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Should Loghain Live or Die?

Débuté par ReD BaKen9 , avril 06 2014 03:58

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#701
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:11

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I'd like more insight on Circle mage social life actually. So far, we don't see much evidence that Circle mages have anything I'd wish. Whether from Anders or Wynne. And there's got to be a reason why so many went batsh*t in both games, delved in blood magic, and caused rebellions. People don't make those kind of  stupid risks for no reason. That's desperation.

 

I could keep to myself for awhile, and enjoy reading and being lazy.. but it takes a certain personality type to really enjoy it full time.


#702
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:15

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Nothing I want to kill her over. I just entertain the idea. She's a stranger who crowns herself moral advisor right away, but all she does is repeat children's stories and naive ideals. She expects you to break romances with other characters.. for whatever reason. I guess she thinks you're supposed to be a Warrior monk who doesn't care about enjoying life. She doesn't know anything about the Wardens, but wants to "thank" me for sacrificing so much for the "rest of us". Something about that really gets me. That there are people like her who expect you to give up everything and sacrifice for them.

 

It's one thing to sacrifice and give things up of your own will. Another to have it expected. lol

 

The main problem with wynne beyond the preachy brainwashed factor and being an overall idiot (truly meaning stupid person here) is that they use her as some sort of font of wisdom to foreshadow things but it's done with such a heavy hand (god I wish there was a better term for what I'm saying) that it ceases to have the kind of quality well done foreshadowing has - that sort of artful feel where it almost made you pause but it was so subtle that in thinking back you see it was there and go 'ahhhh' but at the time, it was something that might have struck you odd but not enough to really show you where things were headed. Those foreshadows are very well done. Here they slap you in the face with it in a very amateur way. Reminds me of the first writing class I took. Most were great at making things obvious and in your face, going to extremes to make points, creating contrived situations to suit their needs as to what they wanted or wished to create. It was painful having to sit and listen to them read their stuff. And that is what you see all over the place in DAO. I originally just thought it was where the landsmeet fell apart but now that I just did a city elf opening my stance has changed because I can see that this is really all over the place in the writing. Got me thinking about Wynne as well. People can worship Gaider as some kind of God, but while I will give him credit for the overall story ideas as the story in and of itself shows talent in creating a fantasy world, the writing of scenes and situations, the dialogues, and the way the choices box you in as you move forward (with all sorts of arbitrary rules that govern them) are some of the worst writing I've seen in ... two decades. I don't know where they pulled him from but my god, take a few writing class.


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#703
Ryzaki
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:18

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Well, quite. Nominally avoiding spoilers I suppose, not too worried about picking some up if it finds me some useful information / stuff to grumble about. Anyway I'm taking a break now from having my arse kicked by the Archdemon.

 

XD

 

It usually helps to have a rogue. They can fix the ballista. If it jams.

 

Edited for proper word XD


Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 avril 2014 - 12:46 .

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#704
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:21

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People can worship Gaider as some kind of God, but while I will give him credit for the overall story ideas as the story in and of itself shows talent in creating a fantasy world, the writing itself of scenes and situations, the dialogues, and the way the choices box you into as you keep going (with all sorts of arbitrary rules that govern them) are some of the worst writing I've seen in ... two decades. I don't know where they pulled him from but my god, take a few writing class.

 

I know what you mean about the heavy-handedness.

 

I forgive it because I like the setting (plus, I just like fantasy games anyways.. so that's a free pass). Gaider still deserves a lot of credit.. he created a lot of the lore and was the one tasked with first creating the setting. From what I understand, he wanted to make it a place with many possible stories. Like you could just pick different parts on the Thedas map and find something to work with.

 

It's just that I don't like the Warden story all that much. DAO lives up to it's name in the sense that it makes a good intro to the Dragon Age universe and you explore different "origins" in the world, but the plot and themes of the Wardens annoys me (specifically the self-sacrifice themes). Fortunately, we seem to be past that now. Hawke opened up the mage/templar angle of the world more, but I think DAI will expand things even further.


#705
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:22

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I'd like more insight on Circle mage social life actually. So far, we don't see much evidence that Circle mages have anything I'd wish. Whether from Anders or Wynne. And there's got to be a reason why so many went batsh*t in both games, delved in blood magic, and caused rebellions. People don't make those kind of  stupid risks for no reason. That's desperation.

 

I could keep to myself for awhile, and enjoy reading and being lazy.. but it takes a certain personality type to really enjoy it full time.

 

Yes, agreed. It was essentially a prison with guards. There was no expansion beyond that really. It runs parallel to the city elves lifestyle. While they are not in a prison and they don't have guards, the same idea of being trapped is used in both cases as it the same concept of being throwaways and not respected as individuals either for being an elf or being a mage. It would have been nice to see it tempered a bit.


