Duncan and depending on how you play your Warden Loghain and Nathaniel.
Yeah the joining is a bad way to go out. And even if you do survive you're stuck with nightmares, infertility and turning into a ghoul. I can see plenty of people doing that out of spite.
And my warden always slaughters loghain cuz absolutely nowhere in the game I can see his usefullness. Everything he does is a failure. You say that he's got backing from half the bannorn? Well that will go poof fast as his cronies are stealing lands from the nobles in his name. So I do not think he will keep those loyalties at all. Even Ser Cauthren has doubts about him in the end. Would I trade an ally and a friend who's been dodging bullets from loghain from day 1 to..... THAT? Sten: NO.
Amusingly, Sten, in banter, actually voices approval on "converting" Loghain ala the Qun.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
As for Loghain's usefulness, I'll just reiterate what Morrigan says..
That he's a vast improvement over Alistair. But she adds, that isn't saying much.
I can always use a sword and shield warrior. And it's nice if it's not Alistair. I understand Alistair has his niche and can be appealing in a certain light.... but I do not understand his wide appeal. He's almost as annoying as Wynne. And as much an airhead as Cailan. Some people want to give him "bro" status, but he's no Varric. He's Carth. Except Carth didn't excuse people like Duncan. So he's worse than Carth.
Loghain did nothing wrong.
Now even I'm not claiming that.
I've been having problems with this decision as well due to the way I roleplay my character.
I let Sten come along to redeem himself for the family's murder.
I take Zevran along even though he's an assassin.
I put Behlen on the throne even though he frames me for murder and might have helped my father's death along.
Then along comes loghain who abandons half an army, lets Howe do whatever depraved activities he wishes, and enslaves elves to Tevinter. Due to the way I play I let him live because it kind of goes against my character's mindset to kill him. I give most people a chance to redeem themselves. I love Loghain, however it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that he sells the elves to Tevinter and there's no way to save the ones that are already gone. Of all the things he does it is the slavery that sticks in my craw, I've never been one to abide it in any game where I've had the choice.
So I sit on the fence in all my playthroughs for a while as to what to do with him, and still I let him live.
'Tis very vexxing.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I've been having problems with this decision as well due to the way I roleplay my character.
I let Sten come along to redeem himself for the family's murder.
I take Zevran along even though he's an assassin.
I put Behlen on the throne even though he frames me for murder and might have helped my father's death along.
Then along comes loghain who abandons half an army, lets Howe do whatever depraved activities he wishes, and enslaves elves to Tevinter. Due to the way I play I let him live because it kind of goes against my character's mindset to kill him. I give most people a chance to redeem themselves. I love Loghain, however it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that he sells the elves to Tevinter and there's no way to save the ones that are already gone. Of all the things he does it is the slavery that sticks in my craw, I've never been one to abide it in any game where I've had the choice.
So I sit on the fence in all my playthroughs for a while as to what to do with him, and still I let him live.
'Tis very vexxing.
If it helps, try not to think of "death" as the only suitable punishment. That's the mental workaround here, I guess. Capital punishment has a sort of savage appeal, but it's not the only punishment.
It's a matter of disagreeing directly with Alistair at the Landsmeet. He thinks being a Warden is an honor, not a punishment. This is the point where your opinions on the Wardens come to a head. Is it an honor or a punishment? Personally, I hate the Wardens. It's a punishment. It all depends on where your characters' origins are though, and what they lost because of the Wardens. Or what they gained.
More importantly though, it matters how Loghain sees it. He sees it as a punishment too. He's happy that he "passed your test" and survived the Joining, but he's no fan.
I think of the Wardens as more of a "position" than an honour or punishment. Whoever can kill darkspawn effectively, or is otherwise an asset, and is not better off in some other role or planning to kill you, is appointed. The darkspawn are the greatest threat here -- the life of one man isn't nearly as important. And frankly if you trusted Zevran, there's no real reason to think Loghain's going to be the one to do you in.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
If it helps, try not to think of "death" as the only suitable punishment. That's the mental workaround here, I guess.
It's a matter of disagreeing directly with Alistair at the Landsmeet. He thinks being a Warden is an honor, not a punishment. This is the point where your opinions on the Wardens come to a head. Is it an honor or a punishment? Personally, I hate the Wardens. It's a punishment. It all depends on where your characters' origins are though, and what they lost because of the Wardens. Or what they gained.
