3201 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

All things considered, I wouldn't have minded had BW put a more experienced Warden into the PC's squad, as they apparently intended at some point. A Warden that already knew may keep that tid-bit to himself, having made up his mind to go do the deed claiming seniority.

 

 

 

While I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, this would have really p****ed me off. At the time, there are 2 Wardens in Ferelden and they are both fighting on a regular basis and could be killed at any time - if not for the game mechanics that is.

Riordan is fine because he thought that Allistair and the PC already knew but a Warden that is in your party and just keeps this info for themselves throughout the game because they want to run the lone wolf routine? No, not acceptable.

It's basically the same selfish thinking that Allistair shows at the Landsmeet if you let Loghain live.

BTW, I don't really think it was completely out of character for Allistair to react like that. Granted, I think if you romanced him and with max approval, I think there should have been an option for a difficult persuasion and I think the PC should have had a few more options to put up an argument in that situation but all in all, that scene just shows what kind of a person Allistair really is. After that, I had no problem letting him go to become a drunk. I did save his live from Anora for all that happened before but there are no regrets from my PCs side. Sadness of how it ended, sure but she is sure that she did the right thing there.

 

In terms of a story, it was actually quite good, I thought and certainly an unexpected twist to te whole romance plot this time around. So I would still give Kudos to David Gaider and his team. Just lost pretty much all respect for the Allistair character but I guess that's what was supposed to happen.

[Ryzaki]

This ^^

 

How extensively have I written about this whole craptastic scenario? It's just some of the worst writing ever. Not so much that alistair wants him dead because I get that. But the fact that Riordan who is nothing more than a chess piece that serves two purposes - to get loghain as a warden and to tell you about the death consequence at the last possible moment... it's just so terribly done... so clearly contrived and a way to manipulate the player.

 

I honestly can't stand all the crap they do with alistair that turns him into a total douchebage like 70% of the time if you don't do everything just right - IF you have romanced him. There are more ways it can go wrong than right, and I do not count being his mistress as one of the ways it goes right because who wants that unless they were only marginally interested and had already started contemplating running off with Zevran...

 

My mages and city elves became mistress because Alistair + Anora seemed to be a very well balanced pair for the kingdom it also gave her a foothold in politics and greater influence on the outcome of her people and Alistair gave her words more power and influence than lone Anora would've. She wasn't remotely interested in Zevran. It was a beneficial outcome that still allowed her to be with the man she loved. Thanks for inferring though anyone who chose mistress ending wanted to sleep around though. Real nice.

[Ryzaki]

And as Alistair points out, the shortened lifespan alone would seriously curtail recruitment.  What would "oh, yeah, someone has to die to kill an archdemon" do?

 

Considering they're recruiting murderers, thieves and people who have no other option I don't see that having a very high influence anyway. Archdemons aren't common and almost always there's wardens that are close to becoming ghouls to take one out anyway. Dying in a blaze of glory stopping the blight would probably be much preferable than dying as a failure or a shame.

[Xetykins]

Ryzaki you harlot!

[Chashan]

While I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, this would have really p****ed me off. At the time, there are 2 Wardens in Ferelden and they are both fighting on a regular basis and could be killed at any time - if not for the game mechanics that is.

Riordan is fine because he thought that Allistair and the PC already knew but a Warden that is in your party and just keeps this info for themselves throughout the game because they want to run the lone wolf routine? No, not acceptable.

It's basically the same selfish thinking that Allistair shows at the Landsmeet if you let Loghain live.

 

It may have served as some dramatic tension between the PC, the Veteran Warden and possibly Loghain, though. Character-wise, this hypothetical Vet' would have been quite different from 'stair, I imagine. Not disclosing that information may have been a coping mechanism for him as he'd have his clear way out to go out with glory and follow his fallen brethren, and to save the PC from that in case they'd have grown close, or simply out of a sense of duty as the most senior Warden present. Which could still have been challenged in conversation, of course, talking Loghain into doing Morrighan's ritual also requires persuasion, after all.

 

Course was not meant to be, but I could have seen potential therein.

[TheWarden]

Made him Grey Warden 

[Darkly Tranquil]

Barring the one occasion I recruited Loghain for the achievement (and then fed him to the Archdaemon), I kill the heck out of Loghain every time.

