape together a small fortune in order to go on another even more suicidal quest in the vague hope of earning a larger fortune all in order to bribe officals just because Hawke's mother isn't satisfied with living in a normal house anymore.

 

The whole theme of the game is to "take flight", but all Hawke does is allow other people to pressure him/her into incredibly stupid decisions. At least Loghain acts decisively and somewhat rationally given the information he has and doesn't second-guess himself. If Hawke had a shred of his initiative and resolve they would have muscled their way into position as Viscount at the end of the game's second act, poisoned Meredith to keep her out of the running a la Eamon and tried to get Kirkwall under control instead of doing the heroic equivalent of menial chores for five years and waiting for the system to collapse under the pressure of all the insanity going on.

 

And if they'd been sane then they would have just gone back home to Ferelden after the Blight or at least spent the money they earned on soap and furniture like a normal human being and gotten that Lowtown house in proper order instead of repeatedly going out to risk their life for their mother's desire to get back to her roots, getting their entire family killed, caught by authorities and/or pressed into military service in the process.

 

And then there is their weird, extreme and completely unpredictable statements, which are as canon as anything else.

 

I have a Hawke in mind at the moment that I think I'm going to enjoy playing, but pretending her to be of Loghain's calibre as a character is futile and will only lead to disappointment. And my eventual Inquisitor won't be one to waste his useful allies.

[Qun00]

How is the age of the game relevant to your irrational hatred of Hero of the River Dane?

I was just joking.

Now, if Loghain was spared in DAO it's better to go all the way and let him live in DAI too.

Going to the deep roads to die and experience what Grey Wardens have to go through is a fitting end for someone that once mocked them.

[ThomasBlaine]

I was just joking.

Now, if Loghain was spared in DAO it's better to go all the way and let him live in DAI too.

Going to the deep roads to die and experience what Grey Wardens have to go through is a fitting end for someone that once mocked them.

 

Or living just long enough to benefit from the potential cure to the Calling, dying of old age in the royal palace of Denerim while surrounded by his grandchildren, an openly celebrated hero of his country once more.

 

I really don't get the fascination with giving him an ironic, grim and poetic death. Especially not when he's been crucial to saving first Ferelden and then the entire world. Learn to let it go?

[Mike3207]

Loghain's been looking to do the noble sacrifice as a Warden for years now. If you don't let him kill the Archdemon, he's going to want to be the one to want to sacrifice himself in the Fade. If you gave him the choice, that'd be the option he picked.

 

Must have been thinking of Alistair's comment-20 years give or take. I remember at one point Gaider said that applied for a Warden not in a time of Blight. Fighting darkspawn the whole time Blight and after likely shorted Loghain's time left. I wouldn't be surprised if he only had 1-3 years left.

[ThomasBlaine]

Loghain's been looking to do the noble sacrifice as a Warden for years now. If you don't let him kill the Archdemon, he's going to want to be the one to want to sacrifice himself in the Fade. If you gave him the choice, that'd be the option he picked.

 

Must have been thinking of Alistair's comment-20 years give or take. I remember at one point Gaider said that applied for a Warden not in a time of Blight. Fighting darkspawn the whole time Blight and after likely shorted Loghain's time left. I wouldn't be surprised if he only had 1-3 years left.

 

Alistair says 30 years, not 20. What exactly did Gaider say about it? It's not a bad idea, but there's literally nothing to suggest the Wardens' lives being shortened by the Blight in the game.

[Mike3207]

Alistair says 30 years, not 20. What exactly did Gaider say about it? It's not a bad idea, but there's literally nothing to suggest the Wardens' lives being shortened by the Blight in the game.

Pretty sure it was 20, but given my track record on timeline-won't push it. I couldn't find the dialogue on youtube or wikia.

 

However long it is, Gaider mentioned he wished he hadn't put that dialogue in when Alistair tells you how long it is. That was meant for a Warden under almost perfect conditions, and a Warden in time of Blight is far from ideal conditions. If I remember correctly, he thought the Warden's time could be as few as 10 years during active time of Blight. Loghain's passed that point, so if he doesn't choose the Fade he can expect the Calling at any time.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Pretty sure it was 20, but given my track record on timeline-won't push it. I couldn't find the dialogue on youtube or wikia.

