"Actually, he is not happy being a warden. In the fade he tells you he is not. He says almost exactly that he thought he would like being a warden or it would make him happy but it didn't. That's the dialogue you get if you choose the bottom option in the fade which is something like 'you seem... content' then the next dialogue option I think is what reveals things even more... "
Excellent. Totally cool. I'm going to try this.
Yeah, I also made the connection. But unlike Duncan I never tricked anyone. I warned Oghren to think carefully, saying that there are risks. Anders, sigh, it was either being an warden or get hanged/tranquilized. What is the better option? Nathaniel, you can actually have him join by his own free will by letting him go from his cell, so there is that. I dislike being an warden,but also understand they exist for an important pourpose.
I wonder many times what would Duncan do, or any veteran warden for the matter, if they were in my place. I often think they would do things that Alistair highly disapproves of, such as preserving the Anvil, not bothering to go to the circle to help Connor, or recruiting Loghain.
True. They may but we don't have to.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I'd like to know more about these facts because absolutely nowhere in the game you can see that. I only saw blight ravaged lands with no sign of Loghain, poisoning a noble, blatant land grabbing in the name of loghain. And last but certainly not the least... selling of the elves. And many more. Not sure to mention the attempts on the surviving wardens life. Those maybe, most probably or you think arguements will not stick. Cuz unless I dont see those in the game, then it does not happen.
Who is actually lying here I wonder. Now its ok to headcannon that Loghain is a saint. But to call someone who is only saying things they saw in the game a liar is not cool.
Although I dont like the way he wanted to make loghain pay. That was a little too sick for me :-/
I think some of this might be dialogue you get if you let him live and talk to him at camp or take him to someplace like ostagar DLC.
The only dialogue I got was the stuff after we left for redcliffe. I imagine he has some dialogue at camp. So this might be a place you would get that but I think if you go to camp wynne might leave you after you let alistair go but I'm not sure. I did see a clip of him with wynne at ostagar and she was bickering with him. So it's probably in his dialogue. It's not impossible to imagine he would feel badly about some of these things.
I've come to see Loghain as not a bad or evil man but one that is so blind to everything BUT orlais and the fact that the king is letting Orlais back into the land that all else is of small consequence to him.... a price he will pay to keep Orlais out but later he admits it was not wise to you or something like that if you recruit him then ask a few questions. You discover that Maric wanted to keep Alistair but he didn't so to not ruin Rowan's reputation and a few other things like he expects to die and is willing to do so to kill the archdemon. He sort of sees it as something he owes the land or that it is his duty to protect ferelden. I forget the specifics. He was very misguided and his judgment sucked but it came from a place of wanting to protect ferelden since he didn't even believe there was a blight which I think is in one of the cutscenes you get with him.
It's hard to play the other side, let alistair go and take time to see his side, but it's worth it. You can always go back and undo it if you dislike loghain that much, but hearing his thoughts on things is interesting. You don't even have to go to the final battle though the dialogue right before he kills the archdemon might be worth it. Just talking to him that little bit made me like him a little more as I understood his perspective better and that he did have some regret though perhaps not enough.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
"Actually, he is not happy being a warden. In the fade he tells you he is not. He says almost exactly that he thought he would like being a warden or it would make him happy but it didn't. That's the dialogue you get if you choose the bottom option in the fade which is something like 'you seem... content' then the next dialogue option I think is what reveals things even more... "
Excellent. Totally cool. I'm going to try this.
Definitely do it. When you meet him in the fade, save before you are near him. Then go to him and choose the bottom dialogue choice first. When he is done telling you how he is happy now but never was with wardens then next option to choose is the top one where you try to coax him out of there or go along with him in his dream. I forget which it is. Just don't argue with him, try to force him or make him see the truth. Go along with him, play nice like you would if you were at camp or you won't get the dialogue. But that second dialogue - the top choice is I think when he says the stuff about not wanting to die that way which is basically a wardens death. So you learn that he doesn't really like being a warden and then you learn that he doesn't want to die the way wardens do. From that you can gather that he's kind of keeping himself blind to all the truth of what the wardens really are because I don't think he could handle THAT. And that he's doing it because it's his duty and he won't turn back on his duty but essentially, the fade is the one place you learn the truth of who he is and what he really wants. He's happy with family around him and it seems all loving and caring. That is Alistair's ideal.
