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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#326
General TSAR

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Even Anora admits this was a problem that Cailan had. If you talk to her about it when she is at Eamon's she will say they disagreed a lot but Cailan always came around to her father's way of thinking except on this one point he would not budge. Now I found this interesting because it sort of implies that Loghain always gets his way, that he was always controlling things on some level. In fact, it also makes me wonder how swayed anora was by loghain as well because she didn't have these differences of opinion. And yet the one time Cailan doesn't give in is the time he ends up dead and Loghain becomes regent. That to me is quite interesting. That Cailan was a puppet for Loghain the whole time according to Anora (though that's not how she puts it, it is basically the same thing - Cailan always ending up taking Loghain's stance on things)... very interesting.

Hmm....that is interesting, maybe Cailan was looking to breakaway from Loghain's influence and tried to use the Battle of Ostagar to his advantage, which Loghain sensed and so he influenced circumstances that would cause Cailan to get killed and he would be utterly blameless which would explain his actions in the game.


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#327
Shadow Fox

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That sounds almost like reason. However, apart from the first point and last points the jury is still out on these things - whether Loghain is guilty of them and whether they warrant capital punishment.
 

That wasn't a lawful execution. The dork was merely a pretender to the throne, not king yet, and the Warden was abiter, not sovereign. Quite apart from the point that combat was to stop as soon as one party yielded.

The attempted murder/regicide of Eamon was treason which is punishable by death on it's own and his men tossed Irminric into the torture dungeon just for doing his job that means if not directly involved he at-least knew about and condoned Howe's actions.

 

Except it was Alistair won the trial by combat and exercised his right to decide the loser's fate that was a textbook lawful execution from the medieval era.


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#328
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Hmm....that is interesting, maybe Cailan was looking to breakaway from Loghain's influence and tried to use the Battle of Ostagar to his advantage, which Loghain sensed and so he influenced circumstances that would cause Cailan to get killed and he would be utterly blameless which would explain his actions in the game.

 

It really is interesting.

 

I never really dug into conversations with Anora because the time I did and admitted that her father should pay for her crimes she turned against me in the landsmeet and I only had Alistair with me. I didn't see that coming but I can understand she doesn't want him dead. She loves him regardless of his crimes.

 

But last game I did dig into conversation with her further only avoided that bit with her dad - and she comes right out and says that they disagreed a lot but Cailan always came around only on this point he would not budge. I think it's under a branch that has to do with Cailan because I avoided the father stuff due to the last round I went with her turning on me. I think it starts with I want to talk about something else and it's a new subset.... I'm not sure though. Just avoid bringing up daddy's crimes to be safe. But that's when you get this discussion where she says they argued or disagreed a lot. She might even have called Cailan stubborn. I think she alludes further to him not really being the one running things and him being more like alistair (she doesn't compare but that's what pops into my mind) where he's more a warrior or something like that. That was his thing. She pretty much admits he wasn't really into being king at all. And of course this bit about him always coming around to Loghain's way of thinking. I think she says that they disagreed a lot but Cailan always ended up seeing Loghain's point of view and deferring to it. So the whole conversation, all the branches of it reveal a puppet king controlled in large part by Loghain. Anora was also doing much of the running of the country. I think that comes up in this area of conversation (because Cailan had no interest in it I believe but I cannot remember specifically). So both of them were clearly swayed to a large degree by Loghain though I think Anora was more on the same page as Loghain except once he allowed or caused Cailan's death that was too much for her and also all his actions around it caused her to break away from him because she did see in that scene we get that the blight was the issue.

 

But yes, it seems Cailan was swayed by Loghain as a norm.


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#329
Cobra's_back

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The Civil War is the problem. Loghain initiated one based on the extremely flawed premise that Orlais, rather than the darkspawn, was the biggest threat to Ferelden. His strategy from start to finish was an exercise in failure, and one that nearly caused the annihilation of his country. 

 

I haven't read the books so I'm not well versed on whether or not Loghain executed a brillitant strategic plan in the war against Orlais, or whether he (rather than Maric) deserves the credit. So I'm just assuming that Loghain did execute a brilliant, or at least good, strategic plan in pushing out the Orlesians. Working on that assumption it then gives Loghain one great or good strategic performance and one horrid performance. The summation of his entire career as a strategist then would be one of overall mediocrity. 

