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[DesstinyMaker]

But once again - we don't learn any of this until AFTER we've recruited him and lost Alistair.  We only learn that Loghain is willing to be a good, faithful Grey Warden rather than a dangerous enemy inside the ranks once the decision is already made, and it requires a 180 degree change instant change in attitude from him that does not make any sense. This is a very intelligent and capable man with immense personal will who, according to every scrap of evidence I have at the time of the decision, hates me passionately and wants me dead. It is only through metagaming that we know his motivations or his potential to do the job well. And if the characters had metagaming information at their fingertips when they are living through this game, Alistair would probably be quite willing to stuff Loghain down the archdemon's throat so that he and his friend the Warden could live instead.

 

That's the problem. Every argument in favor of saving Loghain that I've ever thought really was well-thought-out requires that we make omniscient decisions. We have to know, contrary to what the game tells us, that he's going to serve the Wardens well without being a possible inside menace. We have to know that one of the Wardens has to die, and that it might as well be Loghain. (The piece of information that could have changed Alistair's mind!)  We have to know that he's absolutely going to survive the Joining; at the time when Alistair walks out, we are by no means sure of that, and it looks like insisting on Loghain may have actually resulted in a net loss for the organization. NOBODY who says they would do whatever it takes to kill the archdemon is going to let a person who is 100% capable of doing it walk out the door - or get dragged away to execution - in favor of taking a chance that this other guy MIGHT be able to do it if we get lucky. When Alistair threatens to walk, that ought to be the end of the conversation; it should scare Riordan half to death that we have potentially just lost 1/3 of all the Grey Wardens in Ferelden because we offered to recruit a guy he didn't like. We need a body in that place - and even if Alistair is behaving like a baby, at least he's 100% capable of killing the Archdemon. At that point, Loghain is an extreme longshot.

 

Now, of course, if this was a real life scenario, at this point Riordan would say "OK, Landsmeet will take a five-minute recess because I REALLY need to talk to these two other Wardens alone" and then he'd bring us truly up to speed on why we've absolutely got to take this chance. And at this point, I'd probably still suggest Cauthrien instead, since she's a really great fighter, not a criminal, and Alistair won't flip his gourd if she's recruited. Then we'll have four Wardens instead of three, and we can always keep Loghain around as a backup IF she dies during the Joining.

 

It's only the extreme plot contrivances of the scenario that turn this into a zero - sum game that you might actually win by taking Loghain instead of Alistair.

[Lavaeolus]

This is a very intelligent and capable man with immense personal will who, according to every scrap of evidence I have at the time of the decision, hates me passionately and wants me dead.

If you have defeated him, doesn't he say something like "There is something in you that I haven't felt since Maric died?"

 

I mean, yeah, that's not exactly the greatest reason to declare "Oh, he must like me and has reformed entirely!", but it's clear he doesn't hate you that passionately.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

3. Loghain arrives at the Landsmeet still hostile to the Grey Wardens. He is so hostile, he parks his best lieutenant outside the Landsmeet door to prevent Alistair and me from entering the hall to plead our case.

 

At the very least, he's a CRAPPY Game of Thrones player, and you know what happens when you play the Game of Thrones and lose.

 

You die. Period.

With regards to Cauthrien, I never got the impression Loghain was behind that. I thought she was acting on her own initiative. (At the Landsmeet, I mean. I think she went on his orders the first time. @Starlitegirl: If you want to fight her then, do not do so in the main hall. The archers and the mage will *$(#* you. Take it into the room where Anora was being held. You're still going to have a hell of a time, but you're not completely screwed.)

 

I will note that Julius Caesar made a habit of sparing his defeated enemies, and using them as allies and subordinates. And he did pretty well off this for a while. (Of course, I think one of these defeated enemies was named Brutus, so I suppose this kinda helps your case.)

[Mike3207]

As a mage, I usually have time to get off one spell off before the archers start shooting. I Mana Clash the mage and run out of the room.

