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[Elhanan]

I have occasionally allowed Loghain to live, but only long enough to die vs Archie. Still have not seen Loghain in any later games.

[ThomasBlaine]

I have occasionally allowed Loghain to live, but only long enough to die vs Archie. Still have not seen Loghain in any later games.

 

He's magnificent in Inquisition. And heroic. And one of the few remaining sane characters. Although his feelings about the Grey Wardens as an order have softened a little too much for my taste.

 

If you can justify it at all in your mind then you should postpone DLC content until after the Landmeet and take him on a tour of the locations. Hear what he has to say. Get to know him better. See if you don't want similar things in life. And then either do Morrigan or do the right thing like a good boy. Bite one bullet or the other.

 

(Spoilers - The Stolen Throne)

 

 

This youtube video, found while trying to find out if Loghain has any special dialogue if you take him to kill Flemeth, has just made me aware that at one point in The Stolen Throne, after having Loghain and Rowan save him instead of a number of their forces, Maric bullies Loghain into promising that should a similar situation arise again he wouldn't prioritize his prince over all the men.

 

This is actually a running theme for both of them, from Maric refusing to outright sacrifice the army to save himself while planning the battle in the Southron Hills to Loghain being willing to sacrifice himself in order to give both the King and the army a chance to escape, to Rowan getting a reprimand for disobeying orders to save him, and Maric later impulsively springing the ambush at Gwaren early in order to protect Rowan from a pervy mage, nearly screwing it up and getting chewed out afterwards.

 

The message? Sometimes taking a huge risk to save someone just isn't defensible when looking at the bigger picture. I'm sure that isn't a coincidence on Gaider's part, considering whom the book is essentially supposed to inform you about. Loghain isn't a kid anymore and Cailan isn't half the king Maric was. And Maric really wasn't much of a king to begin with. Remembering all this has given me a bit more context for Loghain's decision at Ostagar.

[straykat]

I'm tempted to get him in Inquisition.. I heard it's a good cameo.

 

I can't really wrap my head around Hawke befriending him though. Stroud has a better story for that (at least if I make Carver a Warden).

[Elhanan]

@ ThomasBlaine

I have looked into Loghain post Landsmeet, and dragged Loghain around Ferelden to get a deeper insight to him. Then I allow him to die in order to save those he unjustly persecuted. In my games, Loghain shall never see the Inquisition.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@ ThomasBlaine

I have looked into Loghain post Landsmeet, and dragged Loghain around Ferelden to get a deeper insight to him. Then I allow him to die in order to save those he unjustly persecuted. In my games, Loghain shall never see the Inquisition.

There's a nonzero chance that if you let him see the Inquisition, you can wind up fighting a Nightmare-powered super-Loghain in DA4. (Fingers crossed.)

[ThomasBlaine]

I'm tempted to get him in Inquisition.. I heard it's a good cameo.

 

I can't really wrap my head around Hawke befriending him though. Stroud has a better story for that (at least if I make Carver a Warden).

 

It's a great cameo, and he doesn't befriend Hawke. They're in contact, but argue all the time and really don't see eye to eye on the Grey Warden issue. Aside from Hawke bringing you to him to take advantage of his knowledge, they don't seem friendly at all. At least, not with an aggressive Hawke. Haven't tried the others.

 

And if Hawke is a non-mage and served at Ostagar with his/her brother then s/he does have a personal history with Loghain on some level, and a specific reason for the tension.

 

@ ThomasBlaine

I have looked into Loghain post Landsmeet, and dragged Loghain around Ferelden to get a deeper insight to him. Then I allow him to die in order to save those he unjustly persecuted. In my games, Loghain shall never see the Inquisition.

 

Your loss, then. It's not like you get much more out of the Warden after Origins.

 

There's a nonzero chance that if you let him see the Inquisition, you can wind up fighting a Nightmare-powered super-Loghain in DA4. (Fingers crossed.)

 

Yesh, a freakishly huge Dark Loghain who can freeze you with his glare, crush you with his nose and turn you into a little boy by scolding you like a schoolteacher.

