3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

No, it isn't. "Rational" is about choosing means that are proportionate and adequate for reaching your goals, whatever those might happen to be.

And your goal is to stop the Blight. You've got Riordan telling you that there are compelling reasons to spare Loghain in one ear and Alistair demanding his head in the other. It's been awhile since I've played through the Landsmeet, but Alistair threatens to leave, but doesn't actually leave until you make the decision to spare him. I think you can accidentally spare Loghain while still thinking that you can talk Alistair down.

 

So yes, as far as reaching your goals go, which have nothing to do with getting vengeance for Alistair, it makes much more sense to spare Loghain if what you think you're getting is four Wardens instead of three.

[Chashan]

I know right now I am not letting him live but I find myself getting bored with the Alistair romance and I feel myself getting ready to go to the dark side. I was thinking a dalish scout elf but really they would kill him for enslaving elves. I'm not really into the dwarves. So I have to have a damn good reason for a mage or especially a cousland to spare him. The problem for me is that I have yet find a character who could justify not killing Loghain especially against Alistair because as much as I can play a character who might use Alistair or find him annoying, I don't feel any character could be okay with trading Alistair for Loghain. As annoying as Alistair is, he's still a decent guy. I know people hate him but I've yet to find a single reason to trade him for Loghain. Even if I loathe the wardens and want them to cease to exist for cursing people with the blight through lies and manipulations I don't feel that there is a single character I could play that would logically be able to pull it off. Furthest I could get is Alistair is a brainwashed dope who whines a lot and can be a bit pathetic at times, but he's not a bad guy. I guess if I could run a male cousland I would let him live for a power grab at the throne but I'm not into playing a male when I can play females. That's part of the problem. The design of the choices is such that playing a female sort of tilts you away from Loghain or at least it does for me. For a male there's grabbing for Anora and not pissing her off with her dad and saying screw it to alistair because he's in the way but the female gains nothing. There is no actual motivation to let him live. If I want the thone, I get it and use Alistair as my puppet (screw what the slides say... I brought us victory against the blight, I avenged my family and I was raised by Bryce Cousland. I can damn well make Alistair my puppet king. And actually, they really should have slides for that... can I change the slides?)

 

Elves aren't a single entity, something pointed out in the other thread about the deals magister Caladrius offers. Remember, Dalish do look down upon their "flat-ear" urban brethren, despite them being of the same race.

 

Mages are a special case in and of themselves, so the mage origin PC, even the elven one, may have no empathy for the enslaved elves.

Couslands are the toughest case, it's true, given that they are invariably put at odds with Loghain's accomplice, Howe.

 

Good thing you are pointing out the power-politcking reasons as for why fémme human Wardens may wish to hold on to 'stair. Myself, I feel content that my Warden missies can witness the rise of a "virgin" Queen to power, brought about through their actions.

[Cobra's_back]

Elves aren't a single entity, something pointed out in the other thread about the deals magister Caladrius offers. Remember, Dalish do look down upon their "flat-ear" urban brethren, despite them being of the same race.

 

Mages are a special case in and of themselves, so the mage origin PC, even the elven one, may have no empathy for the enslaved elves.

Couslands are the toughest case, it's true, given that they are invariably put at odds with Loghain's accomplice, Howe.

 

Good thing you are pointing out the power-politcking reasons as for why fémme human Wardens may wish to hold on to 'stair. Myself, I feel content that my Warden missies can witness the rise of a "virgin" Queen to power, brought about through their actions.

 

I think you put it best. Power-politicking to some degree is ingrained in most of us. I never played the Dalish Elves them seem like losers. They don't know how to win. They whine and complain about their past. They are a dying breed. 

[Cobra's_back]

And your goal is to stop the Blight. You've got Riordan telling you that there are compelling reasons to spare Loghain in one ear and Alistair demanding his head in the other. It's been awhile since I've played through the Landsmeet, but Alistair threatens to leave, but doesn't actually leave until you make the decision to spare him. I think you can accidentally spare Loghain while still thinking that you can talk Alistair down.

 

So yes, as far as reaching your goals go, which have nothing to do with getting vengeance for Alistair, it makes much more sense to spare Loghain if what you think you're getting is four Wardens instead of three.

 

Not if you don't want a dictator to live and you want a strong message that states all slavers will die. Remember you don't know about the killing blow.

