Alistair is loyal and dependable but he is too often submissive (as Morrigan often points out). It is this part of his character that particularly annoyed many male players IMHO ...even me, who in most playthroughs kept him in my party. I valued his loyality and honesty more.. Never a romance involved..Yes, he has blind spots but the ones you mentioned aren't really the best examples. Better ones might be him whining about the prince thing and duncan every other conversation then taking off points if you are sick of hearing about it because that's a broken record. Breaking up with him can cost you points and bring you right back to zero even if you are polite about it.
His character is very moral and a good guy/boy scout who was raised by the chantry. He got away from the worst of their brainwashing but he still sees what's good and bad, right and wrong. Honestly, I like that about him. I'd rather have him give me points for doing something that was the less caring choice than someone who disapproves of a moral choice like morrigan.
It seems like men are the ones that most commonly have these problems with him. I am beginning to wonder if that is related to not having a romance with him. Perhaps that causes people to see him differently than someone who he is courting once you reach whatever approval triggers it. I think also because you get more plus point options though if you don't handle it well, you can lose everything and be set back to neutral.
Should Loghain Live or Die?
#751
Posté 11 avril 2014 - 11:31
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Retour en haut
#752
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 12:16
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Well, gee, if you're a dick to someone, they'll be a dick to you. And Eamon was the only family he ever knew so don't be surprised when you kill off one and he flips. Especially using blood magic. Me? I let Isolade die now and I guess I have a bug where he's cool with it which frankly given how he treated her is how he should be after all she did.... but even then, he's a good guy so I can see where he wouldn't be. He learned to understand why Isolade treated him terribly and even justifies her actions... more to his credit I guess. I'd be happy she's dead after all she did.
But again, reacting to someone being an insensitive jerk? Not shocking. I was pretty cold to him and he still romanced him. My elf veered between polite, sarcastic, annoyed, mocking and rude and still managed to have a decent enough score from him to romance him. I was trying to keep him at bay to do the US and it was far harder than I thought. So my feelings on this is that one really has to be a jerk to bring out the bad in him - or be a jerk and a male PC.
I may have been too vague there: by "exorcising Connor the old-fashioned way" I meant that I proceeded to kill him. Having resolved the Circle-situation before Redcliffe to secure what magical support it could still offer against the Blight I saw that as a necessity. Why, you ask? Ignoring meta, it's in such a state of disarray that judging it unable to expend resources and personnel for the matter isn't exactly unfounded. It lost most of its members during Uldred's uprising and who knows how scarce its Lyrium-supplies are at that point. Given this, going straight at the root of Redcliffe's demon infestation seemed only appropriate, and as I said, Isolde's VA, Louiza Patikas, simply does amazing work there. Do experience that and see whether you feel indifferent about Isolde's potential demise afterwards.
I am not so much "shocked" at 'stair's attitude when he's argued with. Rather, he strikes me as the most "loutish" of the companions when it comes to disagreeing with them.
ghostbusters101 wrote...
It was your choice to have this type of relationship. Others have a completely different relationship and reactions. We could be Al's friend and harden him.
I could see that he had empathy for the commoners and elves. David wrote him this way. It didn't surprise me that i like the ending when I picked him as King alone. I saw it as David saying a good King will always question himself. David might have just over did it a bit. You see the same insecurity "I don't want to be King" in Marc.
Frankly, I don't care. I put in the one I want for the ending I seek.
Never claimed otherwise. Ultimately, how the character is received is still up to us players, and obviously that reception will be different. Where you saw promises of a benevolent monarch during the game - which is justified, meta-wise - I saw someone unfitting for that role due to his naivete and saw that impression confirmed by his tantrum during the Landsmeet which he throws even after convincing him before to rather let Anora rule.
It is also up to players whether they go for the best meta-outcome, the "ending they want" or not, and the definition of "best" is up to players as well, for that matter. Neither approach is any more or less valid than the other.
#753
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 12:43
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Yes, he has blind spots but the ones you mentioned aren't really the best examples. Better ones might be him whining about the prince thing and duncan every other conversation then taking off points if you are sick of hearing about it because that's a broken record. Breaking up with him can cost you points and bring you right back to zero even if you are polite about it.