 

*If* my assumption regarding the war of Orlais is incorrect however, and either there was nothing particular brilliant about Loghain's strategic plans or it was Maric that was responsible for Ferelden's grand strategy, then Loghain's ranking as a strategist would have to come down from mediocre to terrible.

 

If you are into brilliant strategic plans there are none in the book. I think I read it because I wanted to learn more history. Loghain was an interesting character and Marc was unbelievably naive. Of all the characters in the book Loghain was the best.

 

Edit: Spoiler: Towards the end of the book riots breakout everywhere and not because Loghain did anything to make it happen. It is more about Meghren being the worst tyrant and people actually getting fed up. 



#330
Aimi

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History has shown you can have the most competent and skilled generals, but if you have an idiot leader who constantly interferes with your strategy, you will suffer a massive defeat.
 
(Looks at Franz Halder, Gerd von Rundstedt, Friedrich Paulus, ect )


It's interesting that you bring up Hitler's generals. After the destruction of the Third Reich, many of the Wehrmacht's higher officers were eager to distance themselves from the Führer for the obvious reasons. The likes of Manstein and Guderian wrote memoirs claiming to have identified Hitler's gross strategic errors that made the war unwinnable; the clear subtext was that if Hitler had not been in the picture, or if he had paid more attention to the recommendations of his generals, Germany might have won the war.

But this is nothing more than the Dolchstoßlegende, the "stab-in-the-back legend", of World War I, only in a new form. After 1918, Germany's generals claimed that they weren't truly defeated, and that only the actions of revolutionaries and the "November criminals" behind the lines ruined Germany's chance for victory over the Allies. By arguing that defeat in the war had been in spite of Germany's superior generals and excellent fighting men, leaders after 1918 and 1945 could make a case for competence. They could save their own reputations, and their place in German society and history, by besmirching the reputations of others - especially if those others were conveniently dead, or rotting in Spandau prison.

Academic historians have chipped away at these myths for both of the World Wars over the past several decades. Writers like David Glantz and Holger Herwig have pointed out that the generals who seemed so angry with Hitler's "errors" after 1945 wrote down diary entries and letters during the war that were full of nothing but praise for the Führer's strategic initiatives. After all, Hitler's personal intervention with his generals led to the creation of the SICHELSCHNITT plan, which laid the groundwork for Germany's stunning 1940 victories in the Low Countries and France. At other times, Hitler compelled his generals to accept ideas, like the "hedgehog" defensive positions on the Eastern Front, or the delay of Operation ZITADELLE to allow the German armies to take delivery of more Panther tanks, that they later agreed turned out to be correct. Other times, the Führer was willing enough to listen to advice, such as Manstein's efforts to adopt an elastic operational defense in depth on the Eastern Front in late 1943.

To be sure, Hitler was wrong plenty of times. But so too were his generals. Hitler was not the one who mismanaged the TAIFUN offensive by frittering away troops on exploitation missions in the face of a dug-in enemy with superior numbers. That was Fedor von Bock. Hitler wasn't the one who decided to abandon the initial objective at Kursk in favor of a more ambitious, and ultimately fruitless, attempt to carve out a bigger salient: that was Manstein and his subordinate commanders in Army Group Süd. And, of course, one must also take into account that Germany's enemies were numerous, well trained, and led by intelligent commanders of their own: they were not simply targets with no agency. Germany didn't merely lose the war; the Americans, British, Russians, and so on won it.

What does all this have to do with Loghain and Cailan? A fair amount, I'd say. I recently created a thread that argued that Loghain's military decisions during the course of Dragon Age: Origins were not all that well thought out, and in any case were often wrong, or at least no more right than, say, Cailan's. The fact that Cailan was stumbling into these decisions almost by accident, and that he himself did not possess any great military competence, is almost irrelevant. Great generals still make stupid decisions, and even the correct decisions that they make come as often from intuition and gut feeling as from ratiocination or a considered appraisal of the military situation. Finally, Dragon Age warfare predates staff systems, modern cartography, and any systematic attempt to come up with a theory of war. Even the best Thedosian general would not be very good by modern standards. I don't think that Loghain was the best Thedosian general, but even if he were, his reputation and experience still wouldn't be worth all that much in the greater scheme of things.

