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[sylvanaerie]

Well, it's manipulation. But then again, it's necessary if the person can be counted on. Wynne would walk away under the right circumstances. Leliana would too. Their beliefs about ashes or saving a few possibly gone bad mages are bigger than saving Thedas or Ferelden. Everyone one of them has a breaking point as far as I can see, which is pretty true in real life as well and why they need to be manipulated. People are just too damn petty. If you play it wrong you could end up with some of your best party leaving and that Cousland knew that people could abandon her when things got rough. She just watched full out betrayal by a supposed friend. So really it's not disingenuous. It's being smart and wise and knowing people can be petty and not always trusted to see the greater good. She wouldn't have to nod and agree and be polite all the time if people were capable of being adults, but generally they are not.

 

My female Amell is this way.  Manipulative, and at times pragmatic (or lazy depending on your PoV) since she will sometimes take 'short cuts' to achieve her goals.  She smiled, nodded at Wynne despite she had more in common with Morrigan (though she didn't care for Morrigan much either, finding in her a rival).  Same with Leliana, being an anti-chantry type, she had just as many troubles with her.  The only one she felt she could get along with was Zevran because he was (if she fine tuned her bullshit-ometer) pretty straightforward with her.  

 

She romanced Alistair once she found out about the whole "king" thing and put him on the throne, acing Eamon out as Chancellor and being his Mistress so she had not only an official advisory position, but an intimate one too to control him.  I'd have left him unhardened, but I can't do that to him OR Ferelden, and despite herself she did care about him.

[Xilizhra]

That's all true, but I don't think "peak performance" is much of a role. Or at the very least, it's a bland Mary Sue or boy scout trope. In the abstract sense, I already understand the role too much to want to roleplay it.

 

I don't necessarily want anti-heroes or bastards either, mind you. But even the most appealing heroic stories of our world had failures, tragedies, mistrust, and delusion in them. Joan of Arc, King Arthur and Lancelot, Abe Lincoln's politicking and dilly-dallying before he gave into the abolitionists, etc...Some might be fictional, some real, but life is full of conflict, bias, and imperfection. That's what we create gods for. To be what we aren't.

 

Well, the Greeks didn't do that, I guess. Their gods were bastards too.

Er? Mass Effect has hundreds if not thousands of planets get nommed by the Reapers; Shepard hardly makes things perfect. And DA has no shortage of crap either, regardless of how well you play. Peak performance is nothing more than just doing your best, and plenty of conflict and imperfection show up even in those playthroughs.

[Ryzaki]

One of the few times I find myself agreeing with Xili. No matter how nice you are you can't save Shianni completely, you can't give the dwarves a non douchecanoe or weak king, you can't save everyone (even in teh case of the elves I believe the only way for elf dude to be reunited with his wife is if you side with the wolves and not meet her at all), the PC's slowly turning into a ghoul, you either do the DR or have a fellow GW die to end it. Just because the PC can carve out some light doesn't mean that's all there is.

[Xilizhra]

One of the few times I find myself agreeing with Xili. No matter how nice you are you can't save Shianni completely, you can't give the dwarves a non douchecanoe or weak king, you can't save everyone (even in teh case of the elves I believe the only way for elf dude to be reunited with his wife is if you side with the wolves and not meet her at all), the PC's slowly turning into a ghoul, you either do the DR or have a fellow GW die to end it. Just because the PC can carve out some light doesn't mean that's all there is.

Well, my PC won't be slowly turning into a ghoul; I have every intention of replicating Avernus' magic to delay it.

[Aimi]

Yeah, even Wardens that manage to save as many people as they can still can't stop the Battle of Ostagar. They can't keep the Tevinter slavers from making off with plenty of alienage elves before the rest are rescued. They can't do anything about the smuta that Loghain presides over until the Landsmeet. They can't prevent the Circle mages from being decimated by abominations, even if they forestall a full Rite of Annulment. They can't stop the darkspawn from rampaging all over Lothering and the Bannorn. Even the final victory at Denerim is bloody (and incomplete, considering the storyline of Awakening springs from the large numbers of spawn that got "knocked loose" from the main horde).

I also disagree with the characterization of Lincoln's policy up to late 1862/early 1863 as "dilly-dallying", but that is neither here nor there.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, my PC won't be slowly turning into a ghoul; I have every intention of replicating Avernus' magic to delay it.

Is he not slowly turning into a ghoul at all, or is he just successfully drawing the process out for longer than he'd otherwise live for? Don't get me wrong, either's nice, but there's some degree of difference between not slowly turning into a ghoul and turning into a ghoul really slowly.