His character is very moral and a good guy/boy scout who was raised by the chantry. He got away from the worst of their brainwashing but he still sees what's good and bad, right and wrong. Honestly, I like that about him. I'd rather have him give me points for doing something that was the less caring choice than someone who disapproves of a moral choice like morrigan.
It seems like men are the ones that most commonly have these problems with him. I am beginning to wonder if that is related to not having a romance with him. Perhaps that causes people to see him differently than someone who he is courting once you reach whatever approval triggers it. I think also because you get more plus point options though if you don't handle it well, you can lose everything and be set back to neutral.
I don't have a romance with him because I'm not at all attracted to men. Although I have no major problems with him (though he does go a bit far in objecting to freeing Jowan).
That said, if one gave one's word to Zathrian to protect him if things got out of hand, that seems like a reasonable justification for fighting the werewolves.
#754
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 12:59
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That said, if one gave one's word to Zathrian to protect him if things got out of hand, that seems like a reasonable justification for fighting the werewolves.
That's why I always chose the dialogue in which the Warden tells him that she will protect him so long as he isn't the first to attack.
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#755
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 02:27
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Must...Fight....Urge....To be contrarian.
#756
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 06:19
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Except that Morrigan can get pregnant by the Warden even without the DR and there's a precedent for a difficult, but rare possibility with Maric having a kid with Fiona. I like Gaider's WOG's, but a few of them are just thrown in just for the sake of inconveniencing players just because he can like retconning the lyrium-templar connection so that templars have to use lyrium even through Alistair states that you don't need lyrium and the lyrium is just used by the Chantry as a means of control (The latter being more heavily supported in the games) or stating that two wardens can never have children without magical aid though the exact words in-game were, "next-to-impossible."
Considering that Oghren and Leliana can show up alive in sequels if you killed them in Origins, a child born from two wardens is a minor divergence from canon or from internal consistency in comparison. So as far as I'm concerned, if a player wants to headcannon that they had kids either naturally or with help from Avernus/magical fertility spell or potion, sure. What harm can it do?
Speaking of this comment, they've just confirmed that Alistair and Morrigan have roles in DAI. Now I wonder if this is Alistair as king, because if so, how many people had endings that don't put him on the throne? I've not put him on the throne a third of the time. Actually is my own cannon ending. So if he shows up as king then I just jumped through some hoops to avoid that only to have WOG change my choices. If I did the US ending with him dying or loghain in his place.... ah well I guess he doesn't really become that wandering drunk, now does he? Or he magically lives without Morrigan's help after all that nonsense. And if morrigan is in it, odds will be she is towing that baby if Alistair is alive since that would imply there's a good chance you did the ritual. But what if you did not? So after all of those choices you made, they are all probably irrelevant. Granted, maybe Alistair doesn't show up if you didn't make him king or maybe a different role as a warden. Maybe Morrigan doesn't have the same role if she didn't do the DR...very curious about the spoilers on that.
#757
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 06:24
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I don't have a romance with him because I'm not at all attracted to men. Although I have no major problems with him (though he does go a bit far in objecting to freeing Jowan).
That said, if one gave one's word to Zathrian to protect him if things got out of hand, that seems like a reasonable justification for fighting the werewolves.
His objection is over him being a blood mage. Letting a blood mage go is kind of stupid give you probably just had to mop up the mess at the tower. Well maybe not if you go to redcliffe first, but still... BLOOD MAGE who tried to kill his uncle! I'd give -15 for that so his few points are meager. Hardly a bit far in objecting.
I am forced into telling Zathrian something so I choose only if he doesn't attack first. However, a threat to attack is NOT an attack and ultimately Zathrian uses that as an excuse. He instigates them then wants me to mop up his mess. He's lucky I can't rip out his heart right there.
#758
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 06:34
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I may have been too vague there: by "exorcising Connor the old-fashioned way" I meant that I proceeded to kill him. Having resolved the Circle-situation before Redcliffe to secure what magical support it could still offer against the Blight I saw that as a necessity. Why, you ask? Ignoring meta, it's in such a state of disarray that judging it unable to expend resources and personnel for the matter isn't exactly unfounded. It lost most of its members during Uldred's uprising and who knows how scarce its Lyrium-supplies are at that point. Given this, going straight at the root of Redcliffe's demon infestation seemed only appropriate, and as I said, Isolde's VA, Louiza Patikas, simply does amazing work there. Do experience that and see whether you feel indifferent about Isolde's potential demise afterwards.