Loghain's attempt to play off his reputation and claim that he was doing what was best for Ferelden is, therefore, a familiar refrain. There are plenty of examples of generals who screw up trying to pin the blame on other leaders - and if those leaders are outside their little fraternity of military professionals, so much the better. And the thing about a lot of those examples...the generals are often wrong. They were wrong when Hitler clashed with the Wehrmacht, they were wrong when Lincoln clashed with the generals of the Army of the Potomac, they were wrong when Bismarck clashed with Moltke, and they were certainly wrong when the IJA clashed with the remnant of civilian authority in Japan in the late 1920s and early 1930s.
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#331
TEWR

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Not to mention it was Loghain who left his lackeys behind in Lothering with a description of you with KOS orders.

 

Incorrect. The asshat says very clearly "Take the Warden into custody" (emphasis mine), which says that Loghain wanted the Wardens captured alive if possible.

 

haven't read the books so I'm not well versed on whether or not Loghain executed a brillitant strategic plan in the war against Orlais, or whether he (rather than Maric) deserves the credit.

 

The Stolen Throne wasn't really a great book. In terms of the war, here's what basically happened in the story: Loghain joins up with the rebels, fights one battle that we can actually see (in terms of it being written), and then fast forward to "And Loghain's strategies helped the rebels time and time again."

 

That's it.

 

Writing quality of Stolen Throne: not all that great IMO.



#332
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Incorrect. The asshat says very clearly "Take the Warden into custody" (emphasis mine), which says that Loghain wanted the Wardens captured alive if possible.

 

 

 

Because there is a bounty out for them. I would think bringing them alive might get him that bounty more easily since how can you tell if it is a grey warden or just some random person they killed. Do you think loghain wouldn't kill them once he has them? Maybe he'd just lock them up and torture them like Howe did to Riordan. And you know, that's totally okay, right?



#333
Monica21

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The attempted murder/regicide of Eamon was treason which is punishable by death on it's own and his men tossed Irminric into the torture dungeon just for doing his job that means if not directly involved he at-least knew about and condoned Howe's actions.

 

Except it was Alistair won the trial by combat and exercised his right to decide the loser's fate that was a textbook lawful execution from the medieval era.

Eamon's poisoning was neither regicide nor attempted murder. Eamon wasn't a regent of anything and Loghain never intended to kill him. I know you posted in the thread that linked to Gaider's comments on this, so either you didn't read them or you choose not to believe them, and neither alternative is a good one as far as what you claim to know goes.

 

As for the what happened in Howe's mansion in Denerim, why on earth would Loghain know about that? If I have an employee who likes to rob 7-Elevens does that mean that I condone my employee's actions? Seriously, stop attributing Howe's actions to Loghain. If you're going to blame Loghain then blame him for what you know he did (which is plenty), rather than what you want to infer that he did.



#334
Mike3207

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If I'm Loghain I want the Warden taken alive if possible, dead if necessary. After all, by that point the warden has a couple of armies that could be very useful to Loghain in putting down the rebellion against him. Overall,, just listening to the rumors about the civil war it seems like Loghain is winning most of the battles against the rebellion, and the only time he really loses is when the Warden gets involved. if the Warden is killed, for all intents and purposes the civil war is going to be over.



#335
TEWR

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Because there is a bounty out for them. I would think bringing them alive might get him that bounty more easily since how can you tell if it is a grey warden or just some random person they killed. Do you think loghain wouldn't kill them once he has them? Maybe he'd just lock them up and torture them like Howe did to Riordan. And you know, that's totally okay, right?

 

....

 

When did I ever say torture was okay? Please take your strawmen attempts somewhere else, thank you. Christ I'm tired of assumptions made by anti-Loghain people about people who are pro-Loghain. Yes I support the man, yes I let him live, but don't assume what my stance is on every single aspect of the man's story.

 

Torture was something Howe did. Howe imprisoned Riordan. It was Howe who invited Riordan to his palace and made sure he never left, not Loghain. It was Howe who imprisoned nobility, no doubt from a desire to expand his own lands (Dragon's Peak, Waking Sea, and canonically Denerim). You can say Loghain should've known what was going on, and that might be fair, but the blame lies on Howe's shoulders.

 

Not Loghain's.

 

Honestly, I doubt the soldiers were trying to do it for the bounty. I'm fairly certain the bounty came about after the Lothering incident, as Loghain left them there with explicit orders to take the Warden into custody if possible. Since he also wants the Wardens taken alive during the Landsmeet and had his men raid the Warden's storehouse, I think what he wanted to do was simply question them on their order. I doubt he would've tortured them. Supporting all this is that Howe had encrypted Warden documents that belonged to Riordan -- which no doubt would've been worked on decrypting -- and that Anora knows of the intricacies of the Joining, which suggests Loghain was going to create his own Wardens loyal to Ferelden and finding out things pertaining to their group.

