3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Xetykins]

Frankly im glad theres no option to convince alistair to let him live. Same with wynne and leliana with the ashes. Or shale with caridin. Cuz it would be like turning them into chess pieces you acused the writers of. Then they have no personality and really just in the mercy of your very whim.

Like im glad alistair has the nerve to dump my non noble wardens, even my hnf first playthrough cuz I did not know better. I was fumming for hours but I wouldnt have it any other way. I just wished I had the option to kick his tainted baby maker or whack his face with duncan's shield tho.

[Xetykins]

You really think that Alistair wanting Loghain dead is out of character? Really? Cuz like I saw that coming from fresh out of Loathering which only gone more obvious as the game went on. Hell even I can see myself not working with him at any cost.

But thats the beauty of the game. So many ways you could go. Kill loghain or spare, kill alistair, make him drunk, make him king or grey warden all that BUT alistair and loghain working together. It is something I understand fully why. And I know that people dont think the same and the writers made use of our differences for replayability values.

There is only one thing I wanted to change. Its that I faacking wished they did not monsterize my absolute favorite character in the books.

[Former_Fiend]

I've spared Loghain in 90% of my playthroughs.

 

Not going to lie, a large part of that is because Simon Templeman is my all time favorite VA and I can't resist having him as a party member.

 

But ultimately, Loghain is my favorite character in Dragon Age. I absolutely understand why some people, perhaps even most people, think he deserves death, but I'm going to spare him every time.

[Aimi]

I've spared Loghain in 90% of my playthroughs.
 
Not going to lie, a large part of that is because Simon Templeman is my all time favorite VA and I can't resist having him as a party member.
 
But ultimately, Loghain is my favorite character in Dragon Age. I absolutely understand why some people, perhaps even most people, think he deserves death, but I'm going to spare him every time.

I also consider him to be one of my favorite characters in Dragon Age. Which is why my characters mostly kill him.

[Lavaeolus]

Frankly im glad theres no option to convince alistair to let him live. Same with wynne and leliana with the ashes. Or shale with caridin. Cuz it would be like turning them into chess pieces you acused the writers of. Then they have no personality and really just in the mercy of your very whim.

For the record, Leliana can actually be convinced to let the Ashes go. She still disapproves -10, but she won't attack.

 

I also consider him to be one of my favorite characters in Dragon Age. Which is why my characters mostly kill him.

You're giving Loghain a lot of mixed messages here. I can only be thankful you loved the Archdemon so much.

[Mike3207]

I haven't read the books either-but I think it'd be Loghain. I understand he's a lot more likable character in the books.

[Shadow Fox]

For the record, Leliana can actually be convinced to let the Ashes go. She still disapproves -10, but she won't attack.

 

You're giving Loghain a lot of mixed messages here. I can only be thankful you loved the Archdemon so much.

Only if she's hardened otherwise she'll try to put an arrow up your ass.

[Kira_Sadi]

I've played Dragon Age: Origins many times and have always been split on the decision to either let Loghain live or die. What do you guys do with him and why? I'm curious to see both sides opinion and reason behind it.

personally I don't think loghain is a bad guy that being said my human Nobel character would think that he needs to die same as my city elf. so for me it depends on what works with my character not what I personally want.

[Xetykins]

Who is your absolute favorite character that they monsterize? I don't read the books.

The main monster in the game next to the archdemon. Loghain. Have a crush on him in the books.

Oohhk I go hide in my cubby hole now.

[Kira_Sadi]

The main monster in the game next to the archdemon. Loghain. Have a crush on him in the books.

Oohhk I go hide in my cubby hole now.

NOO DONT HIDE!!!

[Kira_Sadi]

You have a crush on loghain from the books? But you said he is monsterized by the books... very confused now

the human heart is a very confusing thing ^.^

[Lavaeolus]

I read it as "monsterize" "my" "favourite character from the books".

