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[TEWR]

Noted. Loghain was still responsible for the Alienage slavery incidents; he also appointed Howe as Arl of Denerim, who purged the place, and Loghain did nothing about that.

 

Chronologically speaking, Howe appointed himself the Arl of Denerim. Loghain merely went "We're in a crisis right now. I won't dispute it for the time being if you'll help me out."

 

For the slavery, true he did sign off on it, but if you talk to him about it after he's recruited he says that after the army was fully resupplied and the war chest filled, he would've outfitted the remaining Elves in the Alienage. By the time the Warden stopped it all, a few dozen elves had been shipped out and the treasury was 1/3 of the way filled. Factor in how the Alienage probably has a few thousand Elves at most, and all in all some might consider it a necessary sacrifice to help the Elves advance on a societal level.

 

It's still horrible, but it's hardly as black and white as people want to make it seem to be. But nevertheless, that to me is an acceptable reason to execute him.

 

And of course, had the Circle been on Loghain's side, it wouldn't have even been necessary.

 

Somebody needs to get a life

 

Somebody needs to grow up.

 

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

 

Also he might have one.

 

As much as I can when I'm not working, sleeping, and writing my book/my friends are busy. Which is fair enough to get by.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Blech. Not only do I want the DR to take place, but I don't see that as his place: he fundamentally should not be remembered as a hero. I'm fine with him remaining a Grey Warden, but what he did should never be commemorated.

The stuff you don't want commemorated is basically forgotten. Though something tells me that's also not okay.

 

Edit: Or did you mean you want Loghain himself forgotten? Because that's going to lead to some interesting history-book-gymnastics.

[Aurelet]

Chronologically speaking, Howe appointed himself the Arl of Denerim. Loghain merely went "We're in a crisis right now. I won't dispute it for the time being if you'll help me out."

 

For the slavery, true he did sign off on it, but if you talk to him about it after he's recruited he says that after the army was fully resupplied and the war chest filled, he would've outfitted the remaining Elves in the Alienage. By the time the Warden stopped it all, a few dozen elves had been shipped out and the treasury was 1/3 of the way filled. Factor in how the Alienage probably has a few thousand Elves at most, and all in all some might consider it a necessary sacrifice to help the Elves advance on a societal level.

 

It's still horrible, but it's hardly as black and white as people want to make it seem to be. But nevertheless, that to me is an acceptable reason to execute him.

 

And of course, had the Circle been on Loghain's side, it wouldn't have even been necessary.

 

 

Yea I see it now.

 

Loghain: Sure I sold your Mother/Father/Wife/Husband/Son/Daughter to be used in a Tevinter blood ritual but have a sword.

Wait...why are you attacking me? 

Elves are getting uppity gotta crush them now too.

[Xilizhra]

For the slavery, true he did sign off on it, but if you talk to him about it after he's recruited he says that after the army was fully resupplied and the war chest filled, he would've outfitted the remaining Elves in the Alienage. By the time the Warden stopped it all, a few dozen elves had been shipped out and the treasury was 1/3 of the way filled. Factor in how the Alienage probably has a few thousand Elves at most, and all in all some might consider it a necessary sacrifice to help the Elves advance on a societal level.

Given that he doesn't mention any of this at the Landsmeet, some of this seems like after-the-fact justification he only came up with recently. In any case, it's still an utter betrayal of every value he claimed to be standing for and a sure sign that he's gone completely over the edge.

 

 

The stuff you don't want commemorated is basically forgotten. Though something tells me that's also not okay.

 

Edit: Or did you mean you want Loghain himself forgotten? Because that's going to lead to some interesting history-book-gymnastics.

I'd rather that someone who did that not retake such heroic status.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yea I see it now.

 

Loghain: Sure I sold your Mother/Father/Wife/Husband/Son/Daughter to be used in a Tevinter blood ritual but have a sword.

Wait...why are you attacking me? 

Elves are getting uppity gotta crush them now too.

Maybe that's why he tried to keep it hidden from the elves too?

I'd rather that someone who did that not retake such heroic status.

Well at the stage where that's an option for him, it's either he gets the status back and doesn't get to enjoy it, or the Warden dies. I've never had much trouble choosing between those.

[TEWR]

Yea I see it now.

 

Loghain: Sure I sold your Mother/Father/Wife/Husband/Son/Daughter to be used in a Tevinter blood ritual but have a sword.

Wait...why are you attacking me? 

Elves are getting uppity gotta crush them now too.

 

That wouldn't be how it happened. No one in the Alienage knew about the slavery except for the slaves themselves, who are en route to Tevinter. Shianni knew something was off, but she had no physical proof.