 

Or he decides not to take any more crap from anyone and rallies the Grey Wardens to take over the world, starting with a weakened Orlais, and we can choose between trying to stop him because of wishy-washy anti-war pro-freedom sentiments or agree that having someone competent put in charge is exactly what Thedas needs, and hold the door for him. I know what I'm doing.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

The message? Sometimes taking a huge risk to save someone just isn't defensible when looking at the bigger picture. I'm sure that isn't a coincidence on Gaider's part, considering whom the book is essentially supposed to inform you about. Loghain isn't a kid anymore and Cailan isn't half the king Maric was. And Maric really wasn't much of a king to begin with. Remembering all this has given me a bit more context for Loghain's decision at Ostagar.

 

While doubtless that scene played a role in Loghain's decision to run away at Ostagar, not sending a messenger to warn Cailan that he was abandoning the plan and not having any source of new information since the time when he created that plan to justify his change of plan, and the fact that Cailan wasn't the only one he was abandoning means that I don't find it adequate justification.  

[Qun00]

Loghain's retreat saved some lives, at least. Better than everyone dying in that massacre.

[Elhanan]

Loghain's retreat saved some lives, at least. Better than everyone dying in that massacre.

Proof? Speculation only as we shall never know what may have happened if Loghain had done as ordered.

[ThomasBlaine]

While doubtless that scene played a role in Loghain's decision to run away at Ostagar, not sending a messenger to warn Cailan that he was abandoning the plan and not having any source of new information since the time when he created that plan to justify his change of plan, and the fact that Cailan wasn't the only one he was abandoning means that I don't find it adequate justification.  

 

Proof? Speculation only as we shall never know what may have happened if Loghain had done as ordered.

 

Gaider had a few thoughts on the issue back in the day. I've posted the same quote along with an earlier one in the "Loghain and the basements" thread.

 

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

[Deadly dwarf]

 

 

 

This youtube video, found while trying to find out if Loghain has any special dialogue if you take him to kill Flemeth, has just made me aware that at one point in The Stolen Throne, after having Loghain and Rowan save him instead of a number of their forces, Maric bullies Loghain into promising that should a similar situation arise again he wouldn't prioritize his prince over all the men.

 

This is actually a running theme for both of them, from Maric refusing to outright sacrifice the army to save himself while planning the battle in the Southron Hills to Loghain being willing to sacrifice himself in order to give both the King and the army a chance to escape, to Rowan getting a reprimand for disobeying orders to save him, and Maric later impulsively springing the ambush at Gwaren early in order to protect Rowan from a pervy mage, nearly screwing it up and getting chewed out afterwards.

 

The message? Sometimes taking a huge risk to save someone just isn't defensible when looking at the bigger picture. I'm sure that isn't a coincidence on Gaider's part, considering whom the book is essentially supposed to inform you about. Loghain isn't a kid anymore and Cailan isn't half the king Maric was. And Maric really wasn't much of a king to begin with. Remembering all this has given me a bit more context for Loghain's decision at Ostagar.

 

I just read "Stolen Throne" myself and came to a different conclusion than the woman who made the vid, but I respect her opinion.  (Just another example of how wonderfully nuanced so many of the characters in DA are!  Reasonable minds can come to opposite conclusions...)  Maric's reprimand aside, too many times in ST, characters did the exact opposite of what Maric recommends (including Maric himself) and it ends up being the right thing to do.  In the first big battle Maric and Loghain fight against the Orlesians, Loghain leads a diversionary force to lure away mounted Orlesian knights from the main Orlesian force, thus dividing the Orlesians enough so that Maric can defeat the Orlesian force that's left behind.  Loghain and his force end up being trapped on a hill from which they have no means of escape and are sure to be slaughtered.....until Rowan leads a force specifically to save Loghain.  Good decision?  Definitely, since Loghain is Maric's most able warrior and commander.  And by the same token, saving Maric was a sound decision because Maric, with his Therin blood, was the only one around whom Fereldens' would rally to fight off the Orlesians.  This makes Loghain's failure to launch a counterattack after the signal is given even more of a betrayal.  (Rowan saved Loghain, but Loghain failed to save Rowan's only son.) 