 

Course, he didn't know the full details, as evidenced by the revelation later on. After all the Wardens are far too secretive to do any good, so it'd make sense for him to try and discover this stuff.

 

Certainly, by the time of the Landsmeet executing them would be a foolish thing to do. They're far too important in the political spectrum now to be executed without any sort of trial (for the killing of Howe, which while good and needed to be done was done in a decidedly.... less then lawful manner).


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#336
Shadow Fox

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Eamon's poisoning was neither regicide nor attempted murder. Eamon wasn't a regent of anything and Loghain never intended to kill him. I know you posted in the thread that linked to Gaider's comments on this, so either you didn't read them or you choose not to believe them, and neither alternative is a good one as far as what you claim to know goes.

 

As for the what happened in Howe's mansion in Denerim, why on earth would Loghain know about that? If I have an employee who likes to rob 7-Elevens does that mean that I condone my employee's actions? Seriously, stop attributing Howe's actions to Loghain. If you're going to blame Loghain then blame him for what you know he did (which is plenty), rather than what you want to infer that he did.

Ignoring that's meta knowledge when people say poison they tend to mean to kill, I won't debate whether he actually intended Eamon to die or not but that's clearly how Eamon and Jowan interpreted it.

 

Considering it was Loghain's not Howe's men who tossed the Templar in Howe's dungeon I'll assume he knew about it, if you had the authority to punish the thief and didn't and knowingly allowed him to keep doing it under your watch then yes you are condoning it by allowing it to happen.

 

 

Note: I'll admit I let my personal views on the man effect my judgement before which is I'm only using what the game showed me here. 



#337
Xilizhra

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....

 

When did I ever say torture was okay? Please take your strawmen attempts somewhere else, thank you. Christ I'm tired of assumptions made by anti-Loghain people about people who are pro-Loghain. Yes I support the man, yes I let him live, but don't assume what my stance is on every single aspect of the man's story.

 

Torture was something Howe did. Howe imprisoned Riordan. It was Howe who invited Riordan to his palace and made sure he never left, not Loghain. It was Howe who imprisoned nobility, no doubt from a desire to expand his own lands (Dragon's Peak, Waking Sea, and canonically Denerim). You can say Loghain should've known what was going on, and that might be fair, but the blame lies on Howe's shoulders.

 

Not Loghain's.

 

Honestly, I doubt the soldiers were trying to do it for the bounty. I'm fairly certain the bounty came about after the Lothering incident, as Loghain left them there with explicit orders to take the Warden into custody if possible. Since he also wants the Wardens taken alive during the Landsmeet and had his men raid the Warden's storehouse, I think what he wanted to do was simply question them on their order. I doubt he would've tortured them. Supporting all this is that Howe had encrypted Warden documents that belonged to Riordan -- which no doubt would've been worked on decrypting -- and that Anora knows of the intricacies of the Joining, which suggests Loghain was going to create his own Wardens loyal to Ferelden and finding out things pertaining to their group.

 

Course, he didn't know the full details, as evidenced by the revelation later on. After all the Wardens are far too secretive to do any good, so it'd make sense for him to try and discover this stuff.

 

Certainly, by the time of the Landsmeet executing them would be a foolish thing to do. They're far too important in the political spectrum now to be executed without any sort of trial (for the killing of Howe, which while good and needed to be done was done in a decidedly.... less then lawful manner).

Noted. Loghain was still responsible for the Alienage slavery incidents; he also appointed Howe as Arl of Denerim, who purged the place, and Loghain did nothing about that.



#338
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....

 

When did I ever say torture was okay? Please take your strawmen attempts somewhere else, thank you. Christ I'm tired of assumptions made by anti-Loghain people about people who are pro-Loghain. Yes I support the man, yes I let him live, but don't assume what my stance is on every single aspect of the man's story.

 

Torture was something Howe did. Howe imprisoned Riordan. It was Howe who invited Riordan to his palace and made sure he never left, not Loghain. It was Howe who imprisoned nobility, no doubt from a desire to expand his own lands (Dragon's Peak, Waking Sea, and canonically Denerim). You can say Loghain should've known what was going on, and that might be fair, but the blame lies on Howe's shoulders.

