This is why I love this forum. Origins must be over 10 years old and the discussions still go on as if he were released yesterday.
12 years, really.
Geez, guys. I had to google dates and do math and stuff. Thanks for that. 
Origins was released in 2007 so it's nine years old. But still, fair point.
I'm not sure how becoming a Grey Warden shortens Loghain's life.
The man is 50y old. 20 years already is all he's got left, lol.
Mid-to-late fifties in Origins, assuming that the Stolen Throne takes place during his early twenties.
That's a pessimistic estimate. 90 years isn't unprecedentedly long.
Theoretically, yes, a man in his shape at 65 could plausibly reach 90 even in medieval times. I think then he'd have to retire and get a GW desk job though. Like First Warden. *spits in disgust*
The immune system starts flagging as you get older as well as when you're young, and Loghain doesn't live like a nobleman anymore. And that's assuming that he isn't simply killed in battle when his reflexes slow down and his stamina gradually disappears, killer shape or no.
Of course it's possible the Joining's effects on one's metabolism or "Grey Warden stamina" could carry him through it, completely rearranging the age process in some unimaginable way. Maybe it protects you from other, 'lesser' diseases and automatically keeps you in peak physical condition until the corruption actually takes you. The speed with which some Warden origins turn from relative civilians into indomitable warriors and Avernus' mastery of his own aging through the Taint are rather suggestive.
Also, Grey Wardens as a rule have better access to healing mages than pretty much anyone but royalty.
Good job pointing out that child mortality is what really dragged the average lifespan down back then, with disease and peasant living conditions not helping. A much-overlooked fact considering how many people fondly belive that we're suddenly developing longevity.
Theoretically, yes, a man in his shape at 65 could plausibly reach 90 even in medieval times. I think he'd have to retire and get a GW desk job then though. Like First Warden. *spits in disgust*
The immune system starts flagging as you get older as well as when you're young, and Loghain doesn't live like a nobleman anymore. And that's assuming that he isn't simply killed in battle when his reflexes slow down and his stamina gradually disappears, killer shape or no.
Of course it's possible the Joining's effects on one's metabolism or "Grey Warden stamina" could carry him through it, completely rearranging the age process in some unimaginable way. Maybe it protects you from other, 'lesser' diseases and automatically keeps you in peak physical condition until the Taint actually takes you. The speed with which some Warden origins turn from relative civilians into indomitable warriors suggests something of the latter, at least.
Good job pointing out that child mortality is what really dragged the average lifespan down back then, with disease and peasant living conditions not helping. A much-overlooked fact considering how many people fondly belive that we're suddenly developing longevity.
I wasn't taking the Joining into account in all of that. Instead I was assuming that Loghain never became a Warden and was able to keep going the way he had before Origins, since I got the impression that that was the comparison Qun00 was making.
As for how the Taint interacts with old age, I think it could make most of the natural effects of old age less painful, but I imagine that an older person would be less resistant to the Calling.
As for the First Warden, the thing is that there does need to be a desk-jockey behind the scenes to organize a continent-level organization, and it helps if that person has final authority rather than needing to run it by a warrior-leader like Josephine has to. Besides which I don't know if we've met the First Warden, so we don't really know what he's like. We know he's involved in politics, and I think that's about it. He could be doing what he does because he's been co-opted by Nightmare as part of Nightmare's own plan to conquer Thedas, or because he wanted to be the King of the Anderfels and now has his chance, or some combination of the two... or he could be behind the desk because the desk needs a man behind it, using the desk the way he is because he feels that's what the Wardens need, and quietly going mad using the pen rather than the sword.
I wasn't taking the Joining into account in all of that. Instead I was assuming that Loghain never became a Warden and was able to keep going the way he had before Origins, since I got the impression that that was the comparison Qun00 was making.
As for how the Taint interacts with old age, I think it could make most of the natural effects of old age less painful, but I imagine that an older person would be less resistant to the Calling.
As you say.
