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Should Loghain Live or Die?

Débuté par ReD BaKen9 , avril 06 2014 03:58

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#1051
Xetykins
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:47

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Bringing up the slavery issue gets Bann Sighard to support you. You'll generally already have gained his support by freeing his son, but if you haven't it'll win him over and get him to side with the Warden.
 
Bringing up the poisoning will earn you Grand Cleric Elemena's support (worth 2 points) if you also completed the "Lost Templar" quest, but I think that's more to do with how he used an apostate.


Thank you. I did not know the cleric was 2 points. I thought it was only 1 and only anora gives 2.

#1052
Costin_Razvan
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:47

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 Really now. So why is it that if I choose the option about ostagar and alistair I will surely loose the landsmeet but not when I pick the torture, slavery and poisoning?  

Because trying to bring up either Alistair or Ostagar is a failed argument. There is no proof for either argument besides you claiming it.
 

 

 

 Bringing up the poisoning will earn you Grand Cleric Elemena's support (worth 2 points) if you also completed the "Lost Templar" quest, but I think that's more to do with how he used an apostate.

That's only if you bring up the apostate part, as you mentioned. It's not about the act of poisoning itself.

 

So no proof that they care about torture, unless we are talking about specific family members, or about poisoning unless it has to do with a templar being arrested.


#1053
Lavaeolus
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:49

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Anora's worth 3 points, hence why she can often be the deciding factor (and why she's probably responsible for hundreds of playthroughs where the Warden loses after everyone but one guy votes for them).

 

I don't think bringing up torture nets you any points, though if you freed his son Sighard chimes in IIRC. But it is, you know, his son. Gonna be pissed.


#1054
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:52

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Except that neither the poisoning OR the torture deal brings you points in the Landsmeet. 

Only two nobles support you with regards to the torture but ONLY because it involved their family members, if you don't contact either of them then they will not care either.

 

Hell Sighard won't help you even then if you don't specifically ask for the payment to be his support in the Gnawed Noble. So no they don't give a ****.

 

No they don't. They only care when it is personal. That is why you have to meet with them. They are a hideous bunch. Only when they are personally slighted do they care. Couslands in my opinion were probably the only decent ones. Even Eamon only cares because he wants to protect the precious bloodline. Look how he shipped alistair off the minute it was not convenient for him yet he expects him to be king out of some duty though he was never even treated like a human being. He lived in the stable for Maker's sake, until he was shipped off to the chantry. Yeah, all the nobles could use a good rounding up. Let them all burn I say. There's nobody in there worth a damn.


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#1055
Costin_Razvan
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:53

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This is why I blame the Bannorn for the Civil War and not Loghain. Seriously there's a short story in the codex about how they started a war over a tree.

A ****** TREE. I say execute them all.


#1056
Lavaeolus
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:54

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Could be worse. At least we're not in Orlais.


#1057
Costin_Razvan
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:56

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I don't see how Orlais is worse. Sure there's the game, but that's mostly maneuvering with little violence compared to Fereldan.


#1058
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:57

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Bringing up the slavery issue gets Bann Sighard to support you. You'll generally already have gained his support by freeing his son, but if you haven't it'll win him over and get him to side with the Warden.

 

Bringing up the poisoning will earn you Grand Cleric Elemena's support (worth 2 points) if you also completed the "Lost Templar" quest, but I think that's more to do with how he used an apostate.

 

I noticed that if I bring the ring to Alfstanna then use that in the landsmeet, I have everyone on my side (if I go with the tortured son as well) except for the one who is set to support Loghain no matter what... but you have to lead with the blight to get everyone. There's the one from the south that sits in the corner of the tavern when you walk into it. If you don't lead with the blight you won't get him. Leading with the blight also gets Alfstanna right away. I don't think you have to complete the lost templar quest to get the cleric. She speaks out regardless probably because giving the ring to Alfstanna triggers it. I only did the lost templar once but whenever I bring up the poisoning issue she jumps in regardless.


#1059
Xetykins
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:57

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Then in that case if those things are the norm in ferelden there should be an overriding factor there that makes you not gain points. Specially when the person in question is supposed to be the hero and well respected person in ferelden. That means those votes from those family members shouldnt count. But at the end of the day they did.

#1060
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 10:59

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This is why I blame the Bannorn for the Civil War and not Loghain. Seriously there's a short story in the codex about how they started a war over a tree.

A ****** TREE. I say execute them all.