 

The confusion stems from the silly game mechanics. Is it logical you can only have Loghain or Alistair? If you knew how the game ended you still only get one or the other. Things would probably play differently for some if you could have had both. This may not be the case for CE who clearly wants to state death to all slavers and no chance for honor to any slaver. Someone put it best the CE would want the extinction of all slavers.

[Cobra's_back]

It isn't about complaining. It's about remembering what little is left. That ultimately sums up the role of the "keeper", but it falls on all the clan members. To keep/remember lost lore. It's not like they're complaining about random stuff, or how their girlfriends cheated or something. It's cultural archiving, if you will. Storytelling is the usual way groups do this.

 

As for winning, they don't try to win because they already lost multiple times.. utterly. At this point, the best one can hope for is to wander or live as a city elf. They prefer wandering and think the cities stink.

 

You don't have to become a part of the city. You don't have to lose your history. To survive as a nation you have to find a way to acquire allies and do business with foreign nations. 

[Cobra's_back]

Dalish are open to welcoming back City Elves, but the Dalish origin itself gives you ammunition for personal disgust. If you feel like roleplaying like that. Your mother and father were killed by both humans and city elves. Then your second experience of a City Elf is Zevran. Willing to ambush you, grouped with Shem, just like the ones who killed your parents. Considering that you just got out of the woods and have little experience with society, you're off to a bad impression of everyone, if you think about it.

 

Or you can just be another garden variety RPG saint and see the best in everything. That always works.

 

Or you can be a smart intelligent warden groom your team for peak performance as you are influencing the public around you. Just to give it a real world favor.

[Jaison1986]

Not if you don't want a dictator to live and you want a strong message that states all slavers will die. Remember you don't know about the killing blow.

 

The confusion stems from the silly game mechanics. Is it logical you can only have Loghain or Alistair? If you knew how the game ended you still only get one or the other. Things would probably play differently for some if you could have had both. This may not be the case for CE who clearly wants to state death to all slavers and no chance for honor to any slaver. Someone put it best the CE would want the extinction of all slavers.

 

The sad thing is that people at the landsmeet don't really care about Loghain having the elves sold into slavery (apart from the warden him/herself perhaps), There is that one guy saying "What's this? There is no slavery in Ferelden!", but that was the only reaction. Calling out Loghain for selling elfs don't win the favor of any noble, in the same way as if you make an persuasive speech, acuse Loghain of torturing nobles, etc. Being an elf at the landsmeet  even cause some nobles saying an elf have no say in there. Even Alistair and Eamon don't seem to give it much thought. Eamon is more interested in using it against Loghain then actually feeling bad about it, wereas Alistair never uses the slavery issue as reasons to want Loghain dead. The only thing that bothers him seems to be the Ostagar thing in fact.

[DarthGizka]

That's my usual habit, but I'm sick of it. Sick of everything going right. It's always the same trope/rpg archetype: The peak performance hero. Every RPG has a way of having this same perfect character popping up everytime, no matter the setting or storyline.

 

You need a serious dose of Space Quest.

[Cobra's_back]

Which is what happens if you play the game. It's not like everything is in a static state. The Warden creates ripple effects on many cultures, for example, and Lanaya plays her part for the Dalish. Who knows what becomes of that.

 

Or you could just wipe out the clans in both games, thinking they don't deserve anything to begin with. Perhaps your reasoning is they might not deserve anything for not trying hard enough on their own.

 

I never wipe them out. I'm a strong believer of reaching out and breaking down barriers. This to me would be a quality of a great leader. 

 

"thinking they don't deserve anything to begin with" This would make me a dictator. I would never consider it. I don't see dictators as great leaders.

[Cobra's_back]

The sad thing is that people at the landsmeet don't really care about Loghain having the elves sold into slavery (apart from the warden him/herself perhaps), There is that one guy saying "What's this? There is no slavery in Ferelden!", but that was the only reaction. Calling out Loghain for selling elfs don't win the favor of any noble, in the same way as if you make an persuasive speech, acuse Loghain of torturing nobles, etc. Being an elf at the landsmeet  even cause some nobles saying an elf have no say in there. Even Alistair and Eamon don't seem to give it much thought. Eamon is more interested in using it against Loghain then actually feeling bad about it, wereas Alistair never uses the slavery issue as reasons to want Loghain dead. The only thing that bothers him seems to be the Ostagar thing in fact.

 

 

I agree with you Jaison. It is sad. The funny thing is that Alistair is the only one that puts a CE in the council. The CE story made me angry and sick to see what happens to them. 

[DarthGizka]

Not if you don't want a dictator to live and you want a strong message that states all slavers will die. Remember you don't know about the killing blow.