As for the First Warden, the thing is that there does need to be a desk-jockey behind the scenes to organize a continent-level organization, and it helps if that person has final authority rather than needing to run it by a warrior-leader like Josephine has to. Besides which I don't know if we've met the First Warden, so we don't really know what he's like. We know he's involved in politics, and I think that's about it. He could be doing what he does because he's been co-opted by Nightmare as part of Nightmare's own plan to conquer Thedas, or because he wanted to be the King of the Anderfels and now has his chance, or some combination of the two... or he could be behind the desk because the desk needs a man behind it, using the desk the way he is because he feels that's what the Wardens need, and quietly going mad using the pen rather than the sword.
I don't much care how the useless, glorified secretary would try to justify his existence. Governments all over Thedas have supported Grey Wardens in the thousands for four hundred years specifically for him to deploy them when it really mattered, and he didn't lift a finger. Regardless of whether it was some gambit to make an example of Ferelden, or he figured 'whatever it takes' somehow didn't apply to crossing a closed border, or there's so much bureaucracy in the order that a reaction time of one year is too much to expect. In case of a Blight the First Warden has the most vital job in the world, and he failed so miserably that an order spanning the continent might as well not have existed outside Ferelden for all the good it did. Four hundred years' worth of Archdemon blood right down the drain.
Just thinking about it makes me sick. Especially considering that the other Old Gods may well be so inaccessible that it will take even longer before the next Blight. Where does that leave Thedas if the Wardens continue to run themselves as they have? There's some decent allegory there for real-world public services operating for the benefit of their employees rather than to properly perform their intended functions in society.
Didn't mean for this to become a tangent though.
Tangents are what keep the thread going. We hashed out the issues in the first 100 pages.
I actually thought they meant the in game timeline.
Huh. I guess that's possible, but why would that make sense to do? We're arguing it from outside the game timeline.
Oh well. Doesn't matter. I'll duck back out now.
There were two separate discussion about limeline. One where it was mentioned it had been 10 years since Origins had been released, and another where we discussed how many years between Origins and Inquisition. I can see where the confusion comes in.
Ah, thank you. I came in at the wrong time.
The only really legitimate reason for killing someone is self-defense, all the rest is just crap.
Loghain's threat in that sense is completely gone post the duel, and so also any reason for killing him.
The only really legitimate reason for killing someone is self-defense, all the rest is just crap.
Loghain's threat in that sense is completely gone post the duel, and so also any reason for killing him.
Does saving the country count as self-defense? Because allowing just that, you can legitimately kill anyone whom you're convinced is a threat to it with that logic. Which Loghain plausibly may be even after the duel.
Does saving the country count as self-defense? Because allowing just that, you can legitimately kill anyone whom you're convinced is a threat to it with that logic. Which Loghain plausibly may be even after the duel.
That kinda depends on a lot of factors, such as whether the threat is credible and a dozen of other things (see arguments on many wars in various places)
But yeah if a country next to you is preparing a huge army to come and kill you well you should be able to kill them first.
As for how the Taint interacts with old age, I think it could make most of the natural effects of old age less painful, but I imagine that an older person would be less resistant to the Calling.
The only really legitimate reason for killing someone is self-defense, all the rest is just crap.
Loghain's threat in that sense is completely gone post the duel, and so also any reason for killing him.
After the duel Loghain is a non-issue he has nothing left anymore.
other than revenge there is nothing to gain.
That kinda depends on a lot of factors, such as whether the threat is credible and a dozen of other things (see arguments on many wars in various places)
But yeah if a country next to you is preparing a huge army to come and kill you well you should be able to kill them first.
But what objectively defines a "credible" threat?
It's all a matter of perspective. Loghain felt perfectly justified doing everything he did to save Ferelden from what he considered very credible threats, and for the most part I personally agree with his reasoning. Him raising his remaining supporters to sabotage the war effort further or just waiting for another chance to physically kill you are pretty credible threats so far as the Warden knows, and either could plausibly doom Ferelden. At what point does the perceived risk to Ferelden outweigh his right to live and vice versa?
It's a judgement call like everything else, not a question of right or wrong.
The calling is directly proportional to the blood toxicity which is also directly proportional to the speed in which the taint spread carried by blood.One should reasonably expect that old people are more resistent to the calling because their blood pressure slow the taint spread which is the reason for why i disagree to allow young people to become GW.