#706
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:23

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I know what you mean about the heavy-handedness.

 

I forgive it because I like the setting (plus, I just like fantasy games anyways.. so that's a free pass). Gaider still deserves a lot of credit.. he created a lot of the lore and was the one tasked with first creating the setting. From what I understand, he wanted to make it a place with many possible stories. Like you could just pick different parts on the Thedas map and find something to work with.

 

It's just that I don't like the Warden story all that much. DAO lives up to it's name in the sense that it makes a good intro to the Dragon Age universe and you explore different "origins" in the world, but the plot and themes of the Wardens annoys me (specifically the self-sacrifice themes). Fortunately, we seem to be past that now. Hawke opened up the mage/templar angle of the world more, but I think DAI will expand things even further.

 

I'm in agreement that he deserves a lot of credit. That is what I was saying. But the writing in and of itself outside of the story and the lore has many very weak spots.


#707
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:26

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Speaking of which, I think it's a better IP than Mass Effect. While that has a lot of cool elements, it's all centered on one plot. The Reapers. It doesn't have the same longterm possibiltiies as Dragon Age. If they had Gaider create the setting, it might've been different. I think that's what he brings to the table. He's a world builder.

 

If Dragon Age was conceived the same way, everything would revolve around the darkspawn. Which would suck.


#708
Mike3207
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:34

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I'd like more insight on Circle mage social life actually. So far, we don't see much evidence that Circle mages have anything I'd wish. Whether from Anders or Wynne. And there's got to be a reason why so many went batsh*t in both games, delved in blood magic, and caused rebellions. People don't make those kind of  stupid risks for no reason. That's desperation.

 

I could keep to myself for awhile, and enjoy reading and being lazy.. but it takes a certain personality type to really enjoy it full time.

One thing you might look at DAO fanfiction. It might not give you answers, but it will let you explore ideas on what it might be like.


#709
Althix
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:37

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Bastille

it's ballista.

 

bastille is a fortress or prison.


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#710
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:38

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One thing you might look at DAO fanfiction. It might not give you answers, but it will let you explore ideas on what it might be like.

 

My experience with fanfiction is that it resorts to erotica.

 

And Captain Kirk always shows up at the oddest times.


#711
Ryzaki
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:46

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it's ballista.

 

bastille is a fortress or prison.

 

XD thanks I knew it was wrong but went with the "close enough!" solution.


#712
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:47

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Speaking of which, I think it's a better IP than Mass Effect. While that has a lot of cool elements, it's all centered on one plot. The Reapers. It doesn't have the same longterm possibiltiies as Dragon Age. If they had Gaider create the setting, it might've been different. I think that's what he brings to the table. He's a world builder.

 

If Dragon Age was conceived the same way, everything would revolve around the darkspawn. Which would suck.

 

I don't know. I think they overdid it with the reapers so that whatever they come up with next will be pale in comparison but overall I do agree. However ME is a great universe and I do like it. I just tend to LOVE fantasy much more. I think both universes have merit but in the grand scheme of things, I like the fantasy aspect of DA but a lot of the way things were done leaves much to be desired. If we could take the construct of it and rework it so things weren't as ridiculous in some places and were leaning a tad more toward being balanced in a more skyrim fashion or TES fashion, it would be brilliant. As it is now it go to too many extremes. That makes it weak. Things need to have more balance so it doesn't look like the whole place is filled with crazy and zealots which is kind of how it is now.


#713
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 12:54

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I don't know. I think they overdid it with the reapers so that whatever they come up with next will be pale in comparison but overall I do agree. However ME is a great universe and I do like it. I just tend to LOVE fantasy much more. I think both universes have merit but in the grand scheme of things, I like the fantasy aspect of DA but a lot of the way things were done leaves much to be desired. If we could take the construct of it and rework it so things weren't as ridiculous in some places and were leaning a tad more toward being balanced in a more skyrim fashion or TES fashion, it would be brilliant. As it is now it go to too many extremes. That makes it weak. Things need to have more balance so it doesn't look like the whole place is filled with crazy and zealots which is kind of how it is now.

 

ME is a great universe dragged down by one plot. It has all kinds of potential with political storylines (Cerberus, Thessian and Turian politics/homeworlds, etc), but that's all reduced to side content. It's just Reapers, reapers, reapers. And if there is a reason to interact with those other world elements, it has to be tied to Reapers. And limiting the series to trilogy guaranteed it would emphasize a plot more than world exploration and lore.

 

And then resolving the story in a bombastic Space Jesus sort of way, and hearing Hudson say there won't be any story taking place in the timeline afterwards... well.. I lost my interest then. Shepard becomes the hero to end all heroes. And the Reapers the villains to end all villains. Why bother hearing anything else.. it can't be topped.


