3206 réponses à ce sujet

[ThomasBlaine]

It's aways odd for me seeing people use the word "justice". It usually comes with a incredly self righteous undertone with it. Like they aways know what is best when it comes to the moral pendulum. These things don't feel like justice, more like punishment, or revenge. When my Cousland killed Howe, it never felt like justice. It was revenge. Cold, bloody and cruel. I was no shining paragon delivering retribuition.

 

One thing I call then is that the Dragon age games greatly changed my outlook on morality. When I was younger, I also had this kind of snappy sense of morals. I thought I was the hero and it was my right to judge everyone. But not anymore these days. I can clearly see everyone do things for a reason, and I'm not wise enough to judge how wrong or right they are. Circumstances play a big part in people motivations, and we should pay attention to that before pointing fingers.

 

True enough. But of course when you're forced to make decisions that potentially affect everyone, you have to figure what you can with what you know and take a stance. I wouldn't say that killing Loghain is wrong, either legally or morally. I just personally think that letting him live is justifiable too. And ten times more awesome.

[Elhanan]

It's aways odd for me seeing people use the word "justice". It usually comes with a incredly self righteous undertone with it. Like they aways know what is best when it comes to the moral pendulum. These things don't feel like justice, more like punishment, or revenge. When my Cousland killed Howe, it never felt like justice. It was revenge. Cold, bloody and cruel. I was no shining paragon delivering retribuition.
 
One thing I call then is that the Dragon age games greatly changed my outlook on morality. When I was younger, I also had this kind of snappy sense of morals. I thought I was the hero and it was my right to judge everyone. But not anymore these days. I can clearly see everyone do things for a reason, and I'm not wise enough to judge how wrong or right they are. Circumstances play a big part in people motivations, and we should pay attention to that before pointing fingers.

But then you are unlikely living in an environment that has the same cultural norms as DA. For example, while I would not place myself in a duel with someone like Loghain, my Warden can accept such a task. And since the Regent was actively attempting to kill the Warden, justice being equated to death for such crimes appears to be a fair call.

As for Howe, I was also defending myself; simply used the family sword and shield to do so.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And again, even if Loghain did not purposely allow the King to die, he did order assassinations for the Warden's, poison Eamon, enslave the Elves, and not bring Howe to justice for all his known crimes. Killing Loghain is such an easy call for me.

Fairly reasonable. I wasn't defending the rest of it, just Ostagar.

 

Edit: Although on second thought, with Howe he has the excuse that Howe had seized Highever by the time anyone could do anything about it. So unless you assume Loghain had colluded with Howe to get Howe where he was Loghain's choices were to either fight on three fronts (the Bannorn, the darkspawn, and Howe, and Loghain also seems to sincerely believe the Orlesians would open a fourth) or to tolerate Howe. And we don't really know that Loghain wasn't planning on pulling a "You Have Outlived Your Usefulness" on Howe once the rest of it was sewn up.

[Illegitimus]

 

To be honest i think that the situation was explained by Duncan.

Howe machinations involved the death of everyone in the castle and then invent some story to deceive Cailan and since Cailan is stupid he would have believed him.

 

 

Cailan may be stupid, but Anora isn't.  

[Qun00]

Howe had no reason to do it? He became the new teyrn of Highever, remember? Simple greed.

[Illegitimus]

Howe had no reason to do it? He became the new teyrn of Highever, remember? Simple greed.

 

Ah but how would he have been so confident that would be his reward?  

[Aren]

Cailan may be stupid, but Anora isn't.  

That's why Howe locked up her.

[ThomasBlaine]

Howe had no reason to do it? He became the new teyrn of Highever, remember? Simple greed.

 

And Arl of Denerim too, don't forget. Still, I'm sure you've occasionally considered robbing a bank out of greed without actually doing it, and Rendon Howe seems to have been a perfectly respectable man and good friend to Brice until just recently. Nobody is saying that he couldn't have done it out of jealousy, but it's still more plausible that something else pushed him. And there are several possibilities for what did it that would fit with what we discover in the game without the writers ever spelling it out for us.

 

That's another thing I have an issue with, related to the way Loghain is cheaply villainized by the cinematography. There's so much going on underneath the obvious plot but the game makes no particular effort to draw attention to that fact, and enough of the story is textbook fantasy that you don't know how seriously to take the dots you connect yourself or the things you read between the lines which imply a more complicated chain of events. The game just can't decide if it wants to be high fantasy or dark fantasy.

[straykat]

It's a great cameo, and he doesn't befriend Hawke. They're in contact, but argue all the time and really don't see eye to eye on the Grey Warden issue. Aside from Hawke bringing you to him to take advantage of his knowledge, they don't seem friendly at all. At least, not with an aggressive Hawke. Haven't tried the others.