I don't even think it's so much a matter of if it is an honor or a punishment. Alistair saw it as an honor. But he's a very sheltered and naive SOB. Much as I love him, this is one glaring fault he has. Blind stupidity when it comes to the wardens. So desperate to not be a templar (because he didn't want to kill mages after that one harrowing he attended where they killed the mage with a demon in her) that this is far more appealing to him. He instills it with some sort of romanticized honor - the fabled grey wardens, heroes and great warriors (because he cannot face the horror of it which in the fade, in his 'dream' you learn that it is something that is far from his ideal and no honor by any stretch of the imagination). Too horrified to face the reality that he probably would have been taken by Duncan whether he liked it or not he lives this lie that he tells to himself. It doesn't even occur to him that the 'cutpurse' was basically conscripted because he robbed the wrong person or he just doesn't want to or cannot admit it. That this didn't even make him wonder just a little bit... that what Riordan says at the landsmeet if you hit the right dialogue and he speaks of them being murderers and theives, etc... I really wonder if there was some sort of undercurrent of dislike for alistair when they wrote him because to make someone so idiotically naive or deep in denial... my god. It's kind of horrendous. But really it's just one more case where the character, Alistair, ever the tool of the writers, behaves to suit their needs rather than being a reasonable and fairly intelligent character.
These days when I play, my characters are a bit darker on the wardens. They're all wise and a bit cocky now. First games they were more naive and honorable. They've evolved quite a bit. Now they all seem to be channeling my current thoughts and feelings on the wardens which is that they are on hole a necessary evil. Yes. Evil. What they do to people, how they lie to them, how they make opportunistic grabs, stealing people from their lives at what in many cases is the worst possible moment and you end up having to make the best of a pretty crappy deal thanks to Alistair's good buddy Duncan... well, it's some nasty stuff. My wardens now, never stay with the wardens unless I choose to romance alistair and we choose to stay after the blight because anything will be easier. Otherwise they say 'FU' and run off after doing their job.
I don't know who I feel worse for... the ones who become wardens around the blight or the ones who literally waste their lives in between blights... all those generations of people stuck with this taint and crappy existence of nightmares and slowly turning into a ghoul, and for what? To stand guard awaiting the next round of hell.
Letting Loghain become a warden to me serves one purpose.... it allows alistair to live and loghain's death to be of use, mainly in saving me and if I make loghain a warden then also saving virgin Alistair from losing it to Morrigan. Ewww. If my character has disliked Alistair for being nasty and having angry outbursts then sticking him with Anora and letting loghain join the wardens is fun. If I am meh on him, I don't care either way. If I have romance him or he is a friend, Alistair gets his revenge. I think this point in the landsmeet with loghain has far more to do with how you feel about alistair in that roleplay than it ever has to do with Loghain, which is I think the real point behind it. Probably why they made Alistair so easily disliked for certain people and characters.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Well... I don't think the writers hate him. It seems that Gaider canonized his survival with the comics and such. And I can see why they made the Dalish origin the "default" playthrough -- because you already get a human noble type of story with Alistair. You have to have a representative of different backgrounds and Alistair can't be ridden of too easily. He's their preferred representative of the Human Noble.
As for his naivete... maybe it's just a trait typical of warrior human males. lol. Cailan's even worse. "Glorious!"
That's another reason I like Loghain though. For a human warrior, he's not much for glory or idealism. "Let us attend to reality."
As for his naivete... maybe it's just a trait typical of warrior human males. lol. Cailan's even worse. "Glorious!"
That's another reason I like Loghain though. For a human warrior, he's not much for glory or idealism. "Let us attend to reality."
Loghain yields after the duel, and would be probably willing to help even without the Joining at that point. I don't even think you know Alistair will leave until after you've locked in on sparing Loghain -- it's not a trade unless you metagame.
Doubly so if you've made him king, since King Alistair will always have to leave the Wardens eventually -- it's just a matter of whether he joins your party for this final assault.
Now even I'm not claiming that.
Oh I agee. Just wanted to see if it would draw out reactions 
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Loghain yields after the duel, and would be probably willing to help even without the Joining at that point. I don't even think you know Alistair will leave until after you've locked in on sparing Loghain -- it's not a trade unless you metagame.
Doubly so if you've made him king, since King Alistair will always have to leave the Wardens eventually -- it's just a matter of whether he joins your party for this final assault.
You're in even more of a bind if he's unhardened. Then you've got to plead for Alistair's life after he throws a fit.
Or maybe it's only in the case that you tried to marry him and Anora. Then it becomes a "him or her" situation.
I've never bothered, thinking I might waste a boon (I should probably check a wiki).
Guest_StreetMagic_*
You do not think being hidden in the stables growing up.with dogs and horses and eamon constantly drilling on his head that he's nothing contributed 90% of that naivety? There is no excuse for Cailan but theres plenty for Alistair.
And the more I think about it, that only made Alistair so much stronger in my book. In my line of work, I've seen grown ups with much lesser history of abuse than Alistair's when they were younger that made them emotionally and mentally bankrupt. The fact that he retained his sanity after all that makes him a much stronger boy ( he is only 20ish after all) who would make an even stronger man later on.
