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[Jaison1986]

riverdalewhiteflash,

 

Did Loghain claim the the 200 wardens and associate army could help win the battle of Ostagar? This is important to me. If they could have made a difference, I would have expected him to let them help. We can't say these soldier could do the same as the Orlesians before because they are not in power in Ferelden.

 

It doesn't matter. Without the Archdemon showing up, the entire battle of Ostagar is futile. The entire darkspawn horde largely outnumbers any army Ferelden could have. They had 4 centuries to bolster their numbers after all.

[Cobra's_back]

It doesn't matter. Without the Archdemon showing up, the entire battle of Ostagar is futile. The entire darkspawn horde largely outnumbers any army Ferelden could have. They had 4 centuries to bolster their numbers after all.

 

I'm not totally sure because they were never given a chance and they never explained it. I only know Loghain quit the field. I would want complete details before i rule them out.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

*fans self*

I know, right?

[The Hierophant]

It doesn't matter. Without the Archdemon showing up, the entire battle of Ostagar is futile. The entire darkspawn horde largely outnumbers any army Ferelden could have. They had 4 centuries to bolster their numbers after all.

Plus the horde managed to field siege weaponry for the encounter while the Tower of Ishal being taken by the horde allowed them to outflank Cailan's forces and take Ostagar, and void the defenders' hammer and anvil strategy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

riverdalewhiteflash,

 

Did Loghain claim the the 200 wardens and associate army couldn't help win the battle of Ostagar? This is important to me. If they could have made a difference, I would have expected him to let them help. We can't say these soldier could do the same as the Orlesians before because they are not in power in Ferelden.

He said they weren't needed, which I think is the direct opposite of the truth. (The thing I believe to be true is "this battle is just ($**@#ed".)

 

As for the Orlesians not being in power, Loghain's reasons for refusing their help is "they might try to change this." Maybe it even makes sense. It is my understanding every time anything remotely fishy happens, he skips the "logical reasoning" thing and just assumes it's an Orlesian plot. And he always gets positive reinforcement for this because he's never entirely wrong there. Even at Ostagar, his main mistake was that he thought that killing Cailan was the plot to take Ferelden when the real plot to do so required his survival.

[Cobra's_back]

If the Warden knew the final blow would kill the warden during the dueling, then he wouldn't have to worry about Loghain's unpredictable behavior and could have easily signed him up for the final blow while sending Al to marry Anora. This unites the country even if the two of them don't like each other. I read the ending for them and it looks pretty good if he is hardened.

[General TSAR]

Hmm.....a brilliant tactician who drove out an invading Empire vs. a royal bastard.

[Han Shot First]

Hmm.....a brilliant tactician who drove out an invading Empire vs. a royal bastard.

 

A brilliant tactician who also happens to be a mediocre (at best) strategist.

[The Hierophant]

A brilliant tactician who also happens to be a mediocre (at best) strategist.

I can't find the source but i remembered it being posted in the past that Loghain was originally written to be indoctrinated by the Archdemon. His incompetence in not searching the Tower of Ishal for breaches, the lackluster strategy, and him somehow knowing that the Warden and Alistair were alive despite being unable to search for survivors makes much more sense when you factor in what might have been originally intended for his character.

[Xilizhra]

I can't find the source but i remembered it being posted in the past that Loghain was originally written to be indoctrinated by the Archdemon. His incompeteence in not searching the Tower of Ishal for breaches, the lackluster strategy, and him somehow knowing that the Warden and Alistair were alive despite being unable to search for survivors makes much more sense when you factor in what might have been originally intended for his character.

Well, that does make some very weird shots of him make more sense (like the camera lingering on him when he said "A glorious moment for us all" and his staring at the tower with an expression whose meaning I still can't discern).

[Jaison1986]

A brilliant tactician who also happens to be a mediocre (at best) strategist.

 

Those qualities don't matter much when you are faced with impossible odds. Wasn't he winning the civil war before the landsmeet started? 

[Chashan]

I can't find the source but i remembered it being posted in the past that Loghain was originally written to be indoctrinated by the Archdemon. His incompeteence in not searching the Tower of Ishal for breaches, the lackluster strategy, and him somehow knowing that the Warden and Alistair were alive despite being unable to search for survivors makes much more sense when you factor in what might have been originally intended for his character.

 

If that ever was a serious consideration, good thing it was dropped, then. The Indoctrination-hammer being brought down quite liberally in ME is bad enough.