 

And if Hawke is a non-mage and served at Ostagar with his brother then s/he does have a personal history with Loghain on some level, and a specific reason for the tension.

 

Ah, good point about Ostagar. I'm so used to mage Hawke it skews things a bit.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ah but how would he have been so confident that would be his reward?  

Because he apparently left no actual proof or firsthand witnesses. Duncan even states at the end of the HN Origin that if he and the Warden-Conscript had not escaped, there wouldn't be much in the way of evidence to use against him, and Howe can pretty much say anything he wants. "I speak without fear of contradiction" is one hell of an argument. That, plus he seems to have already taken Highever over by the time Loghain can actually do anything. If Howe's already the de facto Teryn of Highever, then dislodging him would take effort, men, and money that Loghain can't really spare at this point.

[Illegitimus]

Because he apparently left no actual proof or firsthand witnesses. Duncan even states at the end of the HN Origin that if he and the Warden-Conscript had not escaped, there wouldn't be much in the way of evidence to use against him, and Howe can pretty much say anything he wants. "I speak without fear of contradiction" is one hell of an argument. That, plus he seems to have already taken Highever over by the time Loghain can actually do anything. If Howe's already the de facto Teryn of Highever, then dislodging him would take effort, men, and money that Loghain can't really spare at this point.

 

The simple fact that Howe is there taking over a Terynship that isn't his (and using troops to do it that should by rights be on their way to Ostagar) is sufficient evidence that Howe is stealing stuff that doesn't belong to him.   The lack of direct evidence that Howe himself committed the massacre has no bearing on who gets the vacated Terynship.  While it is true that Loghain does have other things on his plate, Howe could only count on that if he anticipated Ostagar being a disaster and Loghain coming back without Cailan.  Relying on Cailan's pragmatism would not be a smart move.  (And of course the "pragmatic" response to Howe is the wrong one.  Not letting Howe continue to draw breath is the smarter move no matter why you kill him, or who you are.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The simple fact that Howe is there taking over a Terynship that isn't his (and using troops to do it that should by rights be on their way to Ostagar) is sufficient evidence that Howe is stealing stuff that doesn't belong to him.   The lack of direct evidence that Howe himself committed the massacre has no bearing on who gets the vacated Terynship.

That much is fair.

 

 

While it is true that Loghain does have other things on his plate, Howe could only count on that if he anticipated Ostagar being a disaster and Loghain coming back without Cailan.  Relying on Cailan's pragmatism would not be a smart move.  (And of course the "pragmatic" response to Howe is the wrong one.  Not letting Howe continue to draw breath is the smarter move no matter why you kill him, or who you are.)

I agree that Howe needs to die, and I'm not sure I disagree that Howe comes off as pretty dense, but I don't think you've really answered the point that Loghain doesn't seem to have the men to handle Howe during the events of the game. An assassination is one option, but it could lead to the same place bringing an army against Howe could since he couldn't have done what he did if his own men weren't either loyal or run by loyal officers who could keep them in line.

[Illegitimus]

That much is fair.

 

 

I agree that Howe needs to die, and I'm not sure I disagree that Howe comes off as pretty dense, but I don't think you've really answered the point that Loghain doesn't seem to have the men to handle Howe during the events of the game. An assassination is one option, but it could lead to the same place bringing an army against Howe could since he couldn't have done what he did if his own men weren't either loyal or run by loyal officers who could keep them in line.

 

Actually that's the thing.  I don't want Howe to be more stupid than he has to be and the same for Loghain.  So I prefer to think they had plans they put a little thought in rather than just bumbling their way from start to finish.  

[straykat]

I almost let Loghain live in a recent playthrough, but thought it through...and no dice. lol

 

I think it feels best when my Warden is equally in need of Redemption as he is. Like a CE who abandons the girls. That's almost as awful as Loghain.

[HeliosDisciple]

Howe's cover story seemed to be that he discovered the Couslands were Orlesian sympathizers and took action. Without Pup surviving to tell their side to Cailan directly, Howe would have all his forged documents and circumstantial evidence lined up before the king would even know it happened.

 

Cailan might not fully believe it, but Ferelden is a very weak monarchy - if enough people do buy it and/or don't care enough to fight a civil war over it (and for whose claim, if the Couslands are all dead?), then his hands are tied.

[ThomasBlaine]

Howe's cover story seemed to be that he discovered the Couslands were Orlesian sympathizers and took action. Without Pup surviving to tell their side to Cailan directly, Howe would have all his forged documents and circumstantial evidence lined up before the king would even know it happened.