#714
Althix
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:00

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 there won't be any story taking place in the timeline afterwards... well.. I lost my interest then. 

say what? Me4 will possibly take place during or before Reapers then? ok lost my interest as well.


#715
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:03

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say what? Me4 will possibly take place during or before Reapers then? ok lost my interest as well.

 

Well he said this at release. Maybe he's rethought it at this point. We'll see, I guess.


#716
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:04

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ME a great universe dragged down by one plot. It has all kinds of potential with political storylines (Cerberus, Thessian and Turian politics/homeworlds, etc), but that's all reduced to side content. It's just Reapers, reapers, reapers. And if there is a reason to interact with those other world elements, it has to be tied to Reapers. And limiting the series to trilogy guaranteed it would emphasize a plot more than world exploration and lore.

 

 I don't think they thought it out fully when they came up with the reapers. They didn't see that long term their little cash cow might die. If they hadn't made them so extreme, other things could be done. Now, I'm not sure what they can do that will save it. I remember someone from BW (I think it was BW) being quoted as saying that they could do a story on Garrus' time in csec- that there were so many possibilities. Now that is one thing I would never buy or play. The sheer I don't give a damn factor alone takes it off the possible games I might play list. But this is how arrogant they became because of their success. They think anything will fly now when really people might get it as a game to play but there are a lot of things that will trouble some like when does it take place (which for RPers rather than gamers, this is an issue as who wants to play a game knowing the reapers will destroy everything - I've seen people turned off this idea) and BW won't even say when. They really screwed themselves.

 

Now with DA - they could evolve it - they haven't boxed themselves in (yet). But some things depend on game play or RPG factor. The RPG factor in DA2 was a major turn in the wrong direction. I played it and found it to be craptastic. They should be measuring themselves by DAO and TES whatever is recent TES - they seem to just keep going more mainstream though which is troubling for RPG fans and at this point, I really have no intention of buying or playing DAI. If I hear great things about it especially regarding RPG elements, then maybe, but I'm not really sure at this point.


#717
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:07

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say what? Me4 will possibly take place during or before Reapers then? ok lost my interest as well.

 

Well they don't say specifically as far as I have read but they have floated some horrible ideas in press release comments. All of which suggest ME3 timeline. So it would ideally have to be ME2 or Post ME time line due to thermal clips. That's a very small time frame. They also talked about Garrus' time at csec being a spin off but these are the ideas this master mind group has. Good thing Drew K got out when he did.


#718
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:08

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I remember someone from BW (I think it was BW) being quoted as saying that they could do a story on Garrus' time in csec- that there were so many possibilities.[ Now that is one thing I would never buy or play. The sheer I don't give a damn factor alone takes it off the possible games I might play list.

 

I know. That's hilarious.


#719
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:10

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I know. That's hilarious.

 

Hilarious and pathetic. They really have convinced themselves that ME is so amazing that people will buy any game with an MEU tag on it. How arrogant.


#720
Riverdaleswhiteflash
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:12

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...this was a joke aimed at Oghren.... Anders says a lot of things usually to rationalize his own deires or to anatognize others. Not a reliable person. Wynne like it or not was always straight with the Warden.

The purpose of the robes, yes. But he did represent the "You know how strict things are in the Circle" thing as an actual fact that even Oghren should know.

 

And I'm not saying Wynne wasn't reliable. What I'm saying is that the wording of Wynne's comment on the subject is a bit ambiguous.


#721
Althix
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:22

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Here is the thing. during or before ME3 events game have no value to me. Because i know how ME3 ends. And this is sad. So i will not be interested in such game. Or i will not be interested in playing Garrus. No reason to play it. none.

 

however BW did well with DA setting. Because each game have a special main hero. Different plots. Kinda fresh.

 

I really want to see Anora, Loghain if possible. Again demonic invasions and all that stuff. However when i saw combat mechanics... yeah. Not very impressed. Had a feeling of redo of DA2 system. But i guess if i want more or less viable combat i must play Dark Souls right?

 

One more thing. DA2 plot is taking place during and after Blight. However you can barely notice this fact. Blight stays in the shadow because Hawke have his/her hands full and that is good.

But you can't really do that with ME game. Because Shepard is too huge as a character, and ending of ME3 will poison prequel or game that will takes place during Reapers invasion.


#722
ShadowLordXII
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 01:23

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I think Word of God confirmed that it wouldn't be happening with Alistair.

