I always let Alistair decapitate him. The fool double-crossed and tried to kill me, death is the only option.
Should Loghain Live or Die?
Débuté par
ReD BaKen9
, avril 06 2014 03:58
#76
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:20
Sir DeLoria
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#78
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:24
Elhanan
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Loghain allowed Zevran to become involved in this matter, and the world simply has enough libido driven wolves and sharks at the single's bars....
#79
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:29
Althix
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Yes.
i guess we should kill any family in United States or Brazil(as example) who owned slaves then. And Catholic church.
And i guess 'spoils of war' do not ring any bells for you.
#80
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:30
Jigglypuff
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He should live that's what grey wardens would do but Alistair makes everything so complicated.
#81
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:34
Snook
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i guess we should kill any family in United States or Brazil who owned slaves then. And Catholic church.
And i guess 'spoils of war' do not ring any bells for you.
And I guess we should just agree to disagree here before this becomes a really long winded conversation...
#82
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:37
Althix
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as long as you can't provide any reasonable argument why Loghain must die.
Mind you, Warden is a judge in this situation. A judge.
#83
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:39
ShadowLordXII
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Anyway. I ask you people to give me at least one strong argument why Loghain must die.
No personal feelings. For example "he tried to kill Warden." or "Alistair is cute." or "because i feel like it." (<- last one is a reason enough for me, but this argument is not objective.)
Without making him responsible for mistakes/crimes of other people like Howe or Duncan.
Mind you - slavery could be evaluated as a crime(and it is i guess, in given setting), but is it worthy of death? Side note from old Legioneer - if city elves allow other to treat them as cattle, they deserve to be treated as cattle (you may not take this point of view as valid argument.)
Okay, no. You can't expect me to believe that he did not know about Howe's actions. After all, at least one of Howe's victims (a templar) was thrown into Howe's dungeons by Loghain himself. For someone who claims to do whatever it takes to protect Ferelden, he doesn't seem to bat an eye at allowing his fellow Fereldens to be abducted, tortured and worst.
There's also the fact that Howe had just slaughtered the Couslands and yet, Loghain appoints him as Teryn, pretty much condoning the mass murder of one of Ferelden's most loyal and influential families. He may not have been directly involved in all of Howe's atrocities, but he has had enough of a direct partnership and collaboration with the man to count as an accomplice to those atrocities.
Doesn't matter if city elves let people treat them like cattle or not (especially considering that the system is inherently built against them), slavery is against the law. Loghain signed a slave trade contract with the Tevinter Imperium who also include blood mages. He also arranged for Eamon to be poisoned for uncertain, but likely treasonous reasons just to keep him out of the way of whatever he had planned for Cailan. He also framed the Grey Wardens for Cailan's death and turned away vital aid to his nation while the darkspawn march upon his doorstep. Did I also fail to mention that he let his own Terynir fall to the Darkspawn? So great was his neglect of the true threat.
Long story short, I'd love to see an attorney try to defend Loghain in a court against the mountain of evidence piled in favor of a guilty verdict.
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#84
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:58
Shadow of Light Dragon
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On my very first game Alistair dueled and killed Loghain, so I never even knew there was a choice.
When I reloaded to test out alternate endings to the game I did the duel with someone else (my Warden, I think?). On that playthrough she'd intended to make Alistair king, but she was horrified that the thing which motivated him to actually want the throne was parting Loghain's head from his shoulders. She let him kill Loghain against her own moral preference, and privately doubted the wisdom of making him king after all. When Alistair came to tell her afterwards that their romance was over, her first internal reaction was one of relief because it saved her the effort of telling him she didn't want to be with him anymore.
On another reload where the same Warden intended to crown Anora instead (and ended up becoming my canon run), she was still horrified at Alistair's request but able to refuse it on the basis that he didn't want to be king, he'd agreed Anora should be queen -- and here he was trying to renege on that so he could kill Loghain. Now, she didn't like Loghain and she even believed (incorrectly) he'd sanctioned Howe's attack on Highever. But it was because of Highever and her own parents that she couldn't allow Loghain to be executed in front of his daughter, who'd incidentally given them all sorts of help to win the Landsmeet without a coup. Riordan vouched for him, and she figured Riordan's opinion was valid considering he'd been brutally tortured. After Alistair left, however, she did pray to the Maker that the Joining would kill Loghain. :/
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#85
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 09:58
Sir DeLoria
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as long as you can't provide any reasonable argument why Loghain must die.
Mind you, Warden is a judge in this situation. A judge.
Depends on who fights him. If Alistair beats him in a duel of life and death, he has every right to execute his opponent.
I feel worse for the random mooks I have to kill than Loghain.
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#86
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:01
Shadow of Light Dragon
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Word of Gaider is that Loghain didn't authorise, sanction or know about Howe's attack on Highever before it took place.
He still takes Howe on afterwards though, knowingly...
Edit: And, yes, does other horrible things after Howe joins him. Some of them at Howe's suggestion.