 

Using player knowledge and applying it wholesale isn't right.

 

 

 

Given that he doesn't mention any of this at the Landsmeet, some of this seems like after-the-fact justification he only came up with recently.

 

Not really. He doesn't shy away from his crimes if you talk to him. He's brutally honest about how horrible he's been (and still maintains his other defense given at the Landsmeet, which from a military perspective is true) so I don't see any reason why he would try to make something up.

 

He could've easily said Howe did it, and when he found out he couldn't stop it because of the crisis, or that Howe had done it and while he didn't authorize it he was allowing it to go on still because the funds were needed.

 

That would be after-the-fact justification.

[Iakus]

Blech. Not only do I want the DR to take place, but I don't see that as his place: he fundamentally should not be remembered as a hero. I'm fine with him remaining a Grey Warden, but what he did should never be commemorated.

 

Eh, Loghain deserves to die.  But he was a good man, once.  He deserves a shot at redemption.

 

I could care less how he's remembered.

[Xilizhra]

Well at the stage where that's an option for him, it's either he gets the status back and doesn't get to enjoy it, or the Warden dies. I've never had much trouble choosing between those.

I choose the DR, so it's not an issue. And I frankly don't care about him not enjoying it, it's how other people might be inspired by his example.

 

Not really. He doesn't shy away from his crimes if you talk to him. He's brutally honest about how horrible he's been (and still maintains his other defense given at the Landsmeet, which from a military perspective is true) so I don't see any reason why he would try to make something up.

 

He could've easily said Howe did it, and when he found out he couldn't stop it because of the crisis, or that Howe had done it and while he didn't authorize it he was allowing it to go on still because the funds were needed.

 

That would be after-the-fact justification.

Perhaps, but it doesn't diminish his treachery.

 

 

Eh, Loghain deserves to die.  But he was a good man, once.  He deserves a shot at redemption.

 

I could care less how he's remembered.

I don't see anyone as truly deserving to die; what matters is if the death is necessary. And he can find redemption through service.

[Shadow Fox]

The stuff you don't want commemorated is basically forgotten. Though something tells me that's also not okay.

 

Edit: Or did you mean you want Loghain himself forgotten? Because that's going to lead to some interesting history-book-gymnastics.

I personally would rather history remember what he did good and bad and let people themselves judge him instead of black or whitewashing him.

 

Granted I also wish our real history did this with historical figures.

[Iakus]

 

I don't see anyone as truly deserving to die; what matters is if the death is necessary. And he can find redemption through service.

 

Well, his death is necessary to keep Alistair and the Warden alive without the DR.

 

So I guess it simply comes down to whether the DR is preferred.  I'm not really opposed to it as such.  I just favor Redeemer.

[Aurelet]

When I kill him it's usually...

For the Elves

For Consorting with Blood Mages

For stringing up the defeated army at Oswyn

For consorting with Howe

For trying to kill me several times

For Poisoning Eamon

Because Alistair duels him

 

When I let him live, it's usually metagaming to get the ending I want

[Ajadea]

Hmm. I spared Loghain on my canon playthrough, for multiple reasons. Firstly, the Warden himself was a Surana who had betrayed Jowan and fought conscription tooth and nail until Irving kicked him out. Duncan's attitude makes it pretty clear that the Wardens aren't nice, morally good, or even all that interested in getting consent before dragging skilled people off to an early death. He's also very much in favor of redemption through service. There is a certain poetic justice into forcing one of the greatest enemies of the Grey Wardens to serve them and work to pick up the mess he's made of Ferelden. Recruiting Loghain into the Grey Wardens instead of killing him also brings Loghain's supporters in line with the Grey Wardens instead getting all up in arms about how the evil and power-hungry Grey Wardens executed the Hero of River Dane. Riordan's insistence cinches the deal, and Loghain lived.

 

Even Alistair (betrothed to Anora and hardened) openly ditching the Wardens is politically positive, even if it is emotionally hurtful and certainly unexpected - one cannot be both a Grey Warden and a king, after all. Alistair's open renunciation of the former title helps restore some small measure of legitimacy to the Wardens' claims of political neutrality.

[Monica21]

Ignoring that's meta knowledge when people say poison they tend to mean to kill, I won't debate whether he actually intended Eamon to die or not but that's clearly how Eamon and Jowan interpreted it.

 

Considering it was Loghain's not Howe's men who tossed the Templar in Howe's dungeon I'll assume he knew about it, if you had the authority to punish the thief and didn't and knowingly allowed him to keep doing it under your watch then yes you are condoning it by allowing it to happen.