 

Not Loghain's.

 

Honestly, I doubt the soldiers were trying to do it for the bounty. I'm fairly certain the bounty came about after the Lothering incident, as Loghain left them there with explicit orders to take the Warden into custody if possible. Since he also wants the Wardens taken alive during the Landsmeet and had his men raid the Warden's storehouse, I think what he wanted to do was simply question them on their order. I doubt he would've tortured them. Supporting all this is that Howe had encrypted Warden documents that belonged to Riordan -- which no doubt would've been worked on decrypting -- and that Anora knows of the intricacies of the Joining, which suggests Loghain was going to create his own Wardens loyal to Ferelden and finding out things pertaining to their group.

 

Course, he didn't know the full details, as evidenced by the revelation later on. After all the Wardens are far too secretive to do any good, so it'd make sense for him to try and discover this stuff.

 

Certainly, by the time of the Landsmeet executing them would be a foolish thing to do. They're far too important in the political spectrum now to be executed without any sort of trial (for the killing of Howe, which while good and needed to be done was done in a decidedly.... less then lawful manner).

 

Somebody needs to get a life.

 

It's A GAME. Go live in the real world a while and all of this won't wind you up so much. Really. It's a good thing to not take all of this so deathly serious.


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#339
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Somebody needs to get a life

That doesn't really disprove anything he said. Also he might have one.



#340
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That doesn't really disprove anything he said. Also he might have one.

 

I'm no longer wasting my time trying to disprove people's opinions or beliefs. It cannot be done. But when someone starts on a bit of what looks like a rant, I will point out that they are taking it too seriously. It seemed the response to my post was hostile. No need for that. It's a game. We're not talking real world stuff here, which I could understand someone getting upset over it, because you know, it's really happening. But a game? Please.



#341
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I'm no longer wasting my time trying to disprove people's opinions or beliefs. It cannot be done. But when someone starts on a bit of what looks like a rant, I will point out that they are taking it too seriously. It seemed the response to my post was hostile. No need for that. It's a game. We're not talking real world stuff here, which I could understand someone getting upset over it, because you know, it's really happening. But a game? Please.

The main reason he was ticked off seems to be that you accused him of signing off on torture, which does seem worthy of a facepalm if not his actual reaction. (Especially off of the evidence given by the comment you replied to.)



#342
Xilizhra

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The main reason he was ticked off seems to be that you accused him of signing off on torture, which does seem worthy of a facepalm if not his actual reaction. (Especially off of the evidence given by the comment you replied to.)

He signed off on mass murder and slavery. That's enough.



#343
Shadow Fox

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The crux for me without metagaming is how much your Warden believes Howe and Loghain are in bed together when it comes to the torture.

 

 

My Warden for example doesn't think Loghain can be that oblivious.


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#344
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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He signed off on mass murder and slavery. That's enough.

I don't remember when he signed off on the latter either. And if you're referring to Ostagar with the former I think you're massively oversimplifying.



#345
Xilizhra

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I don't remember when he signed off on the latter either. And if you're referring to Ostagar with the former I think you're massively oversimplifying.

He literally signed off on the latter: Caladrius' documents have his name on them. And I was referring to the Alienage purge earlier; he couldn't possibly not know about it, given that ordinary guards do.



#346
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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He literally signed off on the latter: Caladrius' documents have his name on them. And I was referring to the Alienage purge earlier; he couldn't possibly not know about it, given that ordinary guards do.

Wait, are we talking about Loghain? I was talking about TEWR.



#347
Xilizhra

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Wait, are we talking about Loghain? I was talking about TEWR.

Oh. I have no idea what TEWR signed off on.

 

I don't actually want Loghain dead, but I enjoy having Alistair just enough that dueling him myself doesn't quite seem worth it. Maybe DAI's imports will change things, though.



#348
Iakus

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My preferred ending is to spare him and let him die slaying the archdemon.

 

"Please, I've done...so much wrong.  Allow me to do one last thing right"



#349
TEWR

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Oh. I have no idea what TEWR signed off on.

 

Gorilla mounts.



#350
Xilizhra

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My preferred ending is to spare him and let him die slaying the archdemon.

 

"Please, I've done...so much wrong.  Allow me to do one last thing right"

Blech. Not only do I want the DR to take place, but I don't see that as his place: he fundamentally should not be remembered as a hero. I'm fine with him remaining a Grey Warden, but what he did should never be commemorated.