I am not so much "shocked" at 'stair's attitude when he's argued with. Rather, he strikes me as the most "loutish" of the companions when it comes to disagreeing with them.
Never claimed otherwise. Ultimately, how the character is received is still up to us players, and obviously that reception will be different. Where you saw promises of a benevolent monarch during the game - which is justified, meta-wise - I saw someone unfitting for that role due to his naivete and saw that impression confirmed by his tantrum during the Landsmeet which he throws even after convincing him before to rather let Anora rule.
It is also up to players whether they go for the best meta-outcome, the "ending they want" or not, and the definition of "best" is up to players as well, for that matter. Neither approach is any more or less valid than the other.
Again, killing connor would of course upset him. It's an innocent kid who is actually a relative - cousin I believe since eamon is his uncle. So you just killed his cousin and family is a big deal to him. A huge deal actually. Nevermind that you just killed a kid because it was the quick and easy way to do it. There were options. You chose not to use them. Likely his character sees it that way.
I do agree that Alistair is not fit to be king alone no matter what the cards say in the epilogue but I only make him king with anora (once) or if I rule beside him where as a Cousland, I have skill and training from bryce, I am more than capable of being another Anora despite what the cards say. I am a cousland. I am about the lead us to victory. I succeeded in uniting armies of fereleden where Loghain could not. I am certainly more capable than Loghain, at least as capable as Anora with a lot more compassion for the elves then she has. And later I find that Fergus is alive, which gee, he might be quite helpful in teaching me things I don't know as well. But the slides don't even imply that you might be helping Alistair or even doing it yourself even though Anora just did only Cousland blood is noble.
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#759
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 06:56
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Fergus might have been the best choice to take the throne, but that just wasn't in the cards.
#760
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 07:07
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Fergus might have been the best choice to take the throne, but that just wasn't in the cards.
Yes, that's why I really think any cousland would be great. It gives a golden age if the male marries anora. So there is the implication. Clearly Bryce had no qualms with raising a daughter equally as well as fergus. I really want to mod the epilogue cards so taking the throne shows it's an excellent pairing and better than even anora and Alistair. I see how to make the changes but have no idea how to export them to an actual mod yet. The toolset is very confusing to me on that point. The skyrim creation kit was so much more straight forward.
#761
Posté 12 avril 2014 - 07:21
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Yes, that's why I really think any cousland would be great. It gives a golden age if the male marries anora. So there is the implication. Clearly Bryce had no qualms with raising a daughter equally as well as fergus. I really want to mod the epilogue cards so taking the throne shows it's an excellent pairing and better than even anora and Alistair. I see how to make the changes but have no idea how to export them to an actual mod yet. The toolset is very confusing to me on that point. The skyrim creation kit was so much more straight forward.
Did you try and check C:\Users\<your username>\Documents\BioWare\Dragon Age\modules\single player\override\toolsetexport, after following these steps as regards "Check out/Check In"?
Come to think of it, I still need to edit Morri's epilogue-slide, meself. >_>
Edit: As an aside: In case one of the various epilogue-fixes out there are used - one should, at that -, those can be accessed far more easily through tool-set this way if it's just text-editing of a slide or two you are after. Just open the cutscene_slideshow.dlg of whichever dialogue and/or epilogue-fix you placed in your override-folder and open up the CONVERSATION_LINE_LIST in the window that shows up. One has to navigate through those entries some, but the text that is displayed is all there and can easily be edited. Once done with the changes, save and close the toolset.
To somewhat bring this back to the question why Anora would be inherently more capable than Ms Cousland: she has a head-start of several years of experience in statecraft, something Cousland simply doesn't have.
At any rate, let's just hope that the various world-states the Warden can leave are not demolished overly much in DA:I.
#762
Posté 13 avril 2014 - 05:16
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Fergus might have been the best choice to take the throne, but that just wasn't in the cards.
This 200%.
With the couslands being the second most powerful lot in ferelden, if not on par with the royals makes fergus the most legible candidate for the throne for me.
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#763
Posté 13 avril 2014 - 07:02
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This 200%.