Alistair's estimate was thirty. Though yes, as far as I remember you're right about Gaider thinking that should be "max" rather than "give or take."

 

(For whatever that's still worth now that he's not writing for them anymore.)

[Natureguy85]

Heresy, and also simply untrue. I've never managed to make a Hawke half as cool or resourceful as Loghain after years of trying. Just because you can change his/her face and decide his/her superficial attitude doesn't automatically make him/her awesome. Hawke is incredibly passive and unimaginative throughout DAII, makes some truly irrational decisions that the player has no control over, and doesn't have anything to outweigh Loghain's sheer character and history and personal strength due to the nature of DAII dialogue.

 

Hawke being so passive, merely buffeted around by events, is why he doesn't work well as a video game protagonist. The only time he's taking charge of his own life is in Act 1.

[ThomasBlaine]

Pretty sure it was 20, but given my track record on timeline-won't push it. I couldn't find the dialogue on youtube or wikia.

 

However long it is, Gaider mentioned he wished he hadn't put that dialogue in when Alistair tells you how long it is. That was meant for a Warden under almost perfect conditions, and a Warden in time of Blight is far from ideal conditions. If I remember correctly, he thought the Warden's time could be as few as 10 years during active time of Blight. Loghain's passed that point, so if he doesn't choose the Fade he can expect the Calling at any time.

 

I see. That could be taken in several ways. If the Calling automatically approaches faster for all Wardens when an Archdemon is active, like by the Archdemon personally accelerating the spread of the taint or something, then it probably does shorten Loghain's time. If, however, it's the increased physical contact with Taint, such as darkspawn blood getting in the mouth or eyes or open wounds, then I don't think Loghain would have been hit nearly as hard as the PC. He's only a Warden for the last few weeks of the Blight, after all, and wears a huge full-body plate armor.

 

And if Gaider literally meant that Wardens could last 10 years "during an active Blight" then the Blight ending within just over a year should equal, what, three years lost? Maybe a few months for Loghain?

 

The PC, Loghain and Alistair all surviving over 12 years after the end of the Blight in peak physical condition despite having been in direct contact with the Archdemon, and rapidly approaching old age in one case, suggests that it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be, really. As for Loghain, a consummate warrior in his late sixties without a retirement plan has no right to expect to live another fifteen years in any case.

[Aren]

Loghain has been a Warden for about 12 years by Inquisition. He has a good 45-50 years of battle and command experience, fights exactly as well as a much younger warrior in Hawke, is a famous tactician and has connections, knowledge and authority within the Grey Wardens and some pull among Ferelden royalty if Anora is queen.

 

 

 

"It is better to make him die for Ferelden than Orlais" is metagaming. Deciding that you want Loghain to survive this playthough or that is indeed metagaming. The trick is to come up with an honest-to-god roleplay that you find cool and interesting and which facilitates the story you want to play without breaking character. For me, my depressed Dalish Warden without a future worth looking forward to and my ruthless Inquisitor who would take Loghain's usefulness over Varric's sentimental attachment to Hawke, and certainly Hawke's rumored status as a potential rival for the Inquisitor's own position, any day are what is going to save Loghain this time around. That's not metagaming.

 

I don't think anyone plays Origins with the idea of Loghain in the sequels as one of the Warden's own motivations. That would be ridiculous.

 

 

 

In DAI i think it is 9 years that he is being a GW not 12.

 

I think you fragmented my post.

I didn't know that Loghain would have been included in DAI and that knowledge didn't influenced my decision to sacrifice him.

It was better for him to die in Ferelden for me because i already knew that his survival would have leaded him to be  exiled from Ferelden.

 

A MILLION times Yes!. As Loghain never survives DAO his survival in DAI is a moot point with me I'm afraid. The harder decision is if you sacrifice another Warden Stroud for instance.

I don't share the rage toward the character is mostly built around the same motivations of Alistair 

Being a GW is already a form of punishment for him.