 

I must confess I find it hard to find any redeeming qualities in Loghain; my impression of him is a deeply arrogant and deluded man who believes entirely too much of his own legend. It seems that Loghain thinks that only he knows what is best for Ferelden, that only he is capable of defending it, and that all things are justified in the pursuit of that goal. The problem with all that is that he seems to adopt the "destroy the village in order to save it" approach to Ferelden's troubles. In the pursuit of his goals he disregards everything Ferelden stands for; he kills the king (disregarding the legacy of the nations founder), he sells Ferelden citizens into slavery (disregarding the Ferelden love of freedom), and he attempts to bully the Landsmeet into submission (disregarding Ferelden's system of government); he is so blinded by his fervour to defend (his idea of Ferelden) that he can't see that he's is destroying it through his arrogance. I don't think Loghain is "evil" per se, or that he is motivated by ambition, but that he is driven by a combination of paranoia and misguided patriotism laced with arrogant belief that only he can protect Ferelden. Unfortunately for everyone, he's wrong on almost every count, and his stubborness and pride nearly destroys everything he claims to care about.

 

I tend to agree with the people who suggest that the fatal tipping point with Loghain was when Cailan stopped doing what Loghain told him. I suspect that Loghain had reached a point where he felt only he could be trusted to protect Ferelden properly and anyone who got in the way would be removed, even if hit were his King and son-in-law. I think that had Maric not gone on his trip to the Marches, eventually he would have done something Loghain disagreed vehemently with and he would have turned on him.

 

I've read The Stolen Throne, and while it went some way to explaining why he is the miserable sod that he is, but it did nothing to make me feel any sympathy or empathy for him whatsoever.

 

Playing in character and without meta-knowledge, I would not trust him not to betray me (since he has a track record of doing that sort of thing) the moment I turned my back on him. He's already proved himself to be a singularly ruthless and treacherous individual (regardless of his allegedly noble motives) and for that reason, he gets the chop at the Landsmeet.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

His arrogance isn't always about himself. It's about Fereldens. It's patriotism gone awry. He's Joe the Plumber. "USA! USA! USA!" He believes if they just mustered up the same courage as they did against Orlais, "they can defeat the blight itself".

Though to be fair, the most incontrovertible (if not the only or most obvious) reason he's wrong is something he didn't know and shouldn't have been expected to.

[darkmanifest]

Though to be fair, the most incontrovertible (if not the only or most obvious) reason he's wrong is something he didn't know and shouldn't have been expected to.

 

Wait, what didn't he know? That a horde of darkspawn ate a huge chunk of Ferelden's defenses? That once he pulled his own men out of the south, without any reinforcements from Orlais or Weisshaupt because the borders were sealed, and with Redcliffe and the Circle in a mess due to his own actions, there would be nothing holding back the advancement of the horde while he played politics? How could he not be expected to know that? I can't think of any reasons other than pure arrogance - like he sincerely believed that the same people who drove out the Orlesians despite overwhelming odds would have the same chances against hundreds of poisonous monsters.

[ShadowLordXII]

He saw that they were getting their asses kicked. What he didn't know is that he needed to save Wardens, because they're needed to kill archdemons. That's the only thing I can't blame him for not knowing. I didn't know that either, until the end of the game.

 

Instead, he let them fend for themselves. "Let them handle themselves. Lets see how the Legendary Wardens get out of this one without me. If they're so badass, I'm not needed here."

 

That's how I see his reasoning. It's pure spite. He was probably sick of all of the b.s. surrounding Warden legends.

 

So he was so fed up with warden legends that he lets thousands of his own countrymen to die just to spite 2 dozen wardens?

 

Yeah, I doubt he was that vainful in Ostagar and this is coming from someone who believes that he was justified in retreating during the battle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you have a better reason why he did it, I'm all ears. It seems that way to me.

 

He says he feels bad and remembers his countrymen. Maybe that's why he willingly sacrifices himself (if you let him). He won't apologize for his other opinions, but he will apologize for that.

Actually, Ostagar is pretty much the only thing he doesn't concede was a mistake. (I think. I don't really remember whether or not I ever heard his dialogue about the alienage.) Anyway, even after he's been punished for his numerous crimes, Ostagar among them, if you take him to Ostagar during RtO he's quite adamant that he had no choice that wasn't retreating.

