3201 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I maintain my interest because they got me hooked on the lore, characters, and big events in the world. I can't simply "move on" from Dragon Age now. And that's why I like DA2. And that's why I already preordered DAI. Even with it's flaws, it's part of something bigger. Not everything boils down to DAO to me. There's a lot I think is weak about that too.

 

I didn't care much for DAII personally and lately I've grown rather contemptuous of DAO for a few reasons. One being that in a few areas it's all a glorified power fantasy.

 

While power fantasy is good, DAO took it to levels that I think games shouldn't do, because many people believe their Warden is right and hasn't done anything wrong.

 

Despite all that, I'm tentatively hopeful DAI will be good.

[TEWR]

I think they made up for some that in DA2... because Hawke is mostly powerless compared to the Warden. Hardly anything goes right, no matter their skill level or wealth. Gaider has said it wasn't meant to be a heroic story, and it definitely gives off that vibe. I'm sort of exasperated by the time it's over.

 

I don't think they made up for it. Whereas DAO gave the player too much power (and not well done at that) DAII didn't give the player enough. They basically just went with the opposite paradigm. DAO would have you do **** and get off scott-free. DAII wouldn't even let you do a lot of things because, let's face it, some of DAII's plot points could be easily grasped (particularly Isabela considering Bioware's attempt to keep it a "Reveal" didn't work when they had Varric mention, long before Act 2's end, that it was a Qunari relic she stole).

 

I mean, Hawke never really attempts to stop **** before it hits the fan. It hits the fan and he tries to keep it from covering his house by using a 3 inch piece of plastic tarp as a shield.

 

Regardless, this is a discussion for elsewhere and I'm just hopeful that DAI will 1) be good, 2) inspire my muse for my story, and 3) won't be compared to my story and people think I'm stealing Bioware's ideas when really... these ideas have been things I've been working on for the last... 3 or four years.

[Jaison1986]

In DA2 you just end up watching the crap hit the fan and even when you see things are about to go south or things like meredith's treatment of the mages is headed to a really bad place, you never get a chance to change it. It's one big waste of time. There was no way to right the course of that ship. By the time you are allowed to deal with it, it's sinking. Fact is, Hawke was utterly useless and ineffectual just cleaning up messes.

 

But this is a discussion for wherever we want to have it.... loghain thread never stays loghain's thread.

 

Eh, it doesn't bother me though. It allows us to have many discussions about small things that are not worth making new threads about it.

 

DA2 plot was a mess, I agree. Hawke unwillingness to act was abismal. 

 

Anders is about to murder an innocent girl. If we don't have enough friendship/rivalry, how about just an option to shove an murder knife on his back?

 

Or how about run after Isabela and let the qunari and tevinter mages kill each other?

 

Or gut Tallis and get the scroll from her?

 

I hope Inquisition branch out this kind of stuff. If an character seems to be about to become trouble, how about an option to kill/arrest them before they can do something bad?

[Sifr]

Might even almost be having some PTSD from the minute Cailan started on about getting help from Orlais. Given what he tells you about what he saw done by Orlesians, I do thing there's PTSD that might be a logical trigger. I don't see him as evil at all. I see him as not believing it is a blight which he says in one of the cutscenes and truly believing that then his obligation is to see the Orlesians don't try to retake ferelden.

 

I know this is probably highly debatable to many but given what he lived through, what he remembers and the fact that he knows the orlesians are coming and he doesn't believe it is a blight AND he is not offered any proof to the contrary by duncan, I really can see his side of things and if I were there watching it from his perspective I would have been very concerned about orlesians coming.

 

Also, I don't see why he has to keep going after the wardens.... there are only a few. Why would he even bother? They could slur him but who would believe them? That's the part that when I examine all of it, I still don't quite see why he goes after them at all.

 

Loghain definitely has a huge aversion to the Orlesians in general and is very hair-trigger when it comes to them. His similar mistrust and dogged pursuit of the Wardens I believe stems from a few related things.

