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Should Loghain Live or Die?

Débuté par ReD BaKen9 , avril 06 2014 03:58

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#426
sylvanaerie
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 07:29

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Yea, I hate being pigeon-holed into one or the other. I hate killing him in front of his daughter like that, but the only other option is a pat on the back and a free pass for a multitude of crimes I feel does warrant punishment. 

 

So he dies, every time in my games, because that's the only option left to me and because there's no freaking way I want him in my group.  

 

And yea, I've seen some really freaking stupid arguments rationalizing him, right down to defending slavery.  "They would have been better off as slaves than in the Alienage." or "They would have died when the Darkspawn razed the city."


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#427
Ryzaki
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 07:34

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People rationalize the actions Loghain took. It's not the same thing as defending slavery or what not. Nothing crazy about at all.I can understand the decisions Loghain made, but still realize he went too far. What you have to decide is whether the actions he took warrant his death, and more often than not, I don't think his actions warrant that.

 

Or, more to the point, there are extenuating circumstances like the Blight that are important to sparing his life.

 

I'm not arguing that there's no reasons to spare him. I'm arguing some of the really stretching it scenarios like He wasn't trying to kill the warden. He had a good reason to think the wardens wanted to kill Cailan. and any pragmatic warden would do it cause numbers.


#428
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 07:57

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Yea, I hate being pigeon-holed into one or the other. I hate killing him in front of his daughter like that, but the only other option is a pat on the back and a free pass for a multitude of crimes I feel does warrant punishment. 

 

So he dies, every time in my games, because that's the only option left to me and because there's no freaking way I want him in my group.  

 

And yea, I've seen some really freaking stupid arguments rationalizing him, right down to defending slavery.  "They would have been better off as slaves than in the Alienage." or "They would have died when the Darkspawn razed the city."

 

This is why I just do what I want. I run the game the way I want and I don't care about anything but the outcome I feel like having. Metagaming indeed, but after you've played the first time, it by default becomes metagaming. And loghain living is a no win for most. I would do just as I wrote. Shove him in prison then grab him for the demon kill and say FU to Morrigan's offer had that been an option and my god I wish that was a mod because it would be the single most popular mod in existence but it is far to complex. Though a few separate mods would be cool. I'd love a mod where you shove him in prison and it's treated like he's dead. Instead of chopping off his head you punch him in the face or something. Then another mod where you tell morrigan no and now Loghain is in your party along with alistair. Loghain is dead and you and alistair live. Ah well, so much for good writing.

 

These threads about him always go sideways because people feel they have to justify their actions more than his given that justifying his actions eventually leads to stupidity in many cases. He was originally slated to be a mind controlled bad guy. There's no way to undo all that they set in motion with set pieces like Ostagar start, assassination attempt (because they weren't going to get rid of acquiring zev) and the attack in the bar in lothering (because they weren't going to get rid of acquiring Leliana) and those things right there paint him into a dark corner but they are set pieces. They could have made you acquire those two by other means but they were scripted with dialogue and cutscenes that were easier to keep than change. It's all down to things like budget and time constraints. If it was already in the game design by the time they chose to not go with indoctrination then that means they have to change the game design - waste of time and money and could trigger more bugs. Even rewriting when it's not part of the game design, before the game is even at that point still is time and time is money. That's why when writing a game where you are giving players choices you really have to have your ideas down and you have to make it look like all options are not just ways to manipulate the game. That's a level of writing that you will never find in ANY game writer as no game writer has ever written at that level. That is writing you would see from the likes of david benioff (game of thrones) or others who have mastered how to set up scenarios where it's believable and works well. And even he is working of already written material but he has to choose what goes in and what stays out because those books are so massive and in choosing it has to still work cohesively. Gaider might be a pretty good writer but he is no Benioff. He was fine with all the horrible ways landsmeet screws up the game and all the lack of sense or logic that we have once we hit it. Any writer worth their salt would have been all over making the situation around the DR and the killing/not conscripting loghain look less like a contrived manipulation. But the DR was a set piece. Loghain was a manipulation. Alistairs response was a manipulation. They wanted that baby option though in retrospect, given it was a choice and nothing in future games thus far depends on it, it just shows they were more married to the idea of it and forcing players into a corner than anything else or else we learn about the death issue at the landsmeet and move on from there.


