3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Incorrect. The asshat says very clearly "Take the Warden into custody" (emphasis mine), which says that Loghain wanted the Wardens captured alive if possible.

 

 

Ah my bad. And you really think Loghain was going to let them live once he got them into custody? Considering his next step is sending an assassin after them?

 

And then there's those idiots in front of Orzammar who call you a traitor. Loghain's going to bring in a couple of labeled traitors to the throne that got the king killed and *not* make an example of them?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ah my bad. And you really think Loghain was going to let them live once he got them into custody? Considering his next step is sending an assassin after them?

That was Howe's idea more than Loghain's: as far as we know Loghain might have tried to keep it nonlethal otherwise. Though I'll note that Howe could probably have gotten his way on executing them once they were in custody. (Especially a Cousland, who Howe would have pushed harder to kill and who Loghain would have seen as a threat to Loghain's power by way of Howe's.)

[Ryzaki]

That was Howe's idea more than Loghain's: as far as we know Loghain might have tried to keep it nonlethal otherwise. Though I'll note that Howe could probably have gotten his way on executing them once they were in custody. (Especially a Cousland, who Howe would have pushed harder to kill and who Loghain would have seen as a threat to Loghain's power by way of Howe's.)

 

Loghain signed off on it, Loghain labeled them traitors to the throne and claimed they got the king killed. Why should the Warden believe whatsoever that Loghain's intentions were anything other than to kill them? Loghain seeing the Coulsand as a threat to his/her power just gives him another reason to kill him/her before he/she can out Howe.

[KaiserShep]

Ah my bad. And you really think Loghain was going to let them live once he got them into custody? Considering his next step is sending an assassin after them?

 

And then there's those idiots in front of Orzammar who call you a traitor. Loghain's going to bring in a couple of labeled traitors to the throne that got the king killed and *not* make an example of them?

 

This is why I wouldn't even care if he called for custody rather than execution. The only difference I see is that death will come a bit later rather than immediately. Ain't got time for that sh*t. Yeah I always kill those idiots in front of Orzammar.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain signed off on it, Loghain labeled them traitors to the throne and claimed they got the king killed. Why should the Warden believe whatsoever that Loghain's intentions were anything other than to kill them? Loghain seeing the Coulsand as a threat to his/her power just gives him another reason to kill him/her before he/she can out Howe.

The Warden probably shouldn't believe anything of the sort, especially once it becomes clear that Loghain's men believe Loghain's version of events. If Loghain really was trying to take them alive (which come to think of it I'm not sure I've ever heard before) then that's going to quickly change once they're in custody. If not due to Loghain's word then despite his lack of approval.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I didn't know there was another option.

Does one of you mean Imrek and his friends and another mean the bounty hunters with that damn blood mage? That might explain it.

[Ryzaki]

The Warden probably shouldn't believe anything of the sort, especially once it becomes clear that Loghain's men believe Loghain's version of events. If Loghain really was trying to take them alive (which come to think of it I'm not sure I've ever heard before) then that's going to quickly change once they're in custody. If not due to Loghain's word then despite his lack of approval.

 

Yep. I mean Loghain trying to kill the Warden is understandable and reasonable he/she is a threat to his/her control and cover story.

 

Also bloodmage always eats an overwhelm to the face. Hahaha I love dog.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yep. I mean Loghain trying to kill the Warden is understandable and reasonable he/she is a threat to his/her control and cover story.

 

Also bloodmage always eats an overwhelm to the face. Hahaha I love dog.

I find Blood Wound works as well.

 

Also, minor nitpick: it doesn't seem to be a cover story. It seems that Loghain actually believes it.

[Aimi]

Also, minor nitpick: it doesn't seem to be a cover story. It seems that Loghain actually believes it.

And part of the reason that Loghain believes it is undoubtedly because it makes for such a wonderful cover story.

[Monica21]

So you are saying that Loghain did not really want the wardens dead cuz they lived? Or another example of his incompetence?

What do the Wardens have to do with this? See, what happens when you try to extrapolate. It usually a just a face-palm failure.

[Monica21]

Except it's stated by Isolde that it's Conner's demonic deal that saved Eamon's life. Yes it is meta knowledge to know about Loghain not wanting Eamon dead for sure given it's also not a stretch to infer that it was Jowan botching the poison and/or magical intervention that kept him alive.   

I am also impressed with Isolde's medical knowledge, given that she probably went to a medical school in Orlais, probably learning far beyond what the backward Fereldenites knew. Of course, one of her knights probably talked her into a quest for magic ashes, right?

[Ryzaki]

I find Blood Wound works as well.

 

Also, minor nitpick: it doesn't seem to be a cover story. It seems that Loghain actually believes it.

 

Ah true but that would require having a bloodmage

 

Which makes it even sadder. (Also I really have my doubts as to him believing it).

[Aimi]

It occurs to me that I haven't actually answered the OP's question. So I'll do that.