 

1: The Wardens have already been exiled from Ferelden once before, when Sophia Dryden broke their political neutrality and attempted to overthrow King Arland, along with inciting rebellion amongst the nobility. Whether or not he was a tyrant and the Wardens got involved after the rebellion was already starting, no-one really knows, since they ultimately lost. When Loghain mentions the Warden's exile before Ostagar, I always got the feeling that he knew the entire story and that was part of why he didn't trust the Wardens.

 

2: If the Wardens never intervened during the Orlesian Occupation. If the Wardens were willing to take down tyrants and incite rebellion once, why did they never get involved during the Ferelden Rebellion, when power-mad Chevaliers murdered, raped and pillaged their way across the countryside? Again, this would reinforce a belief that their claims of "neutrality" are suspect and entirely self-serving, designed to allow them access to all governments across Thedas. They get involved when they think they can get something from it.

 

3: He doesn't believe it's a true Blight, rather the remnants of a dying order trying to gain more power in Ferelden, using an idealistic and foolish young King to do so. This one doesn't really need explaining since Cailan was pretty much ready to follow the Wardens at the drop of a hat, making him the perfect puppet king for the Wardens to manipulate.

 

4: Orlesian and non-Ferelden Wardens at Ostagar. In addition to the major contingent of Orlesian Wardens, backed by Chevaliers that Cailan wanted to get from Orlais, quite a few of the Origins are non-Fereldans. The Dwarven and the Dalish Wardens can make it pretty clear to him that they don't care about Ferelden or it's King, while DA2 also reveals that the Human Mage is from the Free Marches. Coupled with Duncan being of Rivaini descent, a nationalist like Loghain probably isn't going to be relieved to have all these "foreign" Wardens defending Ferelden. With the Orlesian Wardens and Chevaliers backing them up, Loghain's going to be more concerned of a coup attempt.

 

I'm in the camp that believes that Loghain always thought Ostagar was going to be the staging ground of a coup. Cailan was planning on selling out Ferelden to foreign invaders, using the talk of the Blight as a smokescreen to get forces in and prepared to annex the country back to Orlais, while he chucked Anora for Celene. And we know from RtO that he was partially right about this.

 

He just didn't bank on the Blight being real and the Wardens genuinely being there to take on the Darkspawn, rather than being part of a conspiracy that Loghain convinced himself was there. when it became clear that's what it was, he was left blindsided. Continuing to blame the Wardens and hunt them down was simply damage control to prevent anyone realising how badly he's screwed up!

 

Dead men tell no tales, after all.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't understand why Loghain poisoning Eamon, his main political rival, is such an unforgivable crime even if it was meant to kill. It's not like he stormed the castle and butchered everyone like Howe did.

As for sending assassins. That's how politics work, at least medieval politics, you win the game or you die. I don't see why I should hold it against him that much.

 

The only crime Loghain commits in my eyes is the slavery business, not that I don't agree with the course of action: He needed money and the elves are slaves anyway ( no difference in wording is going to change how they are treated ). The country was facing a national disaster. 

It is still a crime however, at least to us...I do wonder if Fereldans would see it like that: Probably not.

[Lavaeolus]

Now, now, it was the murder of the Couslands he was against, because of how Howe butchered them. That's on Howe, not Loghain -- we don't even know if Loghain knew about it.

 

"Better than Howe": great for any résumé.

[Xetykins]

As you can see in the landsmeet, slavery IS a crime however much you want to justify that it is no different with the current alienage situation. At least there they wont become blood magic battery when the master feels like it. Thwyre being sold to Taventer after all. And attempted murder is a crime too, and it did not matter that he did not intend to kill eamon same with locking up a templar to cover his smellies. Or he would have won the landsmeet specially if hes a hero.

And for the assassin if it was a game he was the only one playing it as the warden was too busy trying to replenish the countless soldiers lost at ostagar for a more pressing issue like the blight. But I guess if you want to cover your stinks desperately, I guess no loose ends right?

[Xetykins]

Now, now, it was the murder of the Couslands he was against, because of how Howe butchered them. That's on Howe, not Loghain -- we don't even know if Loghain knew about it.
 
