Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Wellll thats one way of justifying and condoning it I suppose. I wonder if you'renthe real life cousland, you would still think the same. But whatever
But now ive vent my rage, im going back to killing this ming-efing elite in eso whos kicked my butt 12x.
Why must you take it so seriously? I am joking. But look at how he is.... do you honestly expect something else from him? It's like asking a rock to bleed. Ain't gonna happen.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
No matter what the 'official' retcon is now, if the Warden is a Human Noble, the game tells us Loghain knew of the carnage in Highever while he was still at Ostagar, even if he didn't know prior to it happening. From the conversation a Cousland Warden can have if they ask to speak with Loghain at his tent (copy/paste from the toolset for accuracy):
Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?
Warden: My father was the teyrn of Highever.Loghain: The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through.
and even if the Warden does not mention their family, Loghain does:
Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?
Warden: I've never been out of Highever. (or "No, we've never met.")Loghain: But you are Bryce's daughter/son. I never forget a face. The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through.
But if that is the case, and he is in league with Howe, surely by the time you are at the landsmeet he knows Howe not has taken highever. No? Seems like Howe might mention it in passing, if for no other reason than to gloat being the sort of chap he is. This would, to me, explain why Loghain wouldn't bat an eye. Likely Howe gloated about it to him.
I don't see how that dialogue gives us any hint that Loghain already knew about what Howe did. If anything, he sounded rather obvious of it fully expecting Bryce's soldier to come help in the battle.
I don't see how that dialogue gives us any hint that Loghain already knew about what Howe did. If anything, he sounded rather obvious of it fully expecting Bryce's soldier to come help in the battle.
"The king told me of his promise" doesn't show that he knew what had happened? (Where's an 'incredulous' emote when you need one?)
For all anyone knows, Loghain only knew of the attack after the King told him. There's nothing to indicate he had foreknowledge of the attack.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I don't see how that dialogue gives us any hint that Loghain already knew about what Howe did. If anything, he sounded rather obvious of it fully expecting Bryce's soldier to come help in the battle.
I think it was Howe's action alone. His dying words sort of feel like he's jealous of Bryce... same with if you intimidate him. It seemed VERY personal for him. I don't think it was a Loghain sanctioned action at all. I think it was an action he took because of the opportunity he had... the castle with a skeleton crew, Fergus gone, and he didn't seem thrilled that Duncan was there because that would mean more resistance. It looked very much like something Howe planned alone and Loghain found out about after the fact. I used to think Loghain was in on it, but evidence is scant at best. Given what we know about howe in game, it just seems like an opportunistic grab for power. Loghain's main problem was Eamon and look at how he dealt with him. Poison that did not kill him. That to me says that he would not have wanted the Couslands murdered in cold blood. He just went straight for eamon and not with an intent to kill him or he would have died.
For all anyone knows, Loghain only knew of the attack after the King told him. There's nothing to indicate he had foreknowledge of the attack.
I think that's exactly what I said:
No matter what the 'official' retcon is now, if the Warden is a Human Noble, the game tells us Loghain knew of the carnage in Highever while he was still at Ostagar, even if he didn't know prior to it happening..
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
"The king told me of his promise" doesn't show that he knew what had happened? (Where's an 'incredulous' emote when you need one?)
He learned of what happened AT ostagar. By the time you meet him at the landsmeet, it's old news to him. You think he would be surprised when he already knew it was Howe who did it back in ostagar? Old news.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I think that's exactly what I said:
Ah, from the posts back and forth is seemed like you and Xetykins were in agreement that Loghain was involved. Opps. My bad. Begging your forgiveness....
He learned of what happened AT ostagar. By the time you meet him at the landsmeet, it's old news to him. You think he would be surprised when he already knew it was Howe who did it back in ostagar? Old news.
Is this directed at me? Because I just posted the dialogue, a bit up thread, that shows that Loghain learned about Highever (if the Warden is a Cousland) while still at Ostagar, and not after his return to Denerim.
Howe was rewarded substantially, both with Highever and Denerim. As he took Highever with forces diverted from Ostagar, he needed Loghain's connivance to use these men - they both knew the extra men would not be needed in Ostagar as Loghain would not be fighting.