Then you can persuade him if you keep coaxing him with I think the top dialogue and he will try to remember and eventually want to leave.
I'm tempted on doing a playthrough where Loghain becomes a Warden, because it'd be nice to see him again in Inquisition as the relucant emissary to Orlais, even if he'd be in his 60's by this point. Despite being an antagonist, I really liked Loghain's character and most of my Wardens only executed him because they felt he had to pay for his crimes, rather than having any sense of genuine malice towards him.
His excellent writing and Simon Templeman's amazing delivery of the character really makes me want to see the character again, even if briefly and despite most players choosing to kill him in the first game. If Loghain came back in a future game as a genuinely heroic figure, I reckon I'd have a far more difficult time rationalising my decision to execute him.
If Loghain came back in a future game as a genuinely heroic figure, I reckon I'd have a far more difficult time rationalising my decision to execute him.
There are almost certainly going to be shades of anti-hero in him if he appears in any future media. I don't think he's ever done unqualified heroism, or ever will.
I'm tempted on doing a playthrough where Loghain becomes a Warden, because it'd be nice to see him again in Inquisition as the relucant emissary to Orlais, even if he'd be in his 60's by this point. Despite being an antagonist, I really liked Loghain's character and most of my Wardens only executed him because they felt he had to pay for his crimes, rather than having any sense of genuine malice towards him.
His excellent writing and Simon Templeman's amazing delivery of the character really makes me want to see the character again, even if briefly and despite most players choosing to kill him in the first game. If Loghain came back in a future game as a genuinely heroic figure, I reckon I'd have a far more difficult time rationalising my decision to execute him.
I'm the only one that wouldn't be surprised if in Inquistion, were you made Alistair king and recruited Loghain, Alistair would be in Orlais for political reasons and irony would have Loghain risking/sacrificing himself to save him from an life and death situation? Like, Loghain redemption coming full circle?
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I'm the only one that wouldn't be surprised if in Inquistion, were you made Alistair king and recruited Loghain, Alistair would be in Orlais for political reasons and irony would have Loghain risking/sacrificing himself to save him from an life and death situation? Like, Loghain redemption coming full circle?
Now that would be something interesting.
I just read that the comics have alistair taking lyrium to use his templar abilities again.... so Alistair might be fighting. It would be funny to see them fighting together on the same side of things. Oh, the banter!
Like most everyone else, i've done both.
I only keep him alive if I'm not romancing Alistair but we are best friends. I give Alistair some confidence after talking to his sister (some people refer to this as harding a term I don't care for), have him marry Queen Anora and then make Loghain a warden. Sometimes I have Loghain do the deed with Morrigan but usually he takes out the arch-demon and dies.
Normally though he dies whether it's at the Lands meet or killing the arch-demon. I don't like what he became so have no problem with his death.
Afterwards when I talk to Alistair he agrees I was right, which is my current favorite ending choice. (and this really irritates me that he won't agree his LI is right). 
I agree, Loghain dying to protect Alistair would be a wonderful death and final redemption.
Alternatively, imagine the banter between them if the Warden sacrificed themselves?
Alistair: S/he sacrificed her/himself to save the Archdemon, what did you do?
Loghain: I offered to take the plunge, but s/he refused. So I did my duty and followed orders. Unlike some people.
Alistair: And what is that supposed to mean?
Loghain: It means I didn't quit like a spoilt child when things didn't go my way.
Teagan: You forget yourself, Loghain, you are speaking to the King of Ferelden!
Loghain: Forgive me, "I didn't quit like a spoilt child when things didn't go my way"... your majesty!
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Afterwards when I talk to Alistair he agrees I was right, which is my current favorite ending choice. (and this really irritates me that he won't agree his LI is right).
He really won't agree with his LI that she was right? My god, the sexist BS just never ends, does it? BW/Gaider suck.
Like most everyone else, i've done both.
I only keep him alive if I'm not romancing Alistair but we are best friends. I give Alistair some confidence after talking to his sister (some people refer to this as harding a term I don't care for), have him marry Queen Anora and then make Loghain a warden. Sometimes I have Loghain do the deed with Morrigan but usually he takes out the arch-demon and dies.
Normally though he dies whether it's at the Lands meet or killing the arch-demon. I don't like what he became so have no problem with his death.