 

Also, I remember a line by Avernus in response to the question "Are you possessed?" Said line is "Ah, you've met dear old Sophia, have you? My longevity (I don't remember the exact word he uses here) comes from a similar source [in context, seems to mean "to the demon"] but my mind and my volition remain intact." I take that to mean that the magic in question uses something that can think for itself. There are very few settings in which that's safe, and this is one of the ones where it is the least so.

[Xilizhra]

Is he not slowly turning into a ghoul at all, or is he just successfully drawing the process out for longer than he'd otherwise live for? Don't get me wrong, either's nice, but there's some degree of difference between not slowly turning into a ghoul and turning into a ghoul really slowly.

 

Also, I remember a line by Avernus in response to the question "Are you possessed?" Said line is "Ah, you've met dear old Sophia, have you? My longevity (I don't remember the exact word he uses here) comes from a similar source [in context, seems to mean "to the demon"] but my mind and my volition remain intact." I take that to mean that the magic in question uses something that can think for itself. There are very few settings in which that's safe, and this is one of the ones where it is the least so.

Oh, to be sure, it's extremely so, but he could choose to die of old age at any point to forestall it.

 

I also am fairly sure he's not possessed... or, if he is, it's controlled enough for him to have kept his mind perfectly intact for centuries, so it would seem safe enough to me.

[Aimi]

Which is kind of my point. I don't really want to "play" anything. When I think like that, it's easy to just game the system. Especially after years of familarity with DAO at this point. I want to think of it more as a stage. Not a game. And I want to think of the dialogue options as all equally valid, depending on character and standpoint. I don't want to view dialogue like a "quiz", where there's an optimal answer, and I get a high score at the end. I want to forget about all of that and just try to immerse myself in different characters.

So you want choices without consequences?

[Ryzaki]

THIS 100%

 

The ending in and of itself is about as bleak as it gets really when you stop to think about it. Screw Morrigan and get some freaky old god baby, sacrifice yourself or alistair or loghain. That's basically a no win no matter how you look at it. Sure I could marry Alistair or run off with him and rebuild the GW, but those are the best two option for me as a female player romancing him. But we're both still becoming ghouls and will probably at the same time head to orzammar to die. And there's going to be that old god baby that will be who knows what by that time.

 

Fact is there is no truly happy ending in this game. Just different levels of bleak.

 

Heh I admit the second time I did the DR ending (with my female character who was a cousland) I thought how bummed she was that she was pratically infertile. She couldn't continue her family line and even if she did somehow get pregnant she wouldn't live long enough to see her grandkids grow up. And she had to have Alistair make a child with Morrigan someone who she wouldn't trust with a dog let alone an impressionable infant that he'll never see again. She was also a Queen Cousland. Her vanishing off into the night slide in Awakening made perfect (and sad) sense. She was so guilt ridden and regretful...

 

I picked US four times after that and that's the last time I picked the Queen Cousland ending. NOPE.

[Xilizhra]

Nice wording there btw.. "How well you play".

 

Which is kind of my point. I don't really want to "play" anything. When I think like that, it's easy to just game the system. Especially after years of familarity with DAO at this point. I want to think of it more as a stage. Not a game. And I want to think of the dialogue options as all equally valid, depending on character and standpoint. I don't want to view dialogue like a "quiz", where there's an optimal answer, and I get a high score at the end. I want to forget about all of that and just try to immerse myself in different characters.

Given that you can pump approval by just giving gifts repeatedly, I view it as being as much of a gameplay contrivance as regenerating health and ignore it in roleplaying terms. The fact that my Warden is polite and respectful while still willing to joke around at times means that I would almost never have to say something OOC to keep my approval ratings up with anyone (Zevran is the main, and regrettable, exception in some cases, but I've worked out how my thought process would go). I tend to just want one story that I see as canon, in the end, and I want to do the best I possibly can because those are the stories I tend to enjoy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh, to be sure, it's extremely so, but he could choose to die of old age at any point to forestall it.

 

I also am fairly sure he's not possessed... or, if he is, it's controlled enough for him to have kept his mind perfectly intact for centuries, so it would seem safe enough to me.

Well, that's the thing I think that line's most likely to mean. As you say, Avernus seems to have hit the jackpot if this is the case. The problem is replicating his result as another mage.

[Xilizhra]

Well, that's the thing I think that line's most likely to mean. As you say, Avernus seems to have hit the jackpot if this is the case. The problem is replicating his result as another mage.

I'd be quite happy to be his apprentice.

[Ryzaki]

Exactly the opposite. How did you even come to this?

 

I'd say I want terrible consequences at times. I play fail characters on purpose just to do so.

 

? You can play fail characters in DAO. ****** people off, don't pick the third options. I do it all the time. (It can be kind of fun too).

 

Or play the character that tries so hard to please people but is a little too fake a little too weak.