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#429
Douxdel
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 07:59

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I hate killing him in front of his daughter like that, but the only other option is a pat on the back and a free pass for a multitude of crimes I feel does warrant punishment. 

 

So he dies, every time in my games.

 

I love the fact I kill him in front of his daughter...I just wish my character doesn't give him time to TALK.  Dear gods, the man likes to hear his own voice!  Then again, I don't have much sympathy for Anora either given that it feels like much of what you go through before the Landsmeet has been set up not only by Loghain but by Anora as well (she is her father's daughter).  Oh, and WHY DOESN'T THE WARDEN HAVE A SAY IN WHAT TO DO WITH ANORA AFTER ALISTAIR ASSUMES THE THRONE!  Argh...everyone is so quick to turn to the warden for help and advice and even accepts a Human Noble when its like "Yup, plop Alistair on the throne and I'll rule beside him as his puppeteer" and no one bats an eyelash....but then its like, Anora doesn't swear fealty and its like "Oh well, I guess we should lock her in the tower..."

 

Nooo!!!!!  I JUST CHOPPED HER FATHER'S HEAD OFF!!!  LET ME DO A TWO FOR ONE!!!! T_T  COME ON!!  -sighs-  At least Anora is infertile (at least for all we know...or just a prude).  Sorry for all my tangents. ^-^''  I tend to ramble...


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#430
sylvanaerie
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 08:02

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At least they won't cram the baby on us as canon.  (So far anyway).  Gaider has said it's not and so far he's sticking to his guns.  Since I have a few US endings, this is a good thing.


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#431
sylvanaerie
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 08:04

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I love the fact I kill him in front of his daughter...I just wish my character doesn't give him time to TALK.  Dear gods, the man likes to hear his own voice!  Then again, I don't have much sympathy for Anora either given that it feels like much of what you go through before the Landsmeet has been set up not only by Loghain but by Anora as well (she is her father's daughter).  Oh, and WHY DOESN'T THE WARDEN HAVE A SAY IN WHAT TO DO WITH ANORA AFTER ALISTAIR ASSUMES THE THRONE!  Argh...everyone is so quick to turn to the warden for help and advice and even accepts a Human Noble when its like "Yup, plop Alistair on the throne and I'll rule beside him as his puppeteer" and no one bats an eyelash....but then its like, Anora doesn't swear fealty and its like "Oh well, I guess we should lock her in the tower..."

 

Nooo!!!!!  I JUST CHOPPED HER FATHER'S HEAD OFF!!!  LET ME DO A TWO FOR ONE!!!! T_T  COME ON!!  -sighs-  At least Anora is infertile (at least for all we know...or just a prude).  Sorry for all my tangents. ^-^''  I tend to ramble...

 

I'm okay with Anora, she's not one of my favorite people in the game, but I've learned to like her well enough playing a HNM who becomes King Consort with her.  Since I'm female I know how I'd feel if I saw my own father beheaded right in front of me, spraying his blood on my face and I can relate to how awful that must be.  So yea, I kill him but killing him in front of his child (even an adult child) is the only aspect of it I hate.  And the voice actress does such a fine job of portraying her loss.  That "Father..." line...cuts me every time.  But still doesn't stop me.

 

And RPing someone unable to do that to her is the only way I was able to finally recruit the bastard and see his content at the end.

 

Aside from the whole pigeon-holed choices.  I hate that more.


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#432
Xetykins
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 08:37

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People rationalize the actions Loghain took. It's not the same thing as defending slavery or what not. Nothing crazy about at all.I can understand the decisions Loghain made, but still realize he went too far. What you have to decide is whether the actions he took warrant his death, and more often than not, I don't think his actions warrant that.
 