Afterwards when I talk to Alistair he agrees I was right, which is my current favorite ending choice. (and this really irritates me that he won't agree his LI is right).
Wow! That is totally unreal. Was your warden male and he agreed or female and not a LI.
99% of the time i play female.
When i first got the game I tried every thing I could think of to get Alistair to agree letting Loghain become a warden and kill the arch demon but it didn't work. Worst option was he loves you but leaves and never comes back, so i accepted it and did the DR or one of us died. Then I played a character who romancd Zev and had Alistair marry Anora. He fussed when Loghain became a warden but didn't go off and get drunk. After Loghain died he said that I was right. <sigh> Friendship was more important than Love.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Wow! That is totally unreal. Was your warden male and he agreed or female and not a LI.
Sounds like both were tried. Totally sexist either way. I'd wish I'd have killed him by then. The one male I played I let him live using my boon to save alistair and now after hearing this, I wonder why I bothered. For all that 'love' he professed to have for you, in the end if you don't give him the revenge he wants be becomes a very immature brat which I find I can no longer really get into romance with him because of it. I feel like he's saying words and all but all he wants is someone to fill the void in his empty existence which really could be the truth given what you learn in the fade. And then as an elf I discover he especially wants to be with the elf because she's an elf. That still leaves me a bit ewww. Not because of anything other than it kind of implies he might have some weird fetish going on or that my human was not 'especially' as enticing to him. Neither of those sits well with me. So right now my nobles are using him for the throne and ruling the kingdom while everyone thinks it's him. Cailan 2.0. When I bore of that I'll play elves who use him for a bit then move on.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
99% of the time i play female.
When i first got the game I tried every thing I could think of to get Alistair to agree letting Loghain become a warden and kill the arch demon but it didn't work. Worst option was he loves you but leaves and never comes back, so i accepted it and did the DR or one of us died. Then I played a character who romancd Zev and had Alistair marry Anora. He fussed when Loghain became a warden but didn't go off and get drunk. After Loghain died he said that I was right. <sigh> Friendship was more important than Love.
So if he loved you he will hold it against you. If he did not love you he is cool with it? Very mature.
I dont think its abouy maturity, but betrayal runs a lot deeper when there are feelings involved. I mean I could accept some shts my friends put me into but never from my boyfriend for example. Just human nature.
For me it was a pretty easy decision. Certainly Loghain deserved to die, but if you've read the books you know that often the Wardens get their recruits from various criminal types, so it seemed like he was pretty much the perfect choice. From there you can either let him sacrifice himself in the final battle, or do the DR and let him spend his remaining days fighting darkspawn and trying to make up for all the evil he did. Killing him instead of letting him become a Warden simply serves no purpose, given the situation. If there were no blight, of course just kill him, but with the world in danger he's too valuable to not make use of. The fact that Allistair behaves in a bizarre fashion when you spare Loghain and may or may not survive after you make Anora the Queen is nobody's fault but his own, you try to talk sense into him but he just won't listen, so whatever happens to him doesn't bother me. So that's what I do, I spare Loghain.
I dont think its abouy maturity, but betrayal runs a lot deeper when there are feelings involved. I mean I could accept some shts my friends put me into but never from my boyfriend for example. Just human nature.
I see what you mean. So what your saying is that he still doesn't agree with the decision he just puts up with it because it was a friend and not a LI.
99% of the time i play female.
When i first got the game I tried every thing I could think of to get Alistair to agree letting Loghain become a warden and kill the arch demon but it didn't work. Worst option was he loves you but leaves and never comes back, so i accepted it and did the DR or one of us died. Then I played a character who romancd Zev and had Alistair marry Anora. He fussed when Loghain became a warden but didn't go off and get drunk. After Loghain died he said that I was right. <sigh> Friendship was more important than Love.
Was Alistair hardened when you were romancing him?
The only way to have Alistair stay when recruiting Loghain is by having him marry Anora and to do that he has to be hardened.
And this also works when you are romancing him. I just tested it a few minutes ago and it only took one persuade check.
This also ends the romance. Which is totally understandable.
I don't know what he says after defeating the Archdemon, but I suppose its the same dialog as you get when you were friends.
He's not okay with it, but he understands it. Depending on how you read it, you might have become friends again in Awakening, or maybe he still hates your guts and is just being polite.
ON TOPIC.
It depends on who I'm playing. I actually like Loghain and if you could get both Alistair and him to stay in the party, he'd probably always live.