 

They all are worthless. Cailan was actually pretty sweet. Naive and clearly not king material but he cares when you tell him what happened in the alienage as a CE. He seems rather troubled by it and says that his men won't let him go there. He also is equally upset about Howe's treachery and killing the couslands. I think he's the only decent one in the bunch.


#1061
Xetykins
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:02

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Iirc the cleric was pissed because he locked up a templar. If you take alistair down there he'd say " the grand cleric will be spitting hot coals if she knew" because the crown has no authority over templars or something like that.

#1062
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:03

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Then in that case if those things are the norm in ferelden there should be an overriding factor there that makes you not gain points. Specially when the person in question is supposed to be the hero and well respected person in ferelden. That means those votes from those family members shouldnt count. But at the end of the day they did.

 

Well, I think it's meant to show how things work. It's all personal. And I think if you ever let loghain live you really understand why Alistair would not make a good king... because he is good and not cunning or shrewd. Basically I think loghain says he would give away the throne piece by piece to that pack of wolves (paraphrasing here and he might not have called them a pack of wolves... ). This is why I maintain he is not king material. Against these kinds of people, you need someone like anora who can play them and work them and be strong and shrewd and cunning.


#1063
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:05

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Iirc the cleric was pissed because he locked up a templar. If you take alistair down there he'd say " the grand cleric will be spitting hot coals if she knew" because the crown has no authority over templars or something like that.

 

Yes, but that's how you win the points. She doesn't care about anything but that her templar's power was overruled and they threw him in a dungeon. So the chantry is no better. Her main issue is more about Loghain's disregard for the Chantry who has total power.


#1064
Costin_Razvan
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:08

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Then in that case if those things are the norm in ferelden there should be an overriding factor there that makes you not gain points. Specially when the person in question is supposed to be the hero and well respected person in ferelden. That means those votes from those family members shouldnt count. But at the end of the day they did.

 

But it's their own personal votes that are counted there, not others.


#1065
Xetykins
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:10

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I dont need to let loghain live. I've got youtube for that and ive scoured them all cus I want to play the game in a different way and I want to get the redeemer achievement. I thought youtube could make me love loghain a bit. But I guess I will never get it.

#1066
Xetykins
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:14

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But it's their own personal votes that are counted there, not others.


Still I said that if those things are legal and normal that means their votes wouldnt count. You wouldnt get any points at all regardless. It should be as worthless than bringing up alistair and ostagar.

#1067
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:26

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I dont need to let loghain live. I've got youtube for that and ive scoured them all cus I want to play the game in a different way and I want to get the redeemer achievement. I thought youtube could make me love loghain a bit. But I guess I will never get it.

 

Well, if you see his intent as being the protector of ferelden, and if you see that as sort of his archetype, a protector of sorts, and factor in that he really and truly didn't believe it was a blight and that Orlais was coming, while his actions are not something one can dismiss, there is something about his passion to protect ferelden from what he believed would be another occupation or attempt at one that makes you understand what drove him to such horrible choices. He clearly was not proud of what he did. He justifies it and rationalizes it which is the mark of a person who is NOT okay with it or else they would just be 'yeah, so what? It's war' but he has to make it work in his mind. Bring up the slavery and in the midst of his justification, it looks like he's even trying to convince himself of it. I don't believe he wanted to take these actions. I believe he had some kind of PTSD that was triggered by Cailan's insistence on bringing in Orlais and then he saw no evidence of a blight so he turned his troops to save them to keep Orlais from reoccupying Ferelden. From that point of view, while it doesn't forgive or justify his actions, it can be seen as a protector serving his country and making terrible choices under pressure from what he thinks will be another occupation. None of his logic is really sound. It's all sort of crazy but you are seeing a man who sees one threat... Orlais, who is totally blind to the blight probably in part because he knows Orlais is coming AND he's got issues with Wardens.

 

Big picture, he did horrible things, but he was a bit off his rocker out of panic that Orlais was coming.


#1068
MisterJB
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:27

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I see no reason to kill Loghain.

He is a better general than Alistair thus, he will be more useful and since I intend to make him king, anyway, Alistair shouldn't be risking himself on the frontlines.


#1069
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:31

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I see no reason to kill Loghain.

He is a better general than Alistair thus, he will be more useful and since I intend to make him king, anyway, Alistair shouldn't be risking himself on the frontlines.