 

Some might argue that Cailan and his forces were already doomed, but how could Loghain have known that?  If it was necessary to have a signal lit from the Tower of Ishal to relay Duncan's signal to Loghain, then Loghain wasn't close enough to the battle to make that call.  Apparently, he had made up his mind about what he was going to do before the battle started.  I believe he was ultimately interested in protecting his daughter's interests and appears to have been aware that Cailan was not only open to cooperating with the Orlesians (unthinkable to the hero who drove the Orlesians out of Ferelden) but was possibly considering marriage with Celene, obviously at Anora's expense.  I can understand Loghain's actions at Ostagar, but cannot condone them.  He sacrificed too many soldiers on that battlefield and diminished himself by making alliances with scum like Howe and selling elves to the Tevinters. 

[ThomasBlaine]

I just read "Stolen Throne" myself and came to a different conclusion than the woman who made the vid, but I respect her opinion.  (Just another example of how wonderfully nuanced so many of the characters in DA are!  Reasonable minds can come to opposite conclusions...)  Maric's reprimand aside, too many times in ST, characters did the exact opposite of what Maric recommends (including Maric himself) and it ends up being the right thing to do.  In the first big battle Maric and Loghain fight against the Orlesians, Loghain leads a diversionary force to lure away mounted Orlesian knights from the main Orlesian force, thus dividing the Orlesians enough so that Maric can defeat the Orlesian force that's left behind.  Loghain and his force end up being trapped on a hill from which they have no means of escape and are sure to be slaughtered.....until Rowan leads a force specifically to save Loghain.  Good decision?  Definitely, since Loghain is Maric's most able warrior and commander.  And by the same token, saving Maric was a sound decision because Maric, with his Therin blood, was the only one around whom Fereldens' would rally to fight off the Orlesians.  This makes Loghain's failure to launch a counterattack after the signal is given even more of a betrayal.  (Rowan saved Loghain, but Loghain failed to save Rowan's only son.) 

 

Some might argue that Cailan and his forces were already doomed, but how could Loghain have known that?  If it was necessary to have a signal lit from the Tower of Ishal to relay Duncan's signal to Loghain, then Loghain wasn't close enough to the battle to make that call.  Apparently, he had made up his mind about what he was going to do before the battle started.  I believe he was ultimately interested in protecting his daughter's interests and appears to have been aware that Cailan was not only open to cooperating with the Orlesians (unthinkable to the hero who drove the Orlesians out of Ferelden) but was possibly considering marriage with Celene, obviously at Anora's expense.  I can understand Loghain's actions at Ostagar, but cannot condone them.  He sacrificed too many soldiers on that battlefield and diminished himself by making alliances with scum like Howe and selling elves to the Tevinters. 

 

But the thing is that Rowan had no way of knowing that Loghain would prove crucial to Maric's ultimate victory. In actual fact she risked Maric's queen and an unspecified force, not to mention potentially slowing the retreat down and risking the failure of the whole rebellion, just to save what was at the time a surly farmer's boy who'd had one good idea and the few knights with him.

 

It works out well because Loghain turns out to be Loghain, but is that an argument for always taking any risk to any number of people in order to save one person on the off-chance that they turn out to be super special and more important to the plot than you thought? Realistically?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

While doubtless that scene played a role in Loghain's decision to run away at Ostagar, not sending a messenger to warn Cailan that he was abandoning the plan and not having any source of new information since the time when he created that plan to justify his change of plan, and the fact that Cailan wasn't the only one he was abandoning means that I don't find it adequate justification.  

I'm not sure that messenger would have had much of a chance, or that that messenger succeeding would have changed much. And that tiny fraction of a chance of changing something would have meant the messenger's almost certain death.