But since that's not possible, he usually dies. The reasoning being: The joining is often fatal. If I recruit Loghain and he dies, I've lost one Grey Warden and gained nothing. If I kill Loghain, I get to keep Alistair and lose nothing in the process.
When I recruit him it's usually because I don't want to do the Dark Ritual, but still want to have Alistair live. Or if my character hates Alistair and sees no loss in losing him. Or I have a male Cousland who wants to keep his father-in-law.
But if someone hasn't tried it, I would definitely suggest sparing Loghain and then talking to him in camp and checking out some of his party banter. He's surprisingly charming when he isn't going on about the Orlesians and he offers some insight on Anora as well.
He's surprisingly charming when he isn't going on about the Orlesians and he offers some insight on Anora as well.
He's surprisingly charming when he is going on about the Orlesians. "I've watched painted, masked lords beat a defenseless old man to death with riding crops. To this day I don't know why. Is that hate? I've seen good sensible men fight with nothing, no weapons, no armor, not even hope of success, to see the Occupation end. Is that hate?" (Incomplete and probably not word-for-word, but the fact remains I found him pretty eloquent.)
He's surprisingly charming when he is going on about the Orlesians. "I've watched painted, masked lords beat a defenseless old man to death with riding crops. To this day I don't know why. Is that hate? I've seen good sensible men fight with nothing, no weapons, no armor, not even hope of success, to see the Occupation end. Is that hate?" (Incomplete and probably not word-for-word, but the fact remains I found him pretty eloquent.)
You're pretty much spot on. The dialogue is this
""Hate doesn't describe it, I've seen painted masked lords beat an old farmer to death with riding crops. To this day I don't know why, is that hate? I saw good sensible men fighting armored Chevaliers with nothing. No weapon, no armies, not even hope of success, to see the occupation end, is that hate?"
Loghain is a man with a lot of charm and personality, and he's far from the monster many like to paint him as. He's eloquent, but he doesn't mince words. Often, he's brutally honest, more so in regards to himself.
His parting words to Anora are another reason that I always felt bad about executing him, I wish we didn't have to execute him right in front of Anora since that splatter of blood on her always makes me cringe.
Anora is another reason I'd be tempted to see him live. Even in playthroughs where Alistair has her locked up to prevent any kind of Civil War, I find myself feeling bad for her. Anora might make herself out to be a colossal... madam... at times, but when she's not putting on a front for people, she's likewise actually surprisingly pleasant to talk to and someone I wouldn't mind getting to know a lot better. It makes sense that as his daughter, she similarly puts up a lot of walls and create a hard front for people. Both actually seem to be decent enough people when you get passed everything.
I'm really tempted to do this playthough because I wouldn't mind seeing both again. I suspect that Loghain could easily mellow into a cool old guy and Anora might be an interesting character if she's allowed her freedom and had relinquished her claim on the throne. Since Alistair has ruled the country with applomb for the past decade, I could see her dropping her claim because her only reason for wanting to be Queen was to see that Ferelden was being run by the right person... which Alistair has proven is him.
Yea, I play to my strengths. I figured that Anora would be the key to my being able to let him live one playthrough, and it was.
I find his voice grates on my nerves, and Loghain's dopey speech is another reason I usually let Alistair duel him, so I can forgo the whole 'little girls in pigtails and scraped knees' crap. First he was arguing she was a 'strong queen' but in his eyes she was just a little girl. I suppose that's a father's viewpoint but sheeesh, the whole thing is really heavy handed there and not one of my favorite moments in the game.
The one time I let him live, I went straight from Landsmeet, to camp to equip him to Redcliffe to finish up, and to keep me from changing my mind.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Yea, I play to my strengths. I figured that Anora would be the key to my being able to let him live one playthrough, and it was.
I find his voice grates on my nerves, and Loghain's dopey speech is another reason I usually let Alistair duel him, so I can forgo the whole 'little girls in pigtails and scraped knees' crap. First he was arguing she was a 'strong queen' but in his eyes she was just a little girl. I suppose that's a father's viewpoint but sheeesh, the whole thing is really heavy handed there and not one of my favorite moments in the game.
The one time I let him live, I went straight from Landsmeet, to camp to equip him to Redcliffe to finish up, and to keep me from changing my mind.
Just hit esc and you miss that dialogue.
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