 

... CE who clearly wants to state death to all slavers and no chance for honor to any slaver. Someone put it best the CE would want the extinction of all slavers.

 

As Jaison has pointed out, killing Loghain is not going to accomplish much if you cannot tell people precisely why you are taking Loghain's head off. I'd hand Loghain over to Shianni and let her clan decide whether Loghain should atone by public execution or by serving with the Wardens. That would send a message. Especially if the elves confounded expectation by not opting for a knee-jerk reaction. But of course, the game doesn't let us.

[Cobra's_back]

You're calling them whiners for simply telling stories to each other. How is that reaching out or breaking down barriers? It's like telling families of native americans or the holocaust survivors that they're whiners, simply for remembering, and maintaining their traditions.

 

Other than that, the Dalish keep to themselves, and live off of hunting. They don't really need to conduct business much with people. Nor do they need outside leadership. They have their own leaders. Those keepers who you think just whine about things. 

 

I'd suggest leave them alone or wiping them out, if your perception is not going to get much better.

 

edit: Scratch that. Zathrian is a unique situation. He needed outside leadership, simply to keep his dirty secret. I don't think it's a typical request for most clans though.

 

No I'm not calling them whiners for telling stories to each other. That is not it as all. They are whiners because they don't try to find ways to bridge the gap. There are no successful nations that isolate themselves from all others.

 

"holocaust survivors that they're whiners, simply for remembering" This would be a poor example. Israel is one of the most successful nations. They know how to play the game internationally. They are not whiners. I believe i have said this many times. All nations require rules of engagement and allies. Israel knows this very well.

 

"It's like telling families of native americans". This also doesn't make sense. The American Indians learned our laws and used them against the USA very effectively. They also won Americans over by making us see the wrongs we had committed. They didn't win because of isolation. They found a way to beat us with our own laws. You might want to check back and see that many entered our Universities became very successful lawyers.

[Jaison1986]

As Jaison has pointed out, killing Loghain is not going to accomplish much if you cannot tell people precisely why you are taking Loghain's head off. I'd hand Loghain over to Shianni and let her clan decide whether Loghain should atone by public execution or by serving with the Wardens. That would send a message. Especially if the elves confounded expectation by not opting for a knee-jerk reaction. But of course, the game doesn't let us.

 

Pretty much this. You can have Loghain executed for practicing slavery. But you will be the only one that did it for that reason. Everyone else in Ferelden will simply assume you killed him for treason and war crimes, while they pretty much ignore the slavery issue because they don't really care about it.

[Cobra's_back]

As Jaison has pointed out, killing Loghain is not going to accomplish much if you cannot tell people precisely why you are taking Loghain's head off. I'd hand Loghain over to Shianni and let her clan decide whether Loghain should atone by public execution or by serving with the Wardens. That would send a message. Especially if the elves confounded expectation by not opting for a knee-jerk reaction. But of course, the game doesn't let us.

 

Actually, If you read the ending for Alistair as king alone, things do change. I stated this before. It was the best ending for the CE. They get someone in Alistair's council. There is no riot in the Alienage with Alistair as King. There is with Anora as Queen.

[Cobra's_back]

Pretty much this. You can have Loghain executed for practicing slavery. But you will be the only one that did it for that reason. Everyone else in Ferelden will simply assume you killed him for treason and war crimes, while they pretty much ignore the slavery issue because they don't really care about it.

 

Make Alistair king alone and then make Anora queen alone then look at the ending. I guess he did care if he put someone in his council.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, If you read the ending for Alistair as king alone, things do change. I stated this before. It was the best ending for the CE. They get someone in Alistair's council. There is no riot in the Alienage with Alistair as King. There is with Anora as Queen.

Though I think Alistair brings her around if they're married, which is part of the reason I like that ending so much. International Competence meets PR Wonderboy.

[Cobra's_back]

There isn't a strong need to bridge the gap at this point. They've found a life by hunting and trading with other clans.

 

Hell.. In some ways, I envy people like this. Life should be that simple.

 

Besides that, they're not bandits or thieves or waging wars. There's no pressing need for humans to confront them or talk. The only reason humans should talk is to apologize for their Exalted March and not following their own Andraste's path. The burden is not on the elves, religiously speaking. The humans have their heads so far up their asses that they've wiped out Shartan from their chant and even erase his elf ears in paintings. It's ridiculous.

 

I see what you mean. I don't agree but I understand.