 

I'm also not sure Loghain would have needed any new information to justify that change of plans. For one thing, the estimate we get for how long we have to reach the top of the Tower of Ishal is one hour, and if Loghain didn't come up with that assessment (which he probably did since most of the strategy was his idea) the fact remains that there's no reason he wouldn't have known it. It takes about half an hour to get the beacon lit in-game, and the Tower is tall enough that the game can't be showing us even half the floors. For another, the logical time for Loghain to charge would be when the darkspawn are all committed, so that he doesn't get flanked while he flanks some of the darkspawn. We see that that's not the case after Loghain orders the retreat, and therefore it can't have been the case when he did so.

 

 

Some might argue that Cailan and his forces were already doomed, but how could Loghain have known that?  If it was necessary to have a signal lit from the Tower of Ishal to relay Duncan's signal to Loghain, then Loghain wasn't close enough to the battle to make that call.  Apparently, he had made up his mind about what he was going to do before the battle started.

The signal would logically have been to inform Loghain that there weren't any more darkspawn coming. He wouldn't necessarily be able to see enough of the battlefield to make that judgement for himself. However, it's hard to believe Loghain wouldn't be able to see enough of the field to know that there were more darkspawn coming with that long, unbroken, torchbearing column we see.

 

 

I believe he was ultimately interested in protecting his daughter's interests and appears to have been aware that Cailan was not only open to cooperating with the Orlesians (unthinkable to the hero who drove the Orlesians out of Ferelden) but was possibly considering marriage with Celene, obviously at Anora's expense.

The divorce and marriage plot seems to be a surprise to him if you take him along during RtO, and unless he knows of that he'd logically think keeping Cailan alive was the best way to keep his daughter on the throne. Besides which under your interpretation Loghain wouldn't be likely to try to keep Cailan off the front lines, but Loghain tries right before the strategy meeting. And judging by Cailan's tone it was far from the first time Loghain tried that exact thing.

[Qun00]

Proof? Speculation only as we shall never know what may have happened if Loghain had done as ordered.

I meant his troops.

[ThomasBlaine]

The divorce and marriage plot seems to be a surprise to him if you take him along during RtO, and unless he knows of that he'd logically think keeping Cailan alive was the best way to keep his daughter on the throne.

 

According to Gaider, while Loghain might not have known about the specifics of the marriage plot he was certainly aware of or at least suspected Cailan's consorting with Orlais and was already maneuvering himself into position to confront him about it, such as by sending Eamon into a coma to temporarily paralyze the man's influence. The purge of the Couslands may also have been a part of that, although I suspect Howe did it on his own initiative either due to misinformation or blood magic. Or actual evidence. We have no particular reason to believe that Brice Cousland wasn't conspiring with Orlais on the king's behalf.

 

Also according to Gaider, and as quoted above, Loghain truly did not believe that charging would have won the battle when he made the decision to retreat instead, and did not actually make that decision until he saw the beacon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

According to Gaider, while Loghain might not have known about the specifics of the marriage plot he was certainly aware of or at least suspected Cailan's consorting with Orlais and was already maneuvering himself into position to confront him about it, such as by sending Eamon into a coma to temporarily paralyze the man's influence. The purge of the Couslands may also have been a part of that, although I suspect Howe did it on his own initiative either due to misinformation or blood magic.

 

Also according to Gaider, and as quoted above, Loghain truly did not believe that charging would have won the battle when he made the decision to retreat instead, and did not actually make that decision until he saw the beacon.

I know, but Word of Gaider isn't going to convince anyone it hasn't already, and I think I've already got a complaint from someone about using it on this thread. (Even though I made sure to cite evidence that backed it up for the same reason that motivated them to complain.)

 

Though if we are using it, I seem to remember that Gaider said the Tower of Ishal canonically took five hours to clear.

[Qun00]

Hold on... you truly believe a scumbag like Howe would have to be misinformed or ensorcelled in order to betray the Couslands?

And speaking of misinformation, it's funny that the game does its best to make it look like Loghain had it all planned.

