Loghain apparently sealed the Tower after having figured out there were tunnels that led he doesn't know where. But that doesn't mean he has any reason to think the darkspawn were there.
Edit: Also, Blood Wound is most of why I like that spec.
It's more of a logical solution than the wardens going "muwahahah let's get everyone killed" though.
XD You're really suck with three specializations cause shapeshifter is hot garbage without mods 
It's more of a logical solution than the wardens going "muwahahah let's get everyone killed" though.
XD You're really suck with three specializations cause shapeshifter is hot garbage without mods
Shapeshifter is a slow building specialization, but once you get your spellpower up, it really starts to shine. Take a look at Ford's shapeshifter research on the Wikia, and you'll see how a bear can build his strength/dex/con from 21/23/25 at 30 spellpower to 63/63/79 if you make it to 240 spellpower.
Shapeshifter is a slow building specialization, but once you get your spellpower up, it really starts to shine. Take a look at Ford's shapeshifter research on the Wikia, and you'll see how a bear can build his strength/dex/con from 21/23/25 at 30 spellpower to 63/63/79 if you make it to 240 spellpower.
Ah. So I just lack the patience for it. Much easier to nuke things with fireballs or CC them to death.
Eamon's poisoning was neither regicide nor attempted murder. Eamon wasn't a regent of anything and Loghain never intended to kill him. I know you posted in the thread that linked to Gaider's comments on this, so either you didn't read them or you choose not to believe them, and neither alternative is a good one as far as what you claim to know goes.
As for the what happened in Howe's mansion in Denerim, why on earth would Loghain know about that? If I have an employee who likes to rob 7-Elevens does that mean that I condone my employee's actions? Seriously, stop attributing Howe's actions to Loghain. If you're going to blame Loghain then blame him for what you know he did (which is plenty), rather than what you want to infer that he did.
I don't think you have to prove attempted murder. Poisoning the man is a crime. Helping a blood mage is a crime. Kidnapping a templar is a crime. Can you connect the templar to loghain? Per game and can be found in Wiki:
"After defeating Arl Howe during Rescue the Queen, the Warden can access the northern part of his dungeon. Irminric, a Templar in a state of lyrium withdrawal, can be found in one of the cells. The Warden learns that Irminric was one of the templars sent after Jowan to hunt him down, as per the Magi Origin story. He tells the Warden that he cornered Jowan near Redcliffe, but Teyrn Loghain's men took Jowan from him and brought Irminric himself to the dungeon. He begs the Warden to give his ring to his sister, Bann Alfstanna, in the Gnawed Noble Tavern in Denerim"
No noble has jurisdiction over Templars.
Finally his most problematic crime to me is Humanoid trafficking of Ferelden citizens. Ferelden told the city elves they were free and then Loghain does this. I did read the Stolen Throne and I can say that this actions brings Loghain closer to the people he hated most.
With the characters I play as most often, it's not about justice. Justice is abstract and nebulous. Is there more justice for Loghain's victims in compelling him to serve as a Warden or in simply executing him? What effect do his positive efforts in service of Ferelden have on the justice that should be meted out to him? You can argue endlessly about that stuff. People have been doing it in this thread for twenty pages.
For those characters, it's about something very concrete and specific. Loghain screwed them. They want to screw him back. That's the long and short. It's not about justice, it's about extinction.
I see what you mean. It is my mistake. It is true that I would want him extinct.
It's more of a logical solution than the wardens going "muwahahah let's get everyone killed" though.
XD You're really suck with three specializations cause shapeshifter is hot garbage without mods
Yes to both, though again, Loghain simply assuming that everything suspicious that happens is an Orlesian plot without bothering to use logic has always gotten him at least close to the truth before. (At least insofar as was ever revealed to him.)
Yes to both, though again, Loghain simply assuming that everything suspicious that happens is an Orlesian plot without bothering to use logic has always gotten him at least close to the truth before. (At least insofar as was ever revealed to him.)