I've played through as Wardens who allow Loghain to live and as those who don't; I've forced him to perform the Ultimate Sacrifice before and I've done the Dark Ritual with him as well.

I have to admit that I prefer killing him. It's not because of legality; most of the time, I play City Elves or Dalish Elves, neither of which really cares about this human law nonsense. It's not about what he can do for the Cause; worries about betrayals aside, I imagine most of my characters would have difficulty believing that this one man can really make that much of a difference against the darkspawn horde. The fact that he has comprehensively lost the Landsmeet, in most if not all cases, means that my characters don't really have to worry about placating his supporters.

Fundamentally, my characters kill him because they want to. He's a man who has been their enemy for most of the game. And this is personal. Everything is personal. Hell, my Wardens slaughter mercenaries and soldiers for just doing their jobs. They've got much more of a reason to kill Loghain than to kill those poor mooks. As Caine said, in a slightly different circumstance: "[Hell], Lamorak. Just the other day I killed a better man than you'll ever be for doing less than you did. Did you really think I'd let you live?"

You might say that the Wardens are a death sentence anyway. That's not the point. Life is a death sentence. What does it matter if Loghain dies ten, fifteen, thirty years off, fighting against darkspawn in the Deep Roads? That's not a revenge story. It's not viscerally rewarding. One of the cardinal rules of story is that when you screw the bad guy, the bad guy screws you back.

[Cobra's_back]

How does a Warden select a possible candidate to be a Warden? What criminals is she/he willing to bring in on a permanent basis or on a temporary basis?

 

As a Warden you may select criminals but what type? What if you don’t want any mass murderers, rapist, slavers and charismatic would be dictators. This would rule out Sten, Zev, Velanna and Loghain. Which one of these can create the most harm in a global scale? This would be Loghain. He is the most dangerous of all these candidate and that is a compliment to him.

Sten is considered temp help who is on a short leash and will be sent back to his homeland. Is he controllable and can you use him?  There is a probable chance you can. He is not as dangerous as Velanna because he put himself in the cage. His status as mass murderer was done in one attack. You also have a one on one conversation with him that helps you determine his status.

 

Zev is considered temp help again on a short leash and will be given his freedom provided he helps during the blight. If you listen to him, he was sold to the crows (never had a choice) and is just an instrument. You make a deal with him and then cut him loose. If you don’t believe him, you can execute him.

 

Velanna really isn’t a good choice for the Wardens. Heaven help them if she moved up in management. She is a mass murderer that has killed civilians over multiple occasions. Truly thinking this out she doesn’t make sense to bring in. Having said this she is less dangerous than Loghain. She just doesn’t have his brains (even her people can’t stand her).

 

Loghain is just too scary to let into the organization or anywhere in Ferelden. His execution is getting rid of a dictator.  Now if everyone knew that the final blow would kill the Warden then he would be perfect for the job. We just didn’t have the information at the time. The question is why didn’t we know? Why didn’t  Riordan tell us sooner? At this put I would have to be psychic to know this very valuable information. 

It would have played out differently. Loghain would have been assigned the final blow. Alistair would have to just to a lid on it. Now you would have 4 wardens that can take the final blow. Loghain would be assigned first to bat.

I’m pretty sure that many of us go through a similar thought process so fast that we don’t really know we did. Our minds have the capacity to put these things in a matrix and define the degrees of concern very quickly without much thought. I’m thinking many of us rules out Loghain with this process in mind. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ah true but that would require having a bloodmage

 

Which makes it even sadder. (Also I really have my doubts as to him believing it).

If you start from Loghain not having actively betrayed Cailan (which less than half of the forum seems willing to do even for a thought experiment) it can make sense. The beacon was, according to Word Of Gaider, lit three hours late. Before hearing that I was flirting with the idea that it was lit early. It is theoretically possible that it was lit at exactly the right time, but that's improbable given that there's larger time frames for either alternative. (Especially Gaider's.) In either case, assuming it was lit at the wrong time Loghain knows it was lit at the wrong time if he can see anything that's going on on the actual field or any still advancing darkspawn. He knows that it is no longer possible to receive a properly timed signal. He also knows that everyone in the Tower except for two soldiers answered to him. It's not hard to see that he might conclude their responsible rather than jumping to the conclusion the darkspawn somehow got in.

 

Edit: Also, Blood Magic in this game is freaking awesome.

[Ryzaki]

If you start from Loghain not having actively betrayed Cailan (which less than half of the forum seems willing to do even for a thought experiment) it can make sense. The beacon was, according to Word Of Gaider, lit three hours late. Before hearing that I was flirting with the idea that it was lit early. It is theoretically possible that it was lit at exactly the right time, but that's improbable given that there's larger time frames for either alternative. (Especially Gaider's.) In either case, Loghain knows it was lit at the wrong time if he can see anything that's going on on the actual field or the still advancing darkspawn. He also knows that everyone in the Tower except for two soldiers answered to him. It's not hard to see that he might conclude their responsible rather than jumping to the conclusion the darkspawn somehow got in.