A statement about the Couslands simply shows his sadistic humor -the only thing that could bring Howe to justice is a king. And to that: Duncan tells Cailan when you get to Ostagar something like, "had we not escaped he would have told you any story he wished."
Of course Cailens imminent death must have made it all particularly amusing.
I have no doubt he gloated: doesn't Howe say to the HN: "I managed to make everyone forget you" when finally confronted? It appears the Couslands had few friends.
Or Howe tortured and killed people that sided with you. He was the butcher of Denerim.
Early in the game as Cousland it stated that your father was seen as a better leader than king Cailen. I would have to play it again to get to that part.
My bad-read the post wrong.
There's a codex in Awakening that suggests that Howe's captain was worried that someone would reveal the attack plans to the Couslands and that it was a concern of his men as well. I think Howe wanted to do everything in his power to keep the attack secret.
and of course the Kings greatest noble supporters probably died beside him. Eamon was likely the only major noble left after Ostagar to oppose Howe and Loghain.Or Howe tortured and killed people that sided with you. He was the butcher of Denerim.
I think that's exactly what I said:
As a Cousland I have no love for Loghain. If for no other reason, Howe is his right hand and he didn't take actions against Howe. I know Cailen promised me he would take action against Howe.
So poisoning eamon is cool with you. And murdering the couslands... and taking Arl of Denerim's estate... yeah, good to know you have limits. Slavery is where you draw the line. Not poisoning or murder of an entire noble family... which was clearly not the norm within the context of the game.
Eliminating political rivals through poisoning, assassination etc is an acceptable practice in my books. What happened in Highever with the massacre of the Couslands is not due to the needless deaths it caused: Howe could have eliminated them without butchering the entire household.
I disagree it's not the norm in the game to poison a rival: Missed the part of the Antivan Crows did you?
With regards to Denerim: I don't disagree with what he did but rather called it for what it was: A crime.
Why should I care that Howe took over the Arl of Denerim's estate though? Oh the torture part...common place and acceptable.
Sure. But when howe was brought up in the landsmeet, he just waved it off like yesterdays dinner.
Howe was dead so did it matter by then? Loghain knew what Howe did but only after the fact. Should he have besieged Denerim with his demoralized army after he had returned from Ostagar since Howe had taken the North and the capital.
"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider
Howe and Loghain in bed together... now there's a picture I'll NEVER get out of my head. 
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider
This shows also how bad Loghain is with people. You hear the nobles talking in the tavern about Howe. They know what he is like. How did Loghain miss this? Or did he just overlook it? Or is this a bit of a retcon.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Is this directed at me? Because I just posted the dialogue, a bit up thread, that shows that Loghain learned about Highever (if the Warden is a Cousland) while still at Ostagar, and not after his return to Denerim.
Yes it was but I misunderstood what you wrote and thought the implication was that he knew BEFORE ostagar. Sorry about that. My bad. Please accept my apology.
"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider
In YOUR books the torture and poisoning are acceptable but clearly not in ferelden or I would have lost the landsmeet. All these Loghain defenses are all running in theories while the evidence says otherwise. But that does not make you wrong, its about how you play your game. Right?
Except that neither the poisoning OR the torture deal brings you points in the Landsmeet.
Only two nobles support you with regards to the torture but ONLY because it involved their family members, if you don't contact either of them then they will not care either.
Hell Sighard won't help you even then if you don't specifically ask for the payment to be his support in the Gnawed Noble. So no they don't give a ****.
Bringing up the slavery issue gets Bann Sighard to support you. You'll generally already have gained his support by freeing his son, but if you haven't it'll win him over and get him to side with the Warden.
Bringing up the poisoning will earn you Grand Cleric Elemena's support (worth 2 points) if you also completed the "Lost Templar" quest, but I think that's more to do with how he used an apostate.
Except that neither the poisoning OR the slavery deal brings you points in the Landsmeet. Only one noble is outraged...until he hears about the situation concerning elves then no one cares about it.
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