[General TSAR]

A brilliant tactician who also happens to be a mediocre (at best) strategist.

Orchestrated to rid Ferelden of that traitorous boy, too bad he miscalculated at points. 

[Ryzaki]

uggh so glad they didn't go with that. Every antagonist and their mother being indoctrinated was bad enough in the ME series.

[Han Shot First]

Those qualities don't matter much when you are faced with impossible odds. Wasn't he winning the civil war before the landsmeet started? 

 

The Civil War is the problem. Loghain initiated one based on the extremely flawed premise that Orlais, rather than the darkspawn, was the biggest threat to Ferelden. His strategy from start to finish was an exercise in failure, and one that nearly caused the annihilation of his country. 

 

I haven't read the books so I'm not well versed on whether or not Loghain executed a brillitant strategic plan in the war against Orlais, or whether he (rather than Maric) deserves the credit. So I'm just assuming that Loghain did execute a brilliant, or at least good, strategic plan in pushing out the Orlesians. Working on that assumption it then gives Loghain one great or good strategic performance and one horrid performance. The summation of his entire career as a strategist then would be one of overall mediocrity. 

 

*If* my assumption regarding the war of Orlais is incorrect however, and either there was nothing particular brilliant about Loghain's strategic plans or it was Maric that was responsible for Ferelden's grand strategy, then Loghain's ranking as a strategist would have to come down from mediocre to terrible.

[Xilizhra]

If it could have been written well to a point where it made sense then that might have made things rather interesting... that the archdemon could get into Loghain's head. There is more than enough precedence for it when you look at the whole mage issue. They could have written him as the son or grandson of a mage which made him susceptible to being manipulated by an archdemon but not by lesser demons and never capable of actually becoming an abomination. A rare circumstance sort of thing where only an archdemon could reach him. Does even have to be called indoctrination though that is their pet word. But not doing it opened the door to a more interesting character though it taints what could have been a great hero.

The archdemon, confusingly enough, is not a demon at all, but an Old God who's been turned into a ghoul. So that wouldn't really work.

[Han Shot First]

I can't find the source but i remembered it being posted in the past that Loghain was originally written to be indoctrinated by the Archdemon. His incompeteence in not searching the Tower of Ishal for breaches, the lackluster strategy, and him somehow knowing that the Warden and Alistair were alive despite being unable to search for survivors makes much more sense when you factor in what might have been originally intended for his character.

 

Interesting. I'm glad in that case that the indoctrination angle was dropped. Loghain is a more interesting villain I think for having motives that are his own.

[General TSAR]

History has shown you can have the most competent and skilled generals, but if you have an idiot leader who constantly interferes with your strategy, you will suffer a massive defeat.

 

(Looks at Franz Halder, Gerd von Rundstedt, Friedrich Paulus, ect )

[Han Shot First]

History has shown you can have the most competent and skilled generals, but if you have an idiot leader who constantly interferes with your strategy, you will suffer a massive defeat.

 

(Looks at Franz Halder, Gerd von Rundstedt, Friedrich Paulus, ect )

 

Loghain was that idiot leader however. He had no one but himself to blame for the inept strategy employed by his faction. 

[The Hierophant]

History has shown you can have the most competent and skilled generals, but if you have an idiot leader who constantly interferes with your strategy, you will suffer a massive defeat.

(Looks at Franz Halder, Gerd von Rundstedt, Friedrich Paulus, ect )

True. I just headcanon that Cailan had the last say on everything in Ostagar, including the excavation of Ishal. Anything Loghain did afterward was on him alone though.

[Xetykins]

[quote name="Jaison1986" post="16370960" timestamp="1396900725"]Those qualities don't matter much when you are faced with impossible odds. Wasn't he winning the civil war before the landsmeet started?
That's if he had that qulities in the game at all because, the whole damned game I have NOT seen a single sign of that quality of his since the stolen throne. As I said whatever he was before, he is not that man any longer. He was too consumed by hatred of Orlais that he is weakening the country even more that they could not stand a day on an Orlesian invasion. THAT is not shine of as a brilliant tactician or strategist. Even i as a homemaker could probably whip out a better strategy while making pancakes. It is sad what happen to him in the game. And that is something that some loghain loyalists refused to see. And always always making excuse for his actions.

As I said before, IF I have seen any signs or hints or even gossips of Loghain's presence on the blighted areas, that shows his efforts, I would have spared him with my Amnel. Doubt my elves and cousland would be so forgiving. But as it stands now, he is dead in all my play throughs.