I don't really care how he handles things. Good for him. That's not the real problem. It's that he wants Wardens to be viewed in these naive ways in totality, for everyone. He doesn't care where our Warden's stories started or where we come from.
You're in even more of a bind if he's unhardened. Then you've got to plead for Alistair's life after he throws a fit.
Or maybe it's only in the case that you tried to marry him and Anora. Then it becomes a "him or her" situation.
I've never bothered, thinking I might waste a boon (I should probably check a wiki).
You have to harden Alistair and marry him off to Anora if you want to spare Loghain without having Alistair try to storm out before being exiled/executed. Alistair's hardening doesn't really matter much in the game elsewhere, but when it comes to the Landsmeet it really comes to a head.
Oh, and you don't waste the boon. This is the boon for solving the civil war and, importantly, getting her place on the throne sealed -- you're essentially wrenching it out of her to force her to make a move she really thinks is a bad idea. The boon at the end is for saving Ferelden, stopping the Blight, yadda yadda yadda, go go Hero of Ferelden.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think he does know quite a bit about the wardens or he would have thrown a fit on duncan killing jory. But like everyone else there is a line we do not cross and Loghain is his. And for the rest who hates Alistair's guts, its his being "whiney" that earned him his execution. For some, it is the fact that loghain could have handed the keys of ferelden to the darkspawn if he ever did succeed on killing off the last remaining wardens, and that's the least of the long list.
I don't know where his lines are drawn. They're scribbled all over the place. He doesn't excuse Avernus either. Loghain's not the exception. Doesn't want you to recruit Zevran as well, but won't execute him himself. But he does encourage you to pick up Sten.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
You have to harden Alistair and marry him off to Anora if you want to spare Loghain without having Alistair try to storm out before being exiled/executed. Alistair's hardening doesn't really matter much in the game elsewhere, but when it comes to the Landsmeet it really comes to a head.
Oh, and you don't waste the boon. This is the boon for solving the civil war and, importantly, getting her place on the throne sealed -- you're essentially wrenching it out of her to force her to make a move she really thinks is a bad idea. The boon at the end is for saving Ferelden, stopping the Blight, yadda yadda yadda, go go Hero of Ferelden.
Oh, I know how to pull it off right with everyone happy. Just not in that particular situation.
Thanks for telling me about the boon though.
I don't know where his lines are drawn. They're scribbled all over the place. He doesn't excuse Avernus either. Loghain's not the exception. Doesn't want you to recruit Zevran as well, but won't execute him himself. But he does encourage you to pick up Sten.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I already told you where his line lies.
And I indicated it's not that simple.
Despite not liking him much, I think he's more complicated than having any clear lines drawn. One minute he'll condone blood magic to save Connor (and blame you for murder, if you don't). The next he'll preach to Avernus.
One minute he'll condone blood magic to save Connor (and blame you for murder, if you don't). The next he'll preach to Avernus.
It's not even that simple. He does get ticked off about it afterwards, unless you pick the right dialogue option. (And I think that's a bug.)
And I indicated it's not that simple.
Despite not liking him much, I think he's more complicated than having any clear lines drawn. One minute he'll condone blood magic to save Connor (and blame you for murder, if you don't). The next he'll preach to Avernus.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Iirc he did not condone to using bm to save connor but to kill connor. And the rest, yes he does not agree but at the end of the day its the warden's call and he has to accept them cuz he was the one who dumped the leadership on them. But the line im talking about is when you hit the wall on something that ultimately he wouldn't give.
Sorry if I am not clear enough. This is not my native language.
Ah, it's OK. You're doing fine. I couldn't tell.
You do not think being hidden in the stables growing up.with dogs and horses and eamon constantly drilling on his head that he's nothing contributed 90% of that naivety? There is no excuse for Cailan but theres plenty for Alistair.
And the more I think about it, that only made Alistair so much stronger in my book. In my line of work, I've seen grown ups with much lesser history of abuse than Alistair's when they were younger that made them emotionally and mentally bankrupt. The fact that he retained his sanity after all that makes him a much stronger boy ( he is only 20ish after all) who would make an even stronger man later on.
And to the topic, what sten did is bad and zevran case was his way of living and survival. But they nonetheless offered to help the warden with the blight which everyone who likes loghain always points out was the immediate concern, without the warden forcing archdemon blood down their throats first. In so many ways Sten is a much better being than Loghain in the game which made my decision to never spare him easier. Plus he could die in the joining which would leave my warden horribly screwed with alistair gone or leaving the wardens to become king.
Again this boils down to your warden's personality. But I just cant play the game any other way. I couldn't even tell Darrien to soak his head in the water in HNF origin.
This!
The one I never understood is the disapproval from letting Jowan out of his cage, especially since Leliana is in favor of letting him redeem himself. You have control of Jowan the whole time, and Alistair is there to smite him if things go wrong.
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