That's not logic. That's not behavior I'd expect from a respected general. That sounds like a crazy paranoid nut who would kill anyone he thought was a threat.
That's not logic. That's not behavior I'd expect from a respected general. That sounds like a crazy paranoid nut who would kill anyone he thought was a threat.
I said that's not logic, yes. And yes, you could very easily describe Loghain as a crazy paranoid nut. I'm just saying there's a credible interpretation in which he's not a crazy, treasonous paranoid nut, and that the Orlesians haven't exactly done anything to make crazy paranoia less easy for him either way.
The only other interpretation I can see of him assuming the wardens killed Cailan outside being a nut is being a moron. It's not much of an improvement.
Anyway. I ask you people to give me at least one strong argument why Loghain must die.
No personal feelings. For example "he tried to kill Warden." or "Alistair is cute." or "because i feel like it." (<- last one is a reason enough for me, but this argument is not objective.)
Without making him responsible for mistakes/crimes of other people like Howe or Duncan.
Mind you - slavery could be evaluated as a crime(and it is i guess, in given setting), but is it worthy of death? Side note from old Legioneer - if city elves allow other to treat them as cattle, they deserve to be treated as cattle (you may not take this point of view as valid argument.)
I have played DAO many, many, MANY times...and I can say I only spared Loghaine once and that was on my first play through as a casteless dwarf, because hey...they had a lot in common. Anyways, with every playthrough I found myself liking him less and less and now I finally got around to playing a Human Noble (yes, yes...I know...last but not least) and I abhor the man! I understand he most likely suffering from PTSD from the Orlesian War, but damn man...half way through the game I was very tempted to throw down my controller and be like "FINE! HAVE THE THRONE WHY DON'T YOU! You can't stop the darkspawne anyway! I have a claim to the throne, I am all cozy with Alistair, so we'll go hang out in Orlais with the rest of the Wardens and let the Archdemon eat you for lunch...I'll come back for my throne later..."
But I just went off on a tangent didn't I? I was supposed to say why I killed him...well, my reason is this: he was the Hero of Ferelden. The country respected him and trusted him to protect them and save them. As proven in the Landsmeet, he has failed to uphold that and betrayed that trust. Now, Riodan comes and says to make him a Grey Warden -- people say its a punishment in and of itself -- full of criminals, but look at how the people revere them despite how hard Loghain had tried to slander over the course of the game? Now you can call me petty, but personally, Loghain doesn't deserve that. He is a murderer and a traitor that the Warden has worked tirelessly to bring down this entire game...only to allow him to be revered again as a sort of hero? I don't think so. Loghain had his chance to be a Hero and he screwed it up. Now its his time to die.
The only other interpretation I can see of him assuming the wardens killed Cailan outside being a nut is being a moron. It's not much of an improvement.
Well, one could argue that he is. Though on the other hand, the Orlesians made it really easy for him to see everything as a plot. By, you know, constantly plotting.
Well, one could argue that he is. Though on the other hand, the Orlesians made it really easy for him to see everything as a plot. By, you know, constantly plotting
That doesn't really justify the stupidity. It's one thing if he came to a reasonable orlesian plot (like manipulating Cailan fine). Saying the wardens wanted Cailan dead to serve Orlesian masters that they faked fighting the blight and destroyed a large number of their order (which already isn't even that large to begin with) is just...no. Even if the Orlesians were plotting a blighted Fereldan is exactly the last thing they want. It would be weaker yes but the land would also be unusable.
Douxdel,
I just love your post and enjoyed the laugh. It would have been a laugh to give him the throne, and we don't come back until it is Ghoul Town. I wonder how Loghain would have taken it when his daughter turned into a broodmother and ate his face off. What a comforting thought?
"She ripped off Loghain's face...and drank of his blood."
*shudders*
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
For all the debate about Loghain, there really isn't any valid reason to see this guy in a good light. There just is not. Just the fact that he turned his troops in battle is questionable enough. Leaving the field is very questionable. The raging debate over this is where people will say it couldn't have been won based on what we see almost shows signs of insanity on their part because all we see is a hoard attacking and we don't see how many troops Loghain has because we are narrowly focused on him and his command to retreat. Not one thing there tells us it was not winnable. It's speculation at best.