Or, more to the point, there are extenuating circumstances like the Blight that are important to sparing his life.


What more appalling things that could top the things he has already done to warrant execution? In the alienage alone they even sold valendrian to those magisters and he was oooold. I guess life is life and can fuel blood magic. So any life including the children I suspect.

I get that you understand him. I understand him too reading the books. And understand his regrets from watching youtube. But it still does not excuse what he has done, and should not get free pass. Because the families of those tortured nobles, and those elves, and ostagar deserves justice. And since you are pretty much in the position to give that to them in this game, so I give it.

Yes there is a blight and need more wardens but me and my companions has done marvelously so far so why do we need Loghain now?

And are we still going to have these debates if it was someone else and not Loghain? I think not.
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#433
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 09:06

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What more appalling things that could top the things he has already done to warrant execution? In the alienage alone they even sold valendrian to those magisters and he was oooold. I guess life is life and can fuel blood magic. So any life including the children I suspect.

I get that you understand him. I understand him too reading the books. And understand his regrets from watching youtube. But it still does not excuse what he has done, and should not get free pass. Because the families of those tortured nobles, and those elves, and ostagar deserves justice. And since you are pretty much in the position to give that to them in this game, so I give it.

Yes there is a blight and need more wardens but me and my companions has done marvelously so far so why do we need Loghain now?

And are we still going to have these debates if it was someone else and not Loghain? I think not.

 

I think it really just keeps coming down to the fact that there is no imprison option or one where it doesn't seem like you are giving him a free pass for all his actions because there are so few, very few people that entirely excuse everything he has done (and they are just not people we can even reason with because to excuse everything is illogical as the slave trade alone should warrant some kind of punishment and it's the one thing we have him dead to rights on aside from bounty on us and the assassin which both seem to be still debated as if it was not his doing).

 

So it always boils down to justification for what we the player do rather than what he has done. People will defend their actions and choices. Rarely will people just come out and say 'I save him because he interests me more than Alistair' or I hate Alistair or I don't want to kill him so I'll just make him a warden and I am fairly sure that is really what it is. Or maybe people save him because they see the hero he was and see that at his core there is his belief that he is protecting ferelden. I can get on board with that. If people would just say that rather than make all the irrational arguments and dismissals that they do... you could understand why. Those are all good reasons as they make sense from a player point of view if that is how you are playing it but some come across as a bit less kind or a bit more cold - like hating alistair or because he's an interesting character as it does excuse his actions. But his there is no middle ground. Death or no. So this debate will never ever ever be anything but siding for or against because there is no middle ground to be had.


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#434
Monica21
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 09:29

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I think it really just keeps coming down to the fact that there is no imprison option or one where it doesn't seem like you are giving him a free pass for all his actions because there are so few, very few people that entirely excuse everything he has done (and they are just not people we can even reason with because to excuse everything is illogical as the slave trade alone should warrant some kind of punishment and it's the one thing we have him dead to rights on aside from bounty on us and the assassin which both seem to be still debated as if it was not his doing).

 

So it always boils down to justification for what we the player do rather than what he has done. People will defend their actions and choices. Rarely will people just come out and say 'I save him because he interests me more than Alistair' or I hate Alistair or I don't want to kill him so I'll just make him a warden and I am fairly sure that is really what it is. Or maybe people save him because they see the hero he was and see that at his core there is his belief that he is protecting ferelden. I can get on board with that. If people would just say that rather than make all the irrational arguments and dismissals that they do... you could understand why. Those are all good reasons as they make sense from a player point of view if that is how you are playing it but some come across as a bit less kind or a bit more cold - like hating alistair or because he's an interesting character as it does excuse his actions. But his there is no middle ground. Death or no. So this debate will never ever ever be anything but siding for or against because there is no middle ground to be had.

It also never comes down to, "I want to marry Alistair" now does it?


#435
theskymoves
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 09:52

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It also never comes down to, "I want to marry Alistair" now does it?