[TEWR]

Actually, Ostagar is pretty much the only thing he doesn't concede was a mistake. (I think. I don't really remember whether or not I ever heard his dialogue about the alienage.) Anyway, even after he's been punished for his numerous crimes, Ostagar among them, if you take him to Ostagar during RtO he's quite adamant that he had no choice that wasn't retreating.

 

He considers his retreat from Ostagar justified and won't apologize for that, but he does feel bad for all of the men that had to lose their lives. It's hard to really explain, aside from "What I did when the signal went up was the right call, but the hundreds of lives lost still weighs heavily on me. Those men had no hope of success... and nothing I could've done would've given them any."

 

He doesn't apologize for slavery, but I was playing a Dalish. Maybe it's different on a City Elf. He says he has more important crimes on his conscience. lol

 

Well, I wouldn't say he doesn't apologize at all. Him admitting it's a crime is to me an apology of a sort. He just thinks that, as you said, Ostagar being a greater crime is the one that keeps him up at night. But he also tells you that after the army would've been resupplied once the war chest was filled, the Elves would have themselves been outfitted with weapons and armor. And it's not like they would've known what caused them to be supplied. The slavery thing was hidden from everyone, and even Shianni had nothing concrete to go off of. She knew something was up because a few people hadn't returned, but that was it.

 

And I think the question Loghain poses is one that isn't as easy to answer as one might think. What is worse? To live as a slave or to die without hope?

 

Both are horrible, but what's the lesser of two evils?

[Vicious]

He deserves death, but his head would make an ugly trophy.

[KaiserShep]

Trophies are for wieners, unless it's the skull of the archdemon.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

"Should" is a risky word to use on this forum, tbh.    The sparing or killing Loghain argument has been argued to death.

 

My personal opinion is that not all of Loghains actions can be justified, and I am not justifying his over-look of slavery, like at all. That is the main reason in my main playthrough, he is dead. It's merely that people see him in a very black light and not the grey that he is. He did what he did out of pure love for his country and paranoia, not greed. He isn't greedy for the throne, he is desperate to see his country safe and in the midst of his paranoia and stress he is forgetting the main threat, the Darkspawn. 

 

The battle at Ostagar is the biggest topic of debate. Loghain, ultimately, did the right thing, in my opinion. Not only was it a terrible strategy, and shows how lazy the writers were writing Loghain (lol @ Gaider who literally said you were betraying Alistair by siding with Loghain. My Warden doesn't owe Alistair crap, I'm not his buddy buddy or whatever you were trying to do. The blatant favourtism is disturbing.). He is one of the most talented strategists but the battle of Ostagar was the worst strategy in battle like, ever. Also did anyone notice how Cailan went against Loghains strategy? Loghain said to draw the Darkspawn to him, but instead Cailan charges off in the open like the idiot that he is, probably for his ~blaze of glory~.

 

Anyways, people can hate Loghain and I for sure used to when I played DA:O for the first time, but as the game went on, and when I tried to understand why I hate him so much, I came up shorthanded. It's like I hate Petrice but I adore how she is written, like I adore how Loghain is written.

 

Loghain is layers of interesting development, how war breaks people, how paranoia breaks people, and it's sad he is reduced to petty angst for Alistair.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I feel bad if it offends Gaider that I'm "betraying" Alistair in his mind. Not because of Alistair, but because of Gaider. I'm a fan. I just love to hate Alistair. What can I say?

 

He also created Loghain too. And Morrigan, who hates Alistair more than anyone. And I love Shale to death. All his characters. I hope that makes up for betraying Alistair

 

I never understood why he even said it was betrayal, like we owed Alistair or the Wardens anything. Duncan left a bitter taste in my Mahariels mouth, and the only reason he saved your Wardens life was because he saw the potential in you to use you in a war. And during the span of meeting Alistair to the Landsmeet, some Wardens don't even befriend him, so idk what loyalty Gaider was talking about. 

[Mike3207]

Alistair is sort of a buddy up until the Landsmeet. It's just that the Landsmeet proves he's way out of his depth.Overall, I just agree with Anora that she is a better choice for ruler, unless of course you go down the Hardened Alistair path.

 

Loghain-I think you need his military skills in the future. For that reason, i need a very strong RP reason to kill him.