 

 

Note: I'll admit I let my personal views on the man effect my judgement before which is I'm only using what the game showed me here. 

Well, Eamon doesn't die, does he? It's not meta-knowledge. You only know that he can't be cured of the coma-state he's in. It's really not a stretch to infer that if Loghain wanted Eamon dead by poisoning that he'd have, you know, actually died.

[TEWR]

Well, Eamon doesn't die, does he? It's not meta-knowledge. You only know that he can't be cured of the coma-state he's in. It's really not a stretch to infer that if Loghain wanted Eamon dead by poisoning that he'd have, you know, actually died.

 

Not to mention that Berwick was sent to keep tabs on the Arl's condition and was to report any changes (for good or ill). You wouldn't really send someone there to report on any type of change if you were really just concerned with one change. If Loghain had wanted him dead, Berwick would've been sent and told to report on if the Arl's condition improved only.

 

He had the antidote and would've sent it if told the Arl's condition was in danger (though this isn't known at all, sadly). Unfortunately, given that Berwick was employed by a man who was working for Howe, and Howe has shown a desire for more lands and titles and an insatiable greed, chances are Howe would've conveniently "forgotten" to tell Loghain about this until it was too late... all the while plotting how he could take Redcliffe for himself.

 

I'm convinced the reason (or at least, part of the reason) he had Irminric and Oswyn is because he wanted the two lands associated with their families for himself.

[Shadow Fox]

Well, Eamon doesn't die, does he? It's not meta-knowledge. You only know that he can't be cured of the coma-state he's in. It's really not a stretch to infer that if Loghain wanted Eamon dead by poisoning that he'd have, you know, actually died.

Except it's stated by Isolde that it's Conner's demonic deal that saved Eamon's life. Yes it is meta knowledge to know about Loghain not wanting Eamon dead for sure given it's also not a stretch to infer that it was Jowan botching the poison and/or magical intervention that kept him alive.   

[TEWR]

Except it's stated by Isolde that it's Conner's demonic deal that saved Eamon's life. Yes it is meta knowledge to know about Loghain not wanting Eamon dead for sure given it's also not a stretch to infer that it was Jowan botching the poison and/or magical intervention that kept him alive.   

 

No it's not. It's stated that that's what they think is saving him and they worry about what might happen if they kill the demon. And the Demon says that her life is inexorably tied to Eamon's and that if she goes, so does he.

 

She lied.

 

Meaning the demon wasn't involved at all other then keeping Eamon's condition from worsening, which was an off chance thing in the first place.

[Shadow Fox]

No it's not. It's stated that that's what they think is saving him and they worry about what might happen if they kill the demon. And the Demon says that her life is inexorably tied to Eamon's and that if she goes, so does he.

 

She lied.

 

Meaning the demon wasn't involved at all other then keeping Eamon's condition from worsening, which was an off chance thing in the first place.

I'm saying the Warden has no definite proof of whether Loghain wants Eamon dead or not so either view is viable:

 

Loghain never intended to kill him.

 

It was outside circumstances or sheer dumb luck he lives.

 

[Dutchess]

I thought Connor told me the demon is keeping Eamon alive. I could be imagining things.

 

He did.

 

"It was a fair deal. Father is alive, just like I wanted."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I thought Connor told me the demon is keeping Eamon alive. I could be imagining things.

The demon wouldn't let Connor in on the truth either.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What was the truth?

 

"I crave action! And excitement!" *pumps fist*

 

That seems to be the only truth anyone needs to know.

 

Demons aren't complicated. They're just jealous of our lives...or what they could do with our lives.

As far as I'm aware, the truth is that Connor thought Eamon was going to die, the demon realized he was probably capable of pulling through, and the demon offered to save his life anyway.

 

"edit: Oh wait, you meant beforehand, when making the deal?"

 

Yeah, that.

 

As for evidence of Loghain not wanting Eamon dead, I think Jowan says Loghain promised him the poison wouldn't actually kill Eamon. Don't quote me on that, though, since I don't remember how to get that dialogue.

[Xetykins]

Well, Eamon doesn't die, does he? It's not meta-knowledge. You only know that he can't be cured of the coma-state he's in. It's really not a stretch to infer that if Loghain wanted Eamon dead by poisoning that he'd have, you know, actually died.

So you are saying that Loghain did not really want the wardens dead cuz they lived? Or another example of his incompetence?

[Xetykins]

I think he suspected they could've lived. So he left those soldiers in Lothering to attack on sight (when you meet Leliana). Sending you to Ashal wasn't where he wanted you (with the rest of the Wardens). That was Cailan's doing at the last minute.

Wel its not the only time he tried.