Low blood pressure also makes them proportionately less useful as warriors though. And it's hard to set a proper standard age for recruiting. Younger people will generally have less experience and be less mature as well as physically hardened, all of which are pretty important just to survive the Joining. Older recruits will have an advantage in experience and maturity, but are more likely to have lives of their own and families to deal with like Jory, not to mention being harder to train and getting to adapt to new ways of thinking which is something the Wardens absolutely demand of their recruits.
I'd personally recruit mostly from promising warriors around the age of 25, with a good sprinkling of slightly older ones who showed leadership potential, and only recruit people under the age of 20-22 or over 35 if they truly seemed exceptionally valuable and suited for the life. Or were mages. I'd obviously take all the mages I could get my hands on, even children provided I had someone to train them properly.
Without reading it I can imagine this thread is full of bickering. My own point of view is thus: Dude has a myriad of character flaws and has done atleast one thing that most can't seem to get past (with good reason let's be honest).
The reason I will always spare him from this point on is thus: if someone is judged irredeemable than there is no reason for them to want/desire to do the right thing in the first place. You can't blame a bad person for being bad if they don't have the option of being good.
If you don't give the option of penance to Loghain you remove the ability of him being able to see the error of his ways.
AFAIK everything Loghain is accused of is kinda questionable whether he actually has fault in EXCEPT the slavery which he signed his name to so it's on him. Slavery is abhorrent and I understand on this point alone why people don't spare him - but I feel that is the incorrect choice based on the reason I mentioned above.
Also that particular Warden straight up murdered the Dalish so he wasn't exactly a shining beacon of light either. XD
I'm a little ambivalent on the elven slavery thing, to be honest. Yes, it's by far the least justifiable of his actions and assuming that he did sign off on it that's arguably a reasonable motive for executing him.
The other party in that transaction are Tevinter blood mages though. Who are famously capable of controlling people through their blood. And not only that, there's a whole coven of the bastards hiding in that abandoned building in Denerim with a roomful of phylacteries belonging to persons unknown but likely important. And everybody who knows them personally, including Eamon, swear up and down that both Loghain's and Howe's behaviour during the pre-Landsmeet parts of the game are completely out of character.
It might sound like a cop out on the face of it, but within the rules of the setting it seems entirely possible that those two things are connected. And personally having disposed of at least one of those groups of blood mages, that could plausibly occur to the Warden as well.
On a separate note, off-handedly dismissing 126 pages of people thoroughly discussing a complicated and interesting question about a complicated and interesting character as mere "bickering" as opposed to your own vaunted opinion, however intelligent and eloquently put?
ThomasBlaine disapproves -1
(This forum should totally have a "[Username] disapproves" function to contrast the Like button. Probably not the first to think and say so.)
^ I was going back to read this thread actually in my own time, since it seems from skimming later pages it isn't full of bickering at all. I'm just used to Tumblr nastiness, and no offense intended.
Well... It's not like there isn't some bickering, but there are lots of good points in addition to that. Good of you to appreciate it.
ThomasBlaine approves +2
Heh, it is very appropriate that you're using DAO's approval system.
You know, as in approval points instead of measuring it like "slightly approves" or "greatly approves".
Thank you. I'll try not to make a habit of it. Imagine that could get pretty annoying for the rest of you in the long run.
Unless we all started doing it. But of course, nothing that awesome could ever realistically happen.
Regarding the slavery, he's losing the civil war, running out of money, and Howe convinces him it's a easy way to make money. Things don't work out too well for the losing side in a civil war.
I don't think he has any decent excuse for it... nor will I give him one. Same goes for Morrigan and Caladrius though. She's barking up the same tree.
But I think it's not bad if I make him a Warden. It's still punishment. I doesn't mean I approve of him if I grant mercy. That's more about the character I play than anything Loghain does (and not all of mine grant that mercy).
Therein lies the real difference with Alistair. That your Warden thinks it's a punishment. I think Alistair is deluded. Loghain the only character besides my Warden that realizes how lame it is.
He deserves to die, but not in vain at the Landsmeet. As such, I did not do the Dark Ritual and made Loghain perform the killing blow.
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