 

Character from the books = Loghain

 

And they monsterised him (in the game).

[TEWR]

I haven't read the books either-but I think it'd be Loghain. I understand he's a lot more likable character in the books.

 

Not really, no. He was much more likable in the game then in the book.

[Ryzaki]

Wasn't he in the game first?

[Lavaeolus]

The Stolen Throne came out before Origins, serving as both a story about Maric, Loghain, Rowan and Ferelden, and a semi-teaser/introduction to the world.

 

My two cents: Loghain kills a noble in cold blood at one point and tricks Maric into executing his love interest for Ferelden. These are a bit less harsh than they necessarily sound, but Loghain is still the pragmatic strategist he always was. The only difference is the last times, he was right, and he was not forced into anywhere near as desperate measures.

[Androme]

Off  with his head!

 

I've only spared him once. I still can't see him as the deep and complex character many people here make him out to be. He's not worth it to lose Alistair over.

 

Alistair is a whiny brat that doesn't want to take responsibility and face his destiny for the greater good of all. Loghain is a hardline nationalist that would do anything for Ferelden, and most assured, has done alot for Ferelden. Including not letting an entire army go to waste so that a madman of a king could live out his knight in shining armor on a white horse fantasy. Loghain is one of the best characters ever written, and I always spare him and make Alistair into my ****** and make him do as I tell him to.

[DesstinyMaker]

The entire scenario is really contrived, and it would not happen in real life.

 

I almost always kill Loghain because I am aware that it's just a trade-off; we will still have only two Grey Wardens regardless of what we do, and I discovered that Loghain's stats just aren't anything like as good as Alistair's are. Since Alistair is my main tank nearly every playthrough, it makes no sense for me to trade in my best warrior for an inferior one.

 

Now, that's the metagaming approach. If I look at this from a philosophical angle and explore the morals and ethics here, I end up with the same answer for different reasons.

 

Let us forget, for a moment, all we really know about the game. Let me pretend I am the Grey Warden, jumping into all this for the first time. In that case, all I REALLY know is this:

 

1. Loghain hates the Grey Wardens.

2. Loghain spends most of the game trying to kill off what is left of the Grey Wardens.  He spends a LOT of money hiring professional assassins like Zevran to get the job done.

3. Loghain arrives at the Landsmeet still hostile to the Grey Wardens. He is so hostile, he parks his best lieutenant outside the Landsmeet door to prevent Alistair and me from entering the hall to plead our case.

4. If we successfully plead our case to the Landsmeet, he defies the Landsmeet with violence, setting off a battle inside the Landsmeet chamber. (Yes, I know we will end up doing it too, if we fail; I always thought one of the objects of the game was not to fail, to prove my case so successfully that I don't need Anora's help to win.)

5. If he loses THAT battle, he still insists on single combat. If he wins that combat, his opponent, and every single person in the opposing party, will DIE. He does not offer me the mercy that the game offers him.

 

 

What we have then, is a really hostile and very clever, capable opponent who has consistently shown that he wants us all dead.  During the actual debate, he never says a single word that suggests he's even remotely interested in accepting this offer of mercy, so we have no reason to believe that he wants it.  At that particular point in the Landsmeet, I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that Loghain is going to be a net asset to our cause. Indeed, I have the distinct impression that he will be looking for any reason to murder both me and Alistair in our sleep before storming the castle to retake the throne from his six-year-old in pigtails.  (GAK!)  This offer would never, ever be seriously considered by any military organization anywhere in the world - not because Loghain has committed crimes, but because Loghain is a consistent and very, very dangerous enemy of the organization that is debating the merits of recruiting him. Nobody in their right mind is going to put a cobra into their beds if they don't absolutely have to.