Then we have Jowan telling us loghain told him to poison the arl. Loghain fans debate this point and say Jowan is lying or it wasn't loghain. Well, I'm pretty sure there are paintings all throughout ferelden of their greatest hero general. I have zero doubt about that. And I'm pretty sure that Jowan has no reason to poison eamon as all he wants is freedom. That's all he ever wanted. His actions in the tower were stupid but they were all with one goal in mind... freedom. Poisoning eamon is one thing that would not grant him that for sure. So there's not logic in that argument. And to say it was an imposter... that is sort of a desperate excuse. We see loghain hire assassins to kill us. We know there is a bounty on us. Why would we start speculating that he isn't tied in to all this. For the writers to say 'oh no that wasn't the case' just makes it horrible writing. It really just shows how awful they are at their job to make that a red herring. We already know loghain was going to be indoctrinate at one point but they changed it. Fact is now we've headed into ME3 ending territory because there was a different ending slated but then they changed it and that change threw the whole thing off. If loghain was slated to be indoctrinated then all his actions were going to be bad guy actions. This means that the writers shifted gears last minute, just as the did with the end of ME3 because there was a story leak and now they decide to make loghain not indoctrinated but also they didn't want him to be bad on his own. He was meant to be a victim. Ostagar DLC is another justification for his actions. They are trying to paint themselves out of a corner. They are working really hard with those Orlais documents and maybe a divorce to show loghain as justified. It's audience manipulation and you see it throughout the game working overtime to make things look less certain of his involvement. Likely there were more scenes cut regarding loghain like probably one where he meets Jowan because now they want to show the hero as less evil once they get rid of the indoctrination and as a result it's shoddily done. Throw in a few men at the gate of Orzammar and it looks like he's really trying to raise an army, but it's still weak
This is what happens with every even action that paints him badly. People argue these points and even debate his level of involvement then justify his actions. But really they should be considering that they've been cheaply manipulated by the writers because loghain was going to be indoctrinated and so his actions were all going to be bad guy actions. But the writers changed it only they couldn't change set pieces. That requires too much writing. So now they have to make them look more vague because the last thing the wanted was for him to be a straight out villain. So they beef up this Orlais bit. Probably to that end I think they thinned out the Warden forces. Those are easy changes that shift things. People who defend Loghain just don't even realize how they are being manipulated. If you take this change into consideration, you see that it was all loghain, but now they go back on everything and make it look 'questionable' and then get behind him not being a bad guy. Sure they can do that, but they have to make those set pieces look less stupid to those of us who see there is something not right with them and that they are illogical.
They couldn't change the set piece of Jowan so now it's become a 'questionable' event as to whether it was loghain or not. That is debated, but it's not logical.
People fall for it, hook, line and sinker but all they are falling for is writers who decided they didn't like the indoctrination idea so they removed things that were definitive while not really making all the set pieces still have some kind of sense or reason to them. That's bad writing. You change something big like that, you HAVE to alter everything accordingly. But they couldn't. So they left it questionable then later say 'oh that wasn't it'.
That's not logic. That's not behavior I'd expect from a respected general. That sounds like a crazy paranoid nut who would kill anyone he thought was a threat.
You're not paranoid if they really are out to get you. I don't think the Orlesians were in that circumstance, but Loghain's past history shows that there's nothing wrong with being cautious around Orlesians.
You're not paranoid if they really are out to get you. I don't think the Orlesians were in that circumstance, but Loghain's past history shows that there's nothing wrong with being cautious around Orlesians.
What had the Wardens done to make him think they'd be working for the Orlesians? Especially when doing so meant not doing their actual job (defeating the blight).
Turning the Chavliers away? Fine I can get behind that. Blaming the wardens for the king death? Wut?