"Better than Howe": great for any résumé.

The first time you get to eamons estate in denerim my cousland blurted what Howe did. IF ( that is a big if) he did not know it before, well he knows about it then and...... he did not even bat an eyelash. Did he ever wonder how howe got all those titles from?

[Xetykins]

Wait, are you saying that the way life is in the alienage is the same as slavery? Because while life in the alienage clearly has some major unpleasantness to it, it also has good things about it. You have family and friends and support of them. They seem to care about each other for the most part. They do celebrate things. And had the Arl not been at Ostagar, it's likely Vaughn wouldn't have pulled what he did. So that seems more like a rarity than a norm.

I was quoting someone :-/ but my phone is pissing around again.

[Xetykins]

In Loghain's defense, he's got a lot more going on than what Howe is doing. He probably was so steamed about Eamon being upright in front of him that he didn't even fully hear what you say or it didn't fully register or at that point he didn't care because Eamon is standing in front of him when he just yanked Jowan from the chantry to make sure this wouldn't happen. I'd say that he was probably a bit thrown by that in and of itself. I know I would be.

Sure. But when howe was brought up in the landsmeet, he just waved it off like yesterdays dinner.

[Jaison1986]

Poisoning Eamon was an dirty move but still, an smart move. He knew Eamon would rise against him once he heard about Cailan. And it makes sense when Gaider said the poinson was not meant to kill him. Otherwise, he would have instantly died once Connor demon was purged.

 

Gaider also confirmed Loghain only learned about Highever once he returned from Ostagar, and by then, what should he do? Oppose the second most powerful man in the country when it's already divided?

 

I think the slavery issue is the only with no explanation. He did it and it's up to you to decide if he should die for it or not.

[Xetykins]

He waves everything off in one way or another with either justification, rationalization, dismissal or whatever else he uses. It's all perfectly logical to him. Gotta give him credit for truly being the man who does whatever it takes. NOW THERE is the making of a great warden by warden standards. Whatever it takes, baby. Whatever it takes.

Wellll thats one way of justifying and condoning it I suppose. I wonder if you'renthe real life cousland, you would still think the same. But whatever

But now ive vent my rage, im going back to killing this ming-efing elite in eso whos kicked my butt 12x.

[theskymoves]

Poisoning Eamon was an dirty move but still, an smart move. He knew Eamon would rise against him once he heard about Cailan. And it makes sense when Gaider said the poinson was not meant to kill him. Otherwise, he would have instantly died once Connor demon was purged.

 

Gaider also confirmed Loghain only learned about Highever once he returned from Ostagar, and by then, what should he do? Oppose the second most powerful man in the country when it's already divided?

 

I think the slavery issue is the only with no explanation. He did it and it's up to you to decide if he should die for it or not.

 

No matter what the 'official' retcon is now, if the Warden is a Human Noble, the game tells us Loghain knew of the carnage in Highever while he was still at Ostagar, even if he didn't know prior to it happening. From the conversation a Cousland Warden can have if they ask to speak with Loghain at his tent (copy/paste from the toolset for accuracy):

 

Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?
Warden: My father was the teyrn of Highever.

Loghain: The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through.

 

and even if the Warden does not mention their family, Loghain does:

 

Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?
Warden: I've never been out of Highever. (or "No, we've never met.")

Loghain: But you are Bryce's daughter/son. I never forget a face. The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through.

[Xetykins]

No matter what the 'official' retcon is now, if the Warden is a Human Noble, the game tells us Loghain knew of the carnage in Highever while he was still at Ostagar, even if he didn't know prior to it happening. From the conversation a Cousland Warden can have if they ask to speak with Loghain at his tent (copy/paste from the tooset for accuracy):
 
Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?
Warden: My father was the teyrn of Highever.
Loghain: The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through.
 
and even if the Warden does not mention their family, Loghain does:
 
Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?
Warden: I've never been out of Highever. (or "No, we've never met.")
Loghain: But you are Bryce's daughter/son. I never forget a face. The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through.

God danged you for pulling me back here wow I havent seen that convo. Thanks for that !