 

I agree that we need more Grey Wardens, and I'd be entirely in favor of setting up a recruitment drive right there at the Landsmeet. Might want to recruit Cauthrien. She's an amazing fighter, and with her boss currently beheaded, she might be in need of a job. However, nothing that we see about Loghain up to that exact point of the game indicates that he's going to be anything but a very dangerous adversary within our ranks.  People argue that if we put Anora on the throne after that, we must execute Alistair for fear of an uprising. OK, fair enough. By the same token, I would assume we must execute Loghain... for fear of an uprising against the Grey Wardens, caused BY HIM, in a time of extreme crisis.

 

It is ONLY through metagaming that we learn there are any good reasons for saving Loghain - and yet, it is also through metagaming that I've learned he's an inferior fighter to Alistair, and therefore I have no reason to want to work with him. The best case scenario for Ferelden, of course, according to the epilogue cards, is for hardened Alistair to marry Anora and take the throne jointly while I use Loghain as archdemon fodder so I don't have to die or arrange to give Morrigan a demon baby. However, we only learn that through metagaming.  As for whether Loghain has committed crimes that warrant execution....

 

1. He kidnapped a blood mage prisoner from the Chantry and convinced him to make an assassination attempt on a rival noble. The aftermath of that assassination attempt resulted in the death of many, many people in the village of Redcliffe at the hands of Connor's demon, and the deaths of several of Eamon's knights looking for the Urn of Sacred Ashes when they should have been fighting the darkspawn.  It may also result in the death of one of Eamon's family members.  Yes, that's a executable offense.

 

2. He forced Ferelden citizens into slavery to raise money so he could run his civil war against the Bannorn. Darkspawn are threatening to destroy the country and he's selling people so he can stay in power.  At this point, I don't really care what his INTENTIONS are; sometimes you have to evaluate actions based on the fruit they yield rather than on what was hoped for.  Yes, this is an executable offense.

 

3. I don't fault him for pulling out of the Battle of Ostagar, but I do fault him for not warning Cailan ahead of time that he might have to do that. He tells Cailan he's wrong, but he never tells Cailan that he's SO wrong he might be willing to abandon him. THAT is the regicidal betrayal, not the actual withdraw. The fact that he immediately seizes power before Cailan's body is even found and buried makes his intentions seem very suspect, even though the game repeatedly tells us that he's convinced he's doing it all for the good of Ferelden.  However, he ends up being a nightmarishly bad regent and he undermines his daughter's credibility and power. At the very least, he's a CRAPPY Game of Thrones player, and you know what happens when you play the Game of Thrones and lose.

 

You die. Period.

 

The only reasons I ever save Loghain have to do with role-playing. If I am playing a male noble, that noble was probably Anora's childhood friend. That noble may have aspirations to marry into the royal family and create a new dynasty. Under those circumstances, for example, of course I am going to save Loghain, because I want to make Anora happy as I woo her.

[DesstinyMaker]

OK, so he thinks it's a punishment worse than death. Seems like a reasonable assessment, and very much in character. In that case... why on earth would I want to recruit a very dangerous enemy who hates the Wardens, wants us all dead, AND thinks we are punishing him very severely?  Especially after Alistair, who likes being a Grey Warden, raises an objection? My point is not that Loghain deserves or does not deserve the fate worse than death; it's that he's hostile and dangerous to the organization, and my Warden has no way of knowing that he's suddenly going to be reasonable, cooperative, docile and obedient once he's drunk from the chalice. This whole scenario demands an abrupt and total reversal of every aspect of Loghain's attitude and demeanor in order to work. I don't think people really turn on a dime like that. That's one of the reasons why I think the whole scenario is contrived.

[Lavaeolus]

I agree that we need more Grey Wardens, and I'd be entirely in favor of setting up a recruitment drive right there at the Landsmeet. Might want to recruit Cauthrien. She's an amazing fighter, and with her boss currently beheaded, she might be in need of a job.

You ever fought her at Howe's place? Damn gal has nearly as much health as the sodding Archdemon.

 

If she ever goes on a Calling I don't think we'll even have to worry about darkspawn anymore.