 

Edit: Also, Blood Magic in this game is freaking awesome.

 

Why on Thedas would he assume the two grey wardens were so eager to betray his king that they got all of their fellows killed. That doesn't even make any sense. The order exists to combat the blight. Letting it strengthen for...some reason while weakening their own order is stupid It's far more likely the plan simply went array. It's not like the GWs had any reason for a massive grude against Cailan. He pretty much rolled out the welcome wagon.

 

Not to mention Loghain's men were the ones securing the tower. I'm pretty sure the darkspawn didn't make that giant hole in a few hours. Not silently anyway. Ugh I need to replay and not skip Ostagar. I forgot a bit of stuff. I'm not sure if the tunnels were mentioned.

 

Only skill I really liked was blood wound.

[Mike3207]

Yep. I mean Loghain trying to kill the Warden is understandable and reasonable he/she is a threat to his/her control and cover story.

 

Also bloodmage always eats an overwhelm to the face. Hahaha I love dog.

You can also Overwhelm with a Ranger's summoned wolf or a shapeshifted mage with Master Shapeshifter.

 

Tried blood magic once, but the blood graphic did it for me. No more blood magic.

[Cobra's_back]

It occurs to me that I haven't actually answered the OP's question. So I'll do that.

I've played through as Wardens who allow Loghain to live and as those who don't; I've forced him to perform the Ultimate Sacrifice before and I've done the Dark Ritual with him as well.

I have to admit that I prefer killing him. It's not because of legality; most of the time, I play City Elves or Dalish Elves, neither of which really cares about this human law nonsense. It's not about what he can do for the Cause; worries about betrayals aside, I imagine most of my characters would have difficulty believing that this one man can really make that much of a difference against the darkspawn horde. The fact that he has comprehensively lost the Landsmeet, in most if not all cases, means that my characters don't really have to worry about placating his supporters.

Fundamentally, my characters kill him because they want to. He's a man who has been their enemy for most of the game. And this is personal. Everything is personal. Hell, my Wardens slaughter mercenaries and soldiers for just doing their jobs. They've got much more of a reason to kill Loghain than to kill those poor mooks. As Caine said, in a slightly different circumstance: "[Hell], Lamorak. Just the other day I killed a better man than you'll ever be for doing less than you did. Did you really think I'd let you live?"

You might say that the Wardens are a death sentence anyway. That's not the point. Life is a death sentence. What does it matter if Loghain dies ten, fifteen, thirty years off, fighting against darkspawn in the Deep Roads? That's not a revenge story. It's not viscerally rewarding. One of the cardinal rules of story is that when you screw the bad guy, the bad guy screws you back.

 

True. This is why we have a justice system. The victims can't move on without justice. I really can't see an elf giving Loghain a pass at all. This guy can take a city Elf into a new never of rage.

[Mike3207]

True. This is why we have a justice system. The victims can't move on without justice. I really can't see an elf giving Loghain a pass at all. This guy can take a city Elf into a new never of rage.

Not a city elf, no. I could see a Dalish Elf doing it.

 

I think Loghain worked with the Dalish before, and a Dalish might think she/he would have a better chance at a homeland if they spared Loghain and made his daughter the Queen.

[Aimi]

True. This is why we have a justice system. The victims can't move on without justice. I really can't see an elf giving Loghain a pass at all. This guy can take a city Elf into a new never of rage.

With the characters I play as most often, it's not about justice. Justice is abstract and nebulous. Is there more justice for Loghain's victims in compelling him to serve as a Warden or in simply executing him? What effect do his positive efforts in service of Ferelden have on the justice that should be meted out to him? You can argue endlessly about that stuff. People have been doing it in this thread for twenty pages.

For those characters, it's about something very concrete and specific. Loghain screwed them. They want to screw him back. That's the long and short. It's not about justice, it's about extinction.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Why on Thedas would he assume the two grey wardens were so eager to betray his king that they got all of their fellows killed. That doesn't even make any sense. The order exists to combat the blight. Letting it strengthen for...some reason while weakening their own order is stupid It's far more likely the plan simply went array. It's not like the GWs had any reason for a massive grude against Cailan. He pretty much rolled out the welcome wagon.

 

Not to mention Loghain's men were the ones securing the tower. I'm pretty sure the darkspawn didn't make that giant hole in a few hours. Not silently anyway. Ugh I need to replay and not skip Ostagar. I forgot a bit of stuff. I'm not sure if the tunnels were mentioned.

 

Only skill I really liked was blood wound.

Loghain apparently sealed the Tower after having figured out there were tunnels that led he doesn't know where. But that doesn't mean he has any reason to think the darkspawn were there.

 

Edit: Also, Blood Wound is most of why I like that spec.