 

That's not a wrong, "bad", or invalid reason. No more than the people whose reason for tossing Alistair is to take Loghain back to camp so they can moon over his voice and and sex him up with the Loggy romance mod.  :rolleyes:


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#436
Althix
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 09:58

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I sometimes wonder if anyone can formulate a persuasive argument for sparing/recruiting Loghain that does not include any of the following:

sure. none of his crimes are death worthy. that's it. simple.

 

on a personal side of that, i wouldn't spared Loghain in normal circumstances. Mercy is not the way of Chaos. But from a practical view on things, Loghain have a greater value than Alistair in every aspect possible(from a stat line to his lore, character and dialogues).*also practicality is the only reason why Zevran survived his ambush as well, because i still had use for him.*

 

*when you spare Loghain, Eamon or Teagan will not say a word. It's only Alistair who is crying. So you get the idea with what kind of people Warden do business. Also even if you slay Loghain, his death have close to no effect on Anora.*


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#437
Monica21
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 09:59

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That's not a wrong, "bad", or invalid reason. No more than the people whose reason for tossing Alistair is to take Loghain back to camp so they can moon over his voice and and sex him up with the Loggy romance mod.  :rolleyes:

It's an irrational reason. And yes, it actually is bad and invalid. If the only way a Warden can marry Alistair is through Loghain's death, then that's irrational. It also leads to player to failing to see any reason behind sparing Loghain. It leads the player through either quite the series of mental gymnastics or failing to choose to think about Loghain's characterization and why he is the way he is. Loghain is either, "but, but, but" or a stupid, mustache-twirling villain for the sake of player conscience.


#438
Ryzaki
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:00

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That's not a wrong, "bad", or invalid reason. No more than the people whose reason for tossing Alistair is to take Loghain back to camp so they can moon over his voice and and sex him up with the Loggy romance mod.  :rolleyes:

 

Wait what? That exists? :blink: I thought it was a joke...Just some replaced images with Loghain instead of Alistair and you're telling me it's a full blown mod?


#439
Steelcan
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:09

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Wait what? That exists? :blink: I thought it was a joke...Just some replaced images with Loghain instead of Alistair and you're telling me it's a full blown mod?

 

Are you surprised?


#440
theskymoves
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:10

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Wait what? That exists? :blink: I thought it was a joke...Just some replaced images with Loghain instead of Alistair and you're telling me it's a full blown mod?

 

One Loghain romance mod and another different Loghain romance mod.


#441
theskymoves
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:14

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It's an irrational reason. And yes, it actually is bad and invalid. If the only way a Warden can marry Alistair is through Loghain's death, then that's irrational. It also leads to player to failing to see any reason behind sparing Loghain. It leads the player through either quite the series of mental gymnastics or failing to choose to think about Loghain's characterization and why he is the way he is. Loghain is either, "but, but, but" or a stupid, mustache-twirling villain for the sake of player conscience.

 

What is irrational is the prevailing idea that any player is obligated to look for reasons to spare Loghain, or think about his characterization or "why he is the way he is". No player has any obligation beyond playing their game in a way that makes them happy.


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#442
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:19

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Velanna really isn’t a good choice for the Wardens. Heaven help them if she moved up in management. She is a mass murderer that has killed civilians over multiple occasions. Truly thinking this out she doesn’t make sense to bring in. Having said this she is less dangerous than Loghain. She just doesn’t have his brains (even her people can’t stand her).

 

 

I recruit Velanna because her need to connect with her sister. The tragedy there is kind of similar to a Tamlen situation if you're Dalish. To me, it has nothing to do with Wardens. That just happens to be a convenient place for her to be. My real reasons are personal. That, and I have no place to speak, since I've killed innocent humans too. I use the word "innocent" loosely though. She uses it a little more loosely. Just about everyone is guilty in her eyes. Heh


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#443
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:23

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This is what I mean about people defending Loghain just fall into the crazy category after a while. In this thread we've already had the defending of slavery. Now this. What else will people justify in order to get behind the guy who was MEANT to behave as a bad guy but they changed it when they decided they didn't want him indoctrinated.

