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[Jaison1986]

I also don't get why Loghain is the only companion that gets the short end of the stick. What about the other companions that we got along the story? Aren't they just as bad? Sten is an murderer, and so is Zevran, Isabela, Anders and Fenris. Why Loghain creates this killing instinct on the players that the other companions don't?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I also don't get why Loghain is the only companion that gets the short end of the stick. What about the other companions that we got along the story