[Mike3207]

I see. That could be taken in several ways. If the Calling automatically approaches faster for all Wardens when an Archdemon is active, like by the Archdemon personally accelerating the spread of the taint or something, then it probably does shorten Loghain's time. If, however, it's the increased physical contact with Taint, such as darkspawn blood getting in the mouth or eyes or open wounds, then I don't think Loghain would have been hit nearly as hard as the PC. He's only a Warden for the last few weeks of the Blight, after all, and wears a huge full-body plate armor.

 

And if Gaider literally meant that Wardens could last 10 years "during an active Blight" then the Blight ending within just over a year should equal, what, three years lost? Maybe a few months for Loghain?

 

The PC, Loghain and Alistair all surviving over 12 years after the end of the Blight in peak physical condition despite having been in direct contact with the Archdemon, and rapidly approaching old age in one case, suggests that it's not quite as bad as you're making it out to be, really. As for Loghain, a consummate warrior in his late sixties without a retirement plan has no right to expect to live another fifteen years in any case.

I'm just giving the pragmatic view on it. He's under a death sentence, has limited time remaining, was not able to make the sacrifice and will be looking for another path to redemption. It can be the fade, or something can happen in DA4. I hope Avernus will come up with a miracle cure, but it will be hard with the constraints I put him under.

 

Hawke-I can also see where he/she can make that decision. He/she has had their moment in the spotlight and it's against the odds anything else they do in his/her life will ever equal being Champion of Kirkwall or their time there. I'd want to see what the outcome will be both sparing Loghain and sparing Hawke, which will mean at least two playthroughs of Inquisition on PS3.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I was just joking.

Yeah, I know. I just didn't want to use an emoticon in my reply.

[ThomasBlaine]

I'm just giving the pragmatic view on it. He's under a death sentence, has limited time remaining, was not able to make the sacrifice and will be looking for another path to redemption. It can be the fade, or something can happen in DA4. I hope Avernus will come up with a miracle cure, but it will be hard with the constraints I put him under.

 

Hawke-I can also see where he/she can make that decision. He/she has had their moment in the spotlight and it's against the odds anything else they do in his/her life will ever equal being Champion of Kirkwall or their time there. I'd want to see what the outcome will be both sparing Loghain and sparing Hawke, which will mean at least two playthroughs of Inquisition on PS3.

 

You're giving your pragmatic view on it. My pragmatic view is that Loghain is likely to be far more useful in the short term than Hawke is likely to be in the long. Especially considering the huge crisis the Inquisitor is hoping to deal with as quickly as possible. Pragmatism-wise, who you need to stand a better chance of closing the Rifts trumps who would be convenient to still have around in ten years.

 

 

 

In DAI i think it is 9 years that he is being a GW not 12.

 

I think you fragmented my post.

I didn't know that Loghain would have been included in DAI and that knowledge didn't influenced my decision to sacrifice him.

It was better for him to die in Ferelden for me because i already knew that his survival would have leaded him to be  exiled from Ferelden.

 

I don't share the rage toward the character is mostly built around the same motivations of Alistair 

Being a GW is already a form of punishment for him.

 

Okay, the Fith Blight begins in 9:30 Dragon and the Inquisitor meets Loghain in 9:41-42, so 10-11 years of service by then. And no, the Warden doesn't know that Loghain is going to be exiled if he survives and can plausibly if naively go to his or her death thinking he will probably be Ferelden's new Warden Commander.

 

I'm curious what you think he has in common with Alistar, and I don't know if being a Grey Warden really is a punishment for him. He actually seems more relaxed and optimistic in Awakening and Inquisition than he did as Ferelden's ruler or Cailan's babysitter. Or as Maric's advisor. Or as a bandit slash rebel, for that matter. And again, still rocking that sword and shield in his late sixties. You aren't doing that if the life isn't agreeing with you. It's a shame we've never gotten to meet him while his wife was still alive.

 

Hawke being so passive, merely buffeted around by events, is why he doesn't work well as a video game protagonist. The only time he's taking charge of his own life is in Act 1.

 

I think the real problem is Kirkwall as a setting, and the story's structure. A few short bursts of activity spread over a decade in one ugly and messed-up city kind of demands a stagnating protagonist who isn't sensible enough to either leave or take drastic measures.