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#87
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:15
Althix
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So ok. I don't expect you to believe that, but i also see no direct of evidence that he knew from the start. Templar guy was tainted mind you, also i don't recall any words from him about how he end up in a cell.
As i recall Howe slaughtered Couslands and proclaimed himself as Arl. And that happened before the Battle. Mind you that Howe was a most powerful man in Ferelden, well except for royal family i guess. You do not throw away support of such man when you face a danger like a Blight.
He made some bad decision and bad moves true. Like listening to Howe too much. I am not saying that Loghain is innocent, far from it. However most of the "crimes" prescribed for him, are not directly his.
So for 100% he is guilty in slavery, i can't deny that. He is also indirectly guilty in other crimes. Is it worthy of death? i really don't think so.
As for protecting his own Terynir, it's just a land. He made a right choice at Ostagar and he made the same choice again. And he was right in the end because no Archi - no end of the Blight. Wonder why that Duncan guy actually allowed so many people die, knowing that without killing the Archi, you can't end the Blight.
As for Eamon, it's just a removal of possible threat. Because you know, blood and all. Landsmeet... all that stuff.
#88
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:24
DarthGizka
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Depends on who fights him. If Alistair beats him in a duel of life and death, he has every right to execute his opponent.
No. The terms of the duel were given by Alfstanna:
It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields.
#89
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:37
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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Yeah, the first time I played I wanted him dead. Then Riordan interrupts me with his "make him a warden" speech and I was thinking "shut up you bleeding heart!" and killed Loghain. Then later I found out why Riordan was pestering me. Still, it's odd how he'll become silent if Anora becomes queen and calls for Alistair's execution. What happened to that "we need as many wardens as possible" logic? Someone in Loghain's house is paying him under the table I think.
Yes, there are just so many moments of sheer stupid once you hit the landsmeet that if it were a drinking game, everyone would die of alcohol poisoning.
#90
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:40
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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No. The terms of the duel were given by Alfstanna:
It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields.
Unless you get a nod from the PC warden where you as the player have no power but to watch the whole thing unfold in so many horrendous ways..... will he now declare himself king when he never wanted it? Will he be executed? Will he dump you because you have 'the taint' and can not give him little fetuses? Oh... the stupid that comes with that damn cutscene where I have no control and my PC nods as if I would ever stand there and nod. *sigh*
There really should be a limit to the amount of stupid in any portion of a given game.
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#91
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:46
Ryzaki
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Eh I almost always kill Loghain. I spared him once but honestly? Not worth losing Alistair over. The man's so called expertise arrives too little too late for my PC to care.
Only time I spare Loghain is when I wanna get the Anora & Alistair with living PC and no DR ending. Otherwise I can't really have my PC in character pick Loghain over Alistair after Alistair goes "Pick him and I'm out."
#92
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 10:57
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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I always kill him. I have come to adore his character and would love if he and alistair could stay. I don't mean that I adore loghain for his actions but I find his character and the voice acting and all the maybe he did, maybe he didn't so... fascinating. So I love him for who he is. I actually have a tiny soft spot for the fact that at the core of his being what he did was to protect ferelden from the Orlesians as they did enslave them for nearly a century. So as much as I do feel just in killing him, I also feel like any man who goes to such insane lengths to protect his citizens (in his own point of view here) out of fear they would once again lose their freedom to Orlais can't be all bad. There is something in him that is duty bound to protect his people and his nation. No matter how bad his choices are or that his fears are leaning toward paranoia or even that he's letting the blight take over for fear of the Orlesians, he really is on some level doing it because he doesn't believe it is a blight and he does believe the real threat is Orlais. He states this in one of the cutscenes. For that, I have a soft spot and am actually kind of mad that I couldn't have both him and Alistair for the final battle because any man with that amount of passion over protecting his country is not all bad. He's a complex character. His motivation at its very core is based on false assumptions, fear, concern, paranoia... but that he is that passionate about protecting his country and its people - I kind of love him for that though I do not approve of actions he took.
It really is a shame that they went the either/or way with this. It was such a waste really. I mean, having Alistair and Loghain in your party together could have created some amazing banter. And both characters could have with the aid of some cutscenes had AMAZING arcs. The potential was wasted.. squandered for a silly either/or game choice when it could have really risen above the fray and even if the characters didn't have full arcs - just being able to, for a moment, see the other person's perspective whether they agreed with it or not, that would have been fantastic.
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#93
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 11:12
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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I think this through the entire campaign and roll my eyes whenever a character says otherwise. Characters pat you on the back and say how lucky you are to join the wardens at the start and I'm thinking, "What have you been smoking? I'm lucky to get to die from the joining, die from darkspawn, or die from the taint at a young age?!" Oh, that's right. Hush now. Those are Grey Warden secrets, right? Amazing how they keep those so secretive or so long; especially with people like Anora who blurt out during the Landsmeet that the joining is often fatal. How she came to know about that I have no idea but now the whole courtroom knows.