First, that ominous "Yes, Cailan. A glorious day for us all" and then that evil look at the camera before leaving with his troops.

[Aren]

Hold on... you truly believe a scumbag like Howe would have to be misinformed or ensorcelled in order to betray the Couslands?

And speaking of misinformation, it's funny that the game does its best to make it look like Loghain had it all planned.

First, that ominous "Yes, Cailan. A glorious day for us all" and then that evil look at the camera before leaving with his troops.

There were no deep motivations for Howe to betray the Couslands but oh well Gaider wrote the human noble origins so...really i don't like  it seem so unreal.

 

Agree with you 100%  the game makes it best efforts metawise to protray Loghain as 100% evil included via those metaknowldge of his cinematic.

[Aren]

 

Though if we are using it, I seem to remember that Gaider said the Tower of Ishal canonically took five hours to clear.

Then it means that we players are like the titans we cannot perceive the flow of time as humans do,for us 5 hours are 5 seconds

[Elhanan]

And again, even if Loghain did not purposely allow the King to die, he did order assassinations for the Warden's, poison Eamon, enslave the Elves, and not bring Howe to justice for all his known crimes. Killing Loghain is such an easy call for me.

[ThomasBlaine]

I know, but Word of Gaider isn't going to convince anyone it hasn't already, and I think I've already got a complaint from someone about using it on this thread. (Even though I made sure to cite evidence that backed it up for the same reason they complained.)

 

Though if we are using it, I seem to remember that Gaider said the Tower of Ishal canonically took five hours to clear.

 

I can't find a quote supporting that. Five hours? I can see it taking five hours to clear the tower, but it's hard to imagine Loghain waiting that long before calling the retreat assuming he has even a rough idea of when the battle begins.

 

Hold on... you truly believe a scumbag like Howe would have to be misinformed or ensorcelled in order to betray the Couslands?

 

Not exactly, but I find it more likely for one or both to play a part in it than for him to have done it just for kicks. Hearing Nathaniel talk about him and considering just how friendly he and Brice are supposed to be, the case can easily be made that he really is acting out of character if he doesn't have an external factor spurring him on. Loghain too.

[Illegitimus]

Hold on... you truly believe a scumbag like Howe would have to be misinformed or ensorcelled in order to betray the Couslands?

 

Personally, I believe that a scumbag like Howe would have to think he could get away with it before he'd do it.  

I know, but Word of Gaider isn't going to convince anyone it hasn't already, and I think I've already got a complaint from someone about using it on this thread. (Even though I made sure to cite evidence that backed it up for the same reason that motivated them to complain.)

 

 

 

My complaint was about invoking it without having the actual specific Word to quote.  

[Aren]

Personally, I believe that a scumbag like Howe would have to think he could get away with it before he'd do it.  

 

 

To be honest i think that the situation was explained by Duncan.

Howe machinations involved the death of everyone in the castle and then invent some story to deceive Cailan and since Cailan is stupid he would have believed him.

[Elhanan]

Yet when playing a Human Noble, Cailen discovers the crime, yet Loghain never does anything about after getting the same intel. Both are criminals; both are deserving of justice.

[Jaison1986]

Yet when playing a Human Noble, Cailen discovers the crime, yet Loghain never does anything about after getting the same intel. Both are criminals; both are deserving of justice.

 

It's aways odd for me seeing people use the word "justice". It usually comes with a incredly self righteous undertone with it. Like they aways know what is best when it comes to the moral pendulum. These things don't feel like justice, more like punishment, or revenge. When my Cousland killed Howe, it never felt like justice. It was revenge. Cold, bloody and cruel. I was no shining paragon delivering retribuition.

 

One thing I call then is that the Dragon age games greatly changed my outlook on morality. When I was younger, I also had this kind of snappy sense of morals. I thought I was the hero and it was my right to judge everyone. But not anymore these days. I can clearly see everyone do things for a reason, and I'm not wise enough to judge how wrong or right they are. Circumstances play a big part in people motivations, and we should pay attention to that before pointing fingers.