[DarthGizka]

Every argument in favor of saving Loghain that I've ever thought really was well-thought-out requires that we make omniscient decisions.

I really enjoyed your posts, they are well reasoned and well argumented. Except for one basic fallacy: the question is not whether to 'save' or 'spare' Loghain. The question is whether you give in to the blackmail of a companion who has just proved himself an unreliable flake, and whether you are willing to stoop to murder in order to appease him.

Meta-gamingly you know that you can do whatever you want. You know that you can get away with murder if you so choose, and you know also that you don't need Alistair for anything (nor Loghain, for that matter).

In-role you don't know any of that, although you may be able to guess that an 'accidental' beheading of Loghain won't have any dire consequences for you and your team.

[Sifr]

1. He kidnapped a blood mage prisoner from the Chantry and convinced him to make an assassination attempt on a rival noble. The aftermath of that assassination attempt resulted in the death of many, many people in the village of Redcliffe at the hands of Connor's demon, and the deaths of several of Eamon's knights looking for the Urn of Sacred Ashes when they should have been fighting the darkspawn.  It may also result in the death of one of Eamon's family members.  Yes, that's a executable offense.

 

2. He forced Ferelden citizens into slavery to raise money so he could run his civil war against the Bannorn. Darkspawn are threatening to destroy the country and he's selling people so he can stay in power.  At this point, I don't really care what his INTENTIONS are; sometimes you have to evaluate actions based on the fruit they yield rather than on what was hoped for.  Yes, this is an executable offense.

 

Both these incidents always struck me as being penned from the dark quill of Arl Howe, rather than Loghain. The evidence for Howe is;

 

1: Howe is the type of guy to rely on assassination to get rid of opponents, such as his murder of the Couslands having occurred in all Origins to allow him to acquire the Teynir of Highever. He's also the one who first introduced Zevran to Loghain, making it clear he hired the Antivan Crows on his own initiative and suggesting that he might have used them before. It's also implied that Howe was responsible for Arl Urien not returning from Ostagar, giving him a way to acquire the seat of the Arl of Denerim, having removed Vaughan from the picture by coming to him in friendship before staging yet another coup. Howe being responsible for the poisoning of Arl Eamon therefore makes a lot of sense, since he'd already taken out two of the most important people in Ferelden via assassination or coups.

 

2: Howe is the type of man to resort to magic and hire apostates to do his dirty work. During his attack on the Couslands and in the Arl of Denerim's estate, we see that there are several apostates present in his employ, which makes Howe being the one to hire a known Blood Mage like Jowan far more likely than someone like Loghain doing so.

 

3: Howe seems dismissive of Elves in general, making it more likely that his plan to sell the Elves into slavery came from him, rather than Loghain. After all, the Alienage would now fall under the purview of his new post as the Arl of Denerim, giving him easy access to do so in secret without anyone else finding out.

 

I submit that Loghain's guilt is merely that he signed off on Howe's plans. When you confront him on it at the Landsmeet, he seems disappointed in himself for agreeing to the plan and his attempts to rationalise seem directed more towards himself than anyone else.

 

Does that absolve him of his crimes? Maybe not, but I've always felt that Howe was far more involved than Loghain in all of the dirty dealings that took place during the course of Origins. In the end, it was Loghain's authority and covering for him was simply the means with which he could get away with his crimes. Executing both Howe and Loghain therefore is simply having justice served.

[KaiserShep]

As I've stated before , DAO suffers from tainting the perspective of the PC by giving the player too much meta-knowledge. Both Zevran and Master Ignacio never mention Arl Howe, but they always mention Loghain. In any case, it doesn't matter. In his position, anything and everything his cohorts do is now his responsibility.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think it goes beyond PTSD. Orlais occupied Ferelden for 80 years. He was a commoner living among that, starting from birth. It wasn't just about his war in later years, fighting alongside Maric. His attitude is more akin to a young Polish person growing up amongst Nazi occupation. It's just pure loathing for Orlais.

It's not just loathing. There's a good deal of fear thrown in in both cases.