Let's not forget that the Grey Warden are much like the Night's Watch from A Song of Ice and Fire as they recruit criminals. At least ASOIF gave them a more realistic level of respect; or lack thereof. How respected would an order like the Grey Wardens be that recruited people who were about to be hanged?
So yes, StreetMagic, it's certainly a punishment. Best take advantage of those ignorant fools who look up to you for it in-game while it lasts. lol
My characters see it differently. As a human mage, she sees the wardens as a way out of the circle and a place where she can use her magic abilities to do some good. A chance to prove that mages aren't all some dangerous thing that will become blood mages or demons but who actually have value in the world given they are of strong enough character to not give into the failing that cause many to end up as demons and abominations. She sees it as an opportunity.... one that comes with a price but it was better than sitting in the circle and after she returns to the circle realizes that she might have ended up dead when the blood mages took over, well, now she is certain that the price was probably worth it. And she got to save the circle as well.
My human noble feels like it is her chance to not die. She can fight for the wardens and perhaps some day avenge her family. It is an option that she chooses because death is not preferable. She is a warrior at heart. And now there are two wars she will face. The blight and the one waged against her family. The wardens become a tool she uses and as she does, it gives her more purpose than she has ever had still being somewhat protected by her father before his death. Yes, she will die in thirty years, but she isn't overly concerned with that. It's too far off for her to really care. She has other things on her agenda like ending the blight, avenging her family and stopping loghain's madness.
#94
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 11:33
Xilizhra
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I keep him alive because of his rousing speeches. Impressive. Blatantly brushing aside slavery and blood magic in a few sentences, right in front of everyone. lol
Seriously though, the whole game revolves around you enjoying your time as a Warden or resenting it. You could do as Wynne says, and embrace your role, and crappy lot in life.. or rebel and be unhappy. Loghain offers redemption from that in a way. You make him live through it instead. That's a punishment better than a simple death. I don't believe as Alistair thinks... that's it's some kind of honor to be a Warden. He's a goddamn fool. It's a punishment.
Or just do the Dark Ritual. Heck, the PC's life need never be truly crappy.
My personal inclination is to let him live, but the story has nice aspects if he doesn't as well.
#96
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 12:03
Corker
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My Cousland wanted to spare him, because the Alfstanna said the duel was 'until one party yields,' not to the death; but she compromised her morals to make her lover happy. Even though she'd married him off to Anora and knew a dumping was imminent.
I meant to spare him with my second Warden, a Tabris... I forgot about the 'you nearly got my dad sold into slavery' thing. Killed.
Brosca thought the Landsmeet was a human Proving, so she let hardened!Alistair duel Loghain. Killed, obviously.
Surana took Riordan's hint and spared Loghain.
I thought grumpy!Mahariel would spare him, but I forgot about the elves again. Killed.
If Amell ever gets that far, she'll kill him for personal revenge. She's my only one who really took his actions at and just after Ostagar personally. (Also, she's massively ambitious and wants a puppet!Alistair on the throne to fiddle with.)
I meant to spare him with my second Warden, a Tabris... I forgot about the 'you nearly got my dad sold into slavery' thing. Killed.
Brosca thought the Landsmeet was a human Proving, so she let hardened!Alistair duel Loghain. Killed, obviously.
Surana took Riordan's hint and spared Loghain.
I thought grumpy!Mahariel would spare him, but I forgot about the elves again. Killed.
If Amell ever gets that far, she'll kill him for personal revenge. She's my only one who really took his actions at and just after Ostagar personally. (Also, she's massively ambitious and wants a puppet!Alistair on the throne to fiddle with.)
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#97
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 12:04
Xilizhra
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i guess we should kill any family in United States or Brazil(as example) who owned slaves then. And Catholic church.
And i guess 'spoils of war' do not ring any bells for you.
Kill? Not necessarily, but I would have no issues doing so to anyone who forcefully resisted any attempts to liberate their slaves.
And no, the term does not. Especially not when dealing with actual people.
#98
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 12:19
Ferretinabun
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The whole slavery thing is a huge stain against Loghain. But for my money, the worst thing he did was jeopardise the entire realm at Ostagar. Exactly how he thought he'd be able to face down a Blight with just his soldiers, I have no idea (especially since he was so set against asking for foreign help). As far as I can see, he stabbed Cailan in the back in a power-grab instead of helping to end the threat to the entire kingdom. That's pretty much a d**k-move in my book. And still he claims to work for the good of Ferelden! Ha!
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#99
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 12:26
Rovay
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Loghain never lived through any of my main playthroughs. Either he died by my hand at the Landsmeet or by redeeming himself slightly by killing the Archdemon. That one depended on the Warden going through DR or not. And even on the playthrough with no DR, I made sure that hardened Alistar took the throne and married Anora first.
#100
Posté 06 avril 2014 - 12:50
Shadow Fox
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No. The terms of the duel were given by Alfstanna:
It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields.
And we the Landsmeet shall abide by the result.
Which in my games is Loghain's execution. 
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