With the couslands being the second most powerful lot in ferelden, if not on par with the royals makes fergus the most legible candidate for the throne for me.
He's probably of royal blood, too. The crown would want to make a good number of marriage agreements with the Couslands over several generations in order to make sure they stayed in line.
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#764
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 12:52
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I have let Loghain live twice. Once to have him kill the Archdemon and the other to see him after the Archdemon is killed. All my other playthroughs I kill him or have Alistair kill him.
I would instead of killing him, I would make him suffer for what he did. I would force his daughter, Anora, to become a Grey Warden. I know she has no fighting skills so I'm not worried about that. If she dies during the ritual, I would throw her body at Loghains feet and let him cry till he rots in prison and if by chance she does survive, he will know she will die eventually, just not what he would expect.
Is this a cruel punishment? No. He certainly didn't care about the ones that died at Ostagar, so why should I care about him or his daughter.
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#765
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 12:57
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I have let Loghain live twice. Once to have him kill the Archdemon and the other to see him after the Archdemon is killed. All my other playthroughs I kill him or have Alistair kill him.
I would instead of killing him, I would make him suffer for what he did. I would force his daughter, Anora, to become a Grey Warden. I know she has no fighting skills so I'm not worried about that. If she dies during the ritual, I would throw her body at Loghains feet and let him cry till he rots in prison and if by chance she does survive, he will know she will die eventually, just not what he would expect.
Is this a cruel punishment? No. He certainly didn't care about the ones that died at Ostagar, so why should I care about him or his daughter.
Remind me not to get on yout bad side :-p
#766
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:32
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Is this a cruel punishment? No. He certainly didn't care about the ones that died at Ostagar, so why should I care about him or his daughter.
What exactly does that have to do with whether or not this is a cruel punishment? Or whether or not Anora should be punished for her father's actions?
#767
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:38
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What exactly does that have to do with whether or not this is a cruel punishment? Or whether or not Anora should be punished for her father's actions?
To make him suffer. Killing him would be too easy. What would you do if you found out your child died on the Battlefield because the leader decided to retreat when there may of been a chance(no matter how slim) that he/she might've lived or at least be given a chance to live. I like to return the favor.
#768
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:40
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To make him suffer. Killing him would be too easy. What would you do if you found out your child died on the Battlefield because the leader decided to retreat when there may of been a chance(no matter how slim) that he/she might've lived or at least be given a chance to live. I like to return the favor.
Even if we ignore the fact that you seem to need serious help, I don't think that answers either question.
#769
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:41
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Remind me not to get on yout bad side :-p
Believe me, it's not actually that bad.
#770
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:43
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Again, even if we ignore the fact that you seem to need serious help, I don't think that answers the question.
So your a doctor and your telling me I need help. Thats cute.
#771
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:46
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Given that Grey Wardens don't recruit out of charity, I seriously doubt they'd recruit out of spite.
#772
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 02:15
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Given that Grey Wardens don't recruit out of charity, I seriously doubt they'd recruit out of spite.
They seem to recruit out of practical need and quite opportunistically. Anyone who they can grab who is in a situation where Wardens can use that as a way to recruit is fair game. They avoid pissing off nobility so they don't recruit then unless an opportunity presents itself. They take those who want to join even when they might not be the best candidate (Jory). They take whatever they can, criminals or not, if they can fight, if they have been tainted, if they can be of use, welcome to the wardens.
#773
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 02:34
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They seem to recruit out of practical need and quite opportunistically. Anyone who they can grab who is in a situation where Wardens can use that as a way to recruit is fair game. They avoid pissing off nobility so they don't recruit then unless an opportunity presents itself. They take those who want to join even when they might not be the best candidate (Jory). They take whatever they can, criminals or not, if they can fight, if they have been tainted, if they can be of use, welcome to the wardens.
Which begs the question how much physical condition or other criteria factor into surviving the Joining, or whether it really just is sheer, dumb luck. Might be worth exploring somewhere down the line.
#774
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 02:40
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So your a doctor and your telling me I need help. Thats cute.
You do, though.
#775
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 02:53
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So your a doctor and your telling me I need help. Thats cute.
So I need to be a doctor to figure out that you lack sanity. That's cuter. Edit: Though given than I'm an English major, I feel obliged to inform you that the word you wanted was "you're."