 

In this case that is a logical choice and makes absolute sense. If you haven't romanced him, the impact of how he feels about you becomes irrelevant. This is where female PCs that romanced him get screwed. If you are practical about it, tough luck for you. No reasoning with Alistair who wants revenge. But as a king, he shouldn't be in the front lines, especially given all they just went through to get there. I personally don't think he should be king, but for those who do, this is a tactically sound choice. Let loghain be the archdemon cookie.


#1070
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 avril 2014 - 11:37

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Because trying to bring up either Alistair or Ostagar is a failed argument. There is no proof for either argument besides you claiming it.
 

 

 

That's only if you bring up the apostate part, as you mentioned. It's not about the act of poisoning itself.

 

So no proof that they care about torture, unless we are talking about specific family members, or about poisoning unless it has to do with a templar being arrested.

 

Yes. They do not care unless it is personal. Bringing up the blight first, while it seems like the smart point only brings in the two people who are immediately threatened or have lost land because of it. Alfstanna about the bannorn, I think and the bann that sits in the corner of the tavern during all the denerim questline who has lost the south, his land, to the blight. Those two are the only ones who chime in if you bring up the blight which has had a direct impact on them or will have a direct impact on them. Nobody else cares. Not really. Don't bring up the blight and I think you don't get anyone in that first round. I think it goes to loghain or something. I once lost the landsmeet because I stupidly forgot to stop at the tavern. Nothing I said was enough and I led with the blight (though I don't know it that nets you points - I think it gets you that one bann who lost his land in the south).


#1071
Costin_Razvan
Posté 29 avril 2014 - 01:28

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Still I said that if those things are legal and normal that means their votes wouldnt count. You wouldnt get any points at all regardless. It should be as worthless than bringing up alistair and ostagar.

I disagree. They as nobles do not need to provide a justification for why they vote in a certain way. There is no court of law in Fereldan that has authority over the nobility.


#1072
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Posté 29 avril 2014 - 02:09

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I disagree. They as nobles do not need to provide a justification for why they vote in a certain way. There is no court of law in Fereldan that has authority over the nobility.

 

Case and point, howe can slaughter the couslands in cold blood and nobody really bats an eye, do they? Sure he ends up dead, but had he not, what do you think would have happened? Not a damn thing unless the king did something which he was a little too busy being dead to do. And I suspect Howe knew that would be a likely outcome which was another reason why he made the power grab if he was already aligned with Loghain. If there was some kind of law system, you would think murdering nobility would be top priority. Apparently not. You are recognized by most nobility but the ones who know of what happened don't seem to give it more than the bat of an eye.


#1073
Xetykins
Posté 29 avril 2014 - 06:06

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I disagree. They as nobles do not need to provide a justification for why they vote in a certain way. There is no court of law in Fereldan that has authority over the nobility.


Somehow I really doubt anything goes in ferelden. Even if there is no writen law ( I'd like to see evidence on this) there had to be a dos and donts. Otherwise whatshisname would not say "there is no slavery in ferelden" and in that case Loghain being a noble and a hero and the fact that its in the middle of the blight, would not be in deep sht. If that is the case they couldnt afford to loose their general specially when shts are hitting the fan.
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#1074
Cobra's_back
Posté 29 avril 2014 - 04:51

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I disagree. They as nobles do not need to provide a justification for why they vote in a certain way. There is no court of law in Fereldan that has authority over the nobility.

 

Actually if they all vote against you then they have judged you. I always get all of them to vote against Loghain and then kill him.

 

Some nobles were against Loghain but were afraid to move against him. There are laws but he who has the biggest army tends to win. Bann Alfstanna told my Cousland that she would support he/she taking back their land. She had no love for Howe and she really didn't like Loghain even before you tell her about her brother.

 

Listen in on the conversation before you go to " Rescue the Queen" and she did not approve of Anora as Queen. It is just fear of losing the war that holds them back.


#1075
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Posté 29 avril 2014 - 04:56

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Actually if they all vote against you then they have judged you. I always get all of them to vote against Loghain and then kill him.

 

Some nobles were against Loghain but were afraid to move against him. There are laws but he who has the biggest army tends to win. Bann Alfstanna told my Cousland that she would support he/she taking back their land. She had no love for Howe and she really didn't like Loghain even before you tell her about her brother.

 

Listen in on the conversation before you go to " Rescue the Queen" and she did not approve of Anora as Queen. It is just fear of losing the war that holds them back.

 

Is this about Alfstanna in the game? I'd love to see it! She's the one noble I actually kind of like because she offers the HN help.


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