[Mike3207]

You're giving your pragmatic view on it. My pragmatic view is that Loghain is likely to be far more useful in the short term than Hawke is likely to be in the long. Especially considering the huge crisis the Inquisitor is hoping to deal with as quickly as possible. Pragmatism-wise, who you need to stand a better chance of closing the Rifts trumps who would be convenient to still have around in ten years.

 

 

 

 

What are Loghain's martial skills like in Inquisition? In Origins, Loghain's martial skills are very underwhelming, and I recruited Loghain in spite of that, thinking his martial skills could be overlooked in lieu of his strategy skills and military experience. In contrast Hawke makes an excellent warrior/ rogue in DA2 and I think if it came down to a fight, Hawke would be the better option to pick. I haven't seen the stats of either in Inquisition, so for now I have to make judgements on both characters based on previous games.

 

The final decision will be whether my mage hawke or sns Loghain offers more in Inquisition. Mages normally win that fight, but sns offer a lot in inquisition as well.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What are Loghain's martial skills like in Inquisition? In Origins, Loghain's martial skills are very underwhelming, and I recruited Loghain in spite of that, thinking his martial skills could be overlooked in lieu of his strategy skills and military experience. In contrast Hawke makes an excellent warrior/ rogue in DA2 and I think if it came down to a fight, Hawke would be the better option to pick. I haven't seen the stats of either in Inquisition, so for now I have to make judgements on both characters based on previous games.

 

The final decision will be whether my mage hawke or sns Loghain offers more in Inquisition. Mages normally win that fight, but sns offer a lot in inquisition as well.

Loghain and Hawke are both non-companion NPCs. They both help you in fights, but neither sticks around after you sacrifice the other. So if you were trying to decide based on which is more useful to you after you sacrifice the other, the answer is neither.

[ModernAcademic]

Loghain and Hawke are both non-companion NPCs. They both help you in fights, but neither sticks around after you sacrifice the other. So if you were trying to decide based on which is more useful to you after you sacrifice the other, the answer is neither.

 

Thank God someone posted a sensible opinion.

 

Really, it makes no difference who survives in the end, other than winning/losing some points from your companions.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Thank God someone posted a sensible opinion.

 

Really, it makes no difference who survives in the end, other than winning/losing some points from your companions.

Well, I didn't say it doesn't matter. It doesn't seem to so far, but Bioware could be planning on taking this somewhere. (I'm personally hoping for a Nightmare bossfight where he possesses whoever you sacrifice, but I'm not sure I'll get that because in addition to the amount of work that a boss that varies between three classes would take there's not much reason for Nightmare to possess anything that doesn't have planetshaking power. In fact given how powerful his default form would logically be there's arguably reason for him not to possess anyone as weak as the potential sacrifices.)

[ThomasBlaine]

Thank God someone posted a sensible opinion.

 

Really, it makes no difference who survives in the end, other than winning/losing some points from your companions.

 

That, yes. And then, you know, and the roleplaying value.

[Qun00]

I'm not sure how becoming a Grey Warden shortens Loghain's life.

The man is 50y old. 20 years already is all he's got left, lol.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm not sure how becoming a Grey Warden shortens Loghain's life.

The man is 50y old. 20 years already is all he's got left, lol.

That's a pessimistic estimate. 90 years isn't unprecedentedly long.

[Qun00]

90 years? This is a medieval like setting.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

90 years? This is a medieval like setting.

My understanding is that it wasn't impossible to reach a ripe old age even then. Maybe 90 is pushing it, but I think most of Loghain's chances to not make it twenty more years (barring all the horrible things that we can do to him during the game) were behind him by the time DA:O started.

 

The main hurdle for a man back then was making it out of early childhood. Combine that with the fact that Loghain was living as nobility (and that that grants him immunity to a whole lot of other problems the peasants faced) and the fact that Loghain was clearly keeping in shape, and he might be one of the lucky ones who manages to become elderly. And I haven't even gotten into the fact that Loghain can probably find a mage if things get really desperate: the Circle might be a distance away, but we've seen that Loghain doesn't necessarily care whether or not the mage he's using comes from the Circle.