What had the Wardens done to make him think they'd be working for the Orlesians? Especially when doing so meant not doing their actual job (defeating the blight).
Turning the Chavliers away? Fine I can get behind that. Blaming the wardens for the king death? Wut?
Leliana.
Leliana.
Who you don't even have to recruit? What about her?
She is a former Orlesian spy/bard. if I'm Loghain, her presence in the party is sufficient to show that the Warden and his party are working with the Orlesians hand and foot.
I'll admit, the quickness with which Leliana returns to the Orlesian chantry makes me wonder if she ever really left.
She is a former Orlesian spy/bard. if I'm Loghain, her presence in the party is sufficient to show that the Warden and his party are working with the Orlesians hand and foot.
1. She's an optional recruit. Loghain does his actions regardless
2. Loghain has his people sent after you before you even recruit her.
3. How does Loghain even know Leliana's past?
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
1. She's an optional recruit. Loghain does his actions regardless
2. Loghain has his people sent after you before you even recruit her.
3. How does Loghain even know Leliana's past?
This is what I mean about people defending Loghain just fall into the crazy category after a while. In this thread we've already had the defending of slavery. Now this. What else will people justify in order to get behind the guy who was MEANT to behave as a bad guy but they changed it when they decided they didn't want him indoctrinated.
People rationalize the actions Loghain took. It's not the same thing as defending slavery or what not. Nothing crazy about at all.I can understand the decisions Loghain made, but still realize he went too far. What you have to decide is whether the actions he took warrant his death, and more often than not, I don't think his actions warrant that.
Or, more to the point, there are extenuating circumstances like the Blight that are important to sparing his life.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
People rationalize the actions Loghain took. It's not the same thing as defending slavery or what not. Nothing crazy about at all.I can understand the decisions Loghain made, but still realize he went too far. What you have to decide is whether the actions he took warrant his death, and more often than not, I don't think his actions warrant that.
Or, more to the point, there are extenuating circumstances like the Blight that are important to sparing his life.
And again, it's not really a matter of if they warrant death or not when you are painted into a corner that is death or life and death costs you alistair whom you may have romanced the whole game. How many people do you think upon discovering that reloaded an old save and killed him. So really it's not REALLY a fair choice but another manipulation where now you can either easily justify killing or saving him BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO. If you care about alistair then you justify killing him if it wasn't already a plan. If you don't then you justify letting him live. You justify your wants rather than his actions because it comes down to what you want. People here who argue for loghain clearly let him live in their games... most of them I'm sure. And I'd even venture to say a large portion of them are playing males who have not romanced alistair and therefore don't care about his outcome as much. Those who kill him, well that was already pretty much the plan. That or imprison him. But you don't get the imprison him option. You are force into a wacko situation where outcomes shift in the wake of your choice. This is now no longer a true and free decision. It's a forced one. You are backed into a corner and have two outcomes. Loghain lives and you lose Alistair. Loghain dies and you keep Alistair. There is no prison option - best you get is making him a warden but still losing Alistair. So it really is justification because most people would probably just kill or imprison him. Not a whole lot would let him go. Some would make him a warden. But really the majority would just probably imprison him and then later make him a warden after Riordan updates them. But these smart options don't exist. This is why these debates rage.
So few people here can justify not imprisoning him that it really is a debate that justifies your personal choice. But your personal choice is likely not the one you would have made had it not been so forced and stupid. Therefore, all these debates about loghain are kind of stupid at their onset since the overwhelming majority would just stick him in a prison then go recruit him after we find out about how we die killing the archdemon. But again, this is not an option so it becomes a debate where people are justifying their actions and not killing him IN THIS SITUATION where the only option other option is death has its merits. What we see here is what the world would be like if there was no such thing as prison and everything was death or no death. It's one big death penalty debate forced by game mechanics - thank you very much BW.
-brain implodes- Yup. Loghain is just downright crazy. I REFUSE to overthink it right now...especially since AS I SPEAK my character is heading to the Landsmeet...heaven forbid I might actually spare the poor bastard out of pity... x.x
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