 

I actually read that thread and yes, Gaider does say that wardenxwarden can't have children due to the taint. I'd honestly go with the "next-to-impossible" line from the game. Gaider's comments made it sound like the writers just didn't want to put in the work or change in dynamics that having a family would have on the character. Plus, Leliana can turn up alive in DAII even after you killed her in Origins, so WOG only has so much inherent authority before it becomes writer fiat.


#723
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Posté 11 avril 2014 - 02:04

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I actually read that thread and yes, Gaider does say that wardenxwarden can't have children due to the taint. I'd honestly go with the "next-to-impossible" line from the game. Gaider's comments made it sound like the writers just didn't want to put in the work or change in dynamics that having a family would have on the character. Plus, Leliana can turn up alive in DAII even after you killed her in Origins, so WOG only has so much inherent authority before it becomes writer fiat.

 

And since this never comes up until we're dealing with the romance with alistair factor (as far as I remember) then it's just another thing they added in at that point - a reason that will be used to dump HNF if conditions aren't met to keep him from not caring about it. It's reminiscent of the death catch with the archdemon and how we do not find out until we're in Redcliffe again. We don't find out during the landsmeet which would be a logical place to learn about this if alistair doesn't take off loghain's head after the fight.

 

I see it as nonsense thrown in for game mechanics as there is no reason for it to be lore. This stuff was relevant and yet it's kept from you until last minute. Now they're just doing what they want for game mechanics with no real logic behind it. In fact, if you can live for 3 decades then you damn well can have children. Logic there is more flawed. You are strong enough to survive the joining and be a warrior for the grey wardens and live for another 30 years with this taint, but in the first few years you aren't able to produce a child? Makes no sense at all. Really, it just doesn't. It's like asking us to shelve basic common sense, something this game does far too often in my opinion.


#724
Chashan
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 02:24

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And since this never comes up until we're dealing with the romance with alistair factor (as far as I remember) then it's just another thing they added in at that point - a reason that will be used to dump HNF if conditions aren't met to keep him from not caring about it. It's reminiscent of the death catch with the archdemon and how we do not find out until we're in Redcliffe again. We don't find out during the landsmeet which would be a logical place to learn about this if alistair doesn't take off loghain's head after the fight.

 

I see it as nonsense thrown in for game mechanics as there is no reason for it to be lore. This stuff was relevant and yet it's kept from you until last minute. Now they're just doing what they want for game mechanics with no real logic behind it. In fact, if you can live for 3 decades then you damn well can have children. Logic there is more flawed. You are strong enough to survive the joining and be a warrior for the grey wardens and live for another 30 years with this taint, but in the first few years you aren't able to produce a child? Makes no sense at all. Really, it just doesn't. It's like asking us to shelve basic common sense, something this game does far too often in my opinion.

 

While I cannot pin-point it myself, I picked up that 'stair himself mentions the topic in dialogue, well before then. So no, it certainly does not come out of nowhere. Besides, don't forget that Mr Cousland's ticket to the throne, Anora, may very well be barren herself, so no founding a dynastic line for him either. :P

 

Ultimately, sterility does not equal general health, nor are children a necessity for a healthy relationship, are they now. Besides, why the writers themselves would wish to leave themselves some room as to which dynasty may come to rule Ferelden in the future should be quite clear. If the next we directly see of Ferelden will indeed be that far down the line, 30 years is still quite a long time to rule..


#725
Jaison1986
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 02:54

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And since this never comes up until we're dealing with the romance with alistair factor (as far as I remember) then it's just another thing they added in at that point - a reason that will be used to dump HNF if conditions aren't met to keep him from not caring about it. It's reminiscent of the death catch with the archdemon and how we do not find out until we're in Redcliffe again. We don't find out during the landsmeet which would be a logical place to learn about this if alistair doesn't take off loghain's head after the fight.

 

I see it as nonsense thrown in for game mechanics as there is no reason for it to be lore. This stuff was relevant and yet it's kept from you until last minute. Now they're just doing what they want for game mechanics with no real logic behind it. In fact, if you can live for 3 decades then you damn well can have children. Logic there is more flawed. You are strong enough to survive the joining and be a warrior for the grey wardens and live for another 30 years with this taint, but in the first few years you aren't able to produce a child? Makes no sense at all. Really, it just doesn't. It's like asking us to shelve basic common sense, something this game does far too often in my opinion.

 

Alistair says in the game that you and him will likely never have an child because on the taint. I don't see how it's illogical. Apart from Morrigan. We never see any Warden ever have an child after the joining. Just because you survive the joining it doesn't make you extraordinary badass 2.0 by default. You are still tainted and you will still become an ghoul given enough time. I don't get why this is so upseting. This isn't Alistair exclusive issue. Leliana and Zevran likely never will have an child with the warden, nor Anora for the matter. They weren't kidding when they said that you need to sacrifice everything in order to become an warden.


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