 

Cailan might not fully believe it, but Ferelden is a very weak monarchy - if enough people do buy it and/or don't care enough to fight a civil war over it (and for whose claim, if the Couslands are all dead?), then his hands are tied.

 

On the other hand, making a huge scene over Howe madly killing good, popular people just for suspecting them of "conspiring" with Orlais and dealing him swift justice regardless of evidence would be exactly what Cailan would need to do to make a dent in anti-Orlesianism in Ferelden and to satisfy Celene that Howe's actions in no way indicate a general flaw in their brilliant plan to merge the two.

 

I don't think Cailan's hands can be tied, he simply isn't sensible or cautious enough for that. He'll disregard anything he doesn't want to hear and just forge forward, trusting his luck and dragging Ferelden right down with him in pursuit of his mad fancies. As he does in canon, really, only instead of "I will face the darkspawn head-on! It'll be glorious! Quit it with your boring strategies!" it would be "I will marry the Empress! It'll be glorious! Quit it with your boring local politics!"

[HeliosDisciple]

I think Howe thinks Cailan's hands can be tied. It's not a great plan, but Howe's desperate to take Highever before he dies, and this is pretty much his last chance. He just happened to massively luck out with Cailan getting himself killed and Loghain being particularly vulnerable to Orlesian fearmongering.

[straykat]

It's funny, when I just played earlier, I picked the "Howe tortured innocents" line at the Landsmeet, following by accusing him about the Elves..... and this is Loghain at his most self-righteous. It's hard to not kill him after that. He tries justifying all of it.

 

I've picked the Elf line first before and he was more guilt ridden about it.

[ThomasBlaine]

It's funny, when I just played earlier, I picked the "Howe tortured innocents" line at the Landsmeet, following by accusing him about the Elves..... and this is Loghain at his most self-righteous. It's hard to not kill him after that. He tries justifying all of it.

 

I've picked the Elf line first before and he was more guilt ridden about it.

 

Personally I've never been able to take anything said in front of a crowd seriously on any level.

[straykat]

Personally I've never been able to take anything said in front of a crowd seriously on any level.

 

Too bad for him. He's 5 minutes away from possible death. Best make it worth it.

[Mike3207]

To some extent-your decision on Loghain is a reflection of how you feel about Alistair, given Bioware's decision to make it a either/or decision. I find Alistair tolerable, but am easily able to switch him out for Loghain. I'm just not a Alistair fan, and have nothing to lose by letting him go into exile. I have similar feelings for both Leliana and Wynne, but both characters have skills that keep them in my party.

 

It's also a reflection on how you feel about Anora. If you like Anora, it'll be easier to find a way to keep her father alive.

[SgtSteel91]

I almost let Loghain live in a recent playthrough, but thought it through...and no dice. lol

 

I think it feels best when my Warden is equally in need of Redemption as he is. Like a CE who abandons the girls. That's almost as awful as Loghain.

 

What's wrong with just a good Warden (or a Warden who stayed morally good) who believes Loghain can be redeemed?

[ThomasBlaine]

What's wrong with just a good Warden (or a Warden who stayed morally good) who believes Loghain can be redeemed?

 

The problem is that the Warden doesn't have a whole lot to base that assumption on. A few words outside the Teyrn's tent, a short, passive-aggressive face-off outside Eamon's diggs and a shouting match at the Landsmeet doesn't really leave you in a place where "I know there's still good in him" has much weight to it.

[Elhanan]

The problem is that the Warden doesn't have a whole lot to base that assumption on. A few words outside the Teyrn's tent, a short, passive-aggressive face-off outside Eamon's diggs and a shouting match at the Landsmeet doesn't really leave you in a place where "I know there's still good in him" has much weight to it.

To be fair, one never knows if there is good in an individual; not the reason one offers a second chance.

However, I like Alistair a lot more than the General that is responsible for so many crimes. Loghain dies most of the time in my games, even for my power hungry Wardens. After all, who is more likely to be swayed by my influence; Loghain or Alistair?

[ThomasBlaine]

To be fair, one never knows if there is good in an individual; not the reason one offers a second chance.

However, I like Alistair a lot more than the General that is responsible for so many crimes. Loghain dies most of the time in my games, even for my power hungry Wardens. After all, who is more likely to be swayed by my influence; Loghain or Alistair?

 

One can actually be pretty sure, yes. The  failure margin is about 0.8% assuming that Ferelden's population of psychopaths is roughly proportional to modern Canada's. What you're actually looking for while saying that is something in the other person you think you can bring around to your own point of view on one issue or another, and Loghain always struck me as someone who could be reasoned with once you got around his suspicion. And I'd take a strong and experienced general over an overgrown teenaged stableboy to have at my back during some of the most crucial battles in history any day.