 

He was hardly meant as the "bad guy". Not in the novels, not in DAO. I think the writers subverted a lot of old good/bad tropes with DAO, even though it looks like a typical fantasy game. It's a little more complicated than usual.


#444
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:24

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I recruit Velanna because her own need to connect with her sister. The tragedy there is kind of similar to a Tamlen situation if you're Dalish. To me, it has nothing to do with Wardens. That just happens to be a conveniently place for her to be. My real reasons are personal. That, and I have no place to speak, since I've killed innocent humans too. I use the word "innocent" loosely though. She uses it a little more loosely. Just about everyone is guilty in her eyes. Heh

 

She annoys me. I want to do a game where I basically have Nate as my only companion. Maybe Anders if I need him. But I like the idea of just Nate. I've been running with just Alistair so to not have to hear Morrigan. It's kind of fun just the two of us especially if you are in romance with him. I have to remember to bring wynne or morrigan with me though for the fade at redcliffe because that was a nuisance to go back and get them.

 

I almost never used Valenna after I got her. She was too bitchy and reminded me of Morrigan in some ways. I leave annoying ones for the end to save the vigil. For my final I'll take Nate and maybe anders or oghren.


#445
Xetykins
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:25

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That's not a wrong, "bad", or invalid reason. No more than the people whose reason for tossing Alistair is to take Loghain back to camp so they can moon over his voice and and sex him up with the Loggy romance mod.  :rolleyes:


Hope that was a joke!

#446
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:26

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She annoys me. I want to do a game where I basically have Nate as my only companion. Maybe Anders if I need him. But I like the idea of just Nate. I've been running with just Alistair so to not have to hear Morrigan. It's kind of fun just the two of us especially if you are in romance with him. I have to remember to bring wynne or morrigan with me though for the fade at redcliffe because that was a nuisance to go back and get them.

 

I almost never used Valenna after I got her. She was too bitchy and reminded me of Morrigan in some ways. I leave annoying ones for the end to save the vigil. For my final I'll take Nate and maybe anders or oghren.

 

I don't hate any of the Awakening characters. All better than DAO imo.


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#447
Ryzaki
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:26

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Are you surprised?

 

A little bit yeah. I thought it'd be a spoof mod. Not a serious one.

 

 

THERE'S MORE THAN ONE? *cringes*


#448
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:28

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He was hardly meant as the "bad guy". Not in the novels, not in DAO. I think the writers subverted a lot of old good/bad tropes with DAO, even though it looks like a typical fantasy game. It's a little more complicated than usual.

 

Oh come on streetmagic. Read my full posts. I meant bad guy as in doing bad things because he was indoctrinated. Actually, that would have meant he was a good guy whose will was taken from him. Actually as much as I do find his complexity interesting, I think I kind of would have liked to see that version of him. Yeah, we're all done with indoctrination after mass effect series, but it doesn't discount that it would have been fascinating if it were well written to see what he was like doing the archdemon's will and even if there was some point where this was realized, especially if it was realized by him and how he responded. I really would have loved to see him as the ideal general he could have been, to see him as that character and what things they would have done to make him complex as a good guy.


#449
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:28

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Also, Velanna is nothing like Morrigan to me. It's like fire and ice. One hot, one cold. One is passionate and a bit irrational, and does crazy things out of a need to fight for her people. The other only cares about herself and her "surival at all costs" philosophy, but uses a cold sense of logic to justify all of it. Not emotions.


#450
Ryzaki
Posté 08 avril 2014 - 10:32

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What is irrational is the prevailing idea that any player is obligated to look for reasons to spare Loghain, or think about his characterization or "why he is the way he is". No player has any obligation beyond playing their game in a way that makes them happy.

 

aww I ran out of likes :(

 

 

Also Velanna? You mean that smear on the ground? Even my CE wouldn't recruit that bag full of crazy. Zevran at least cracked a few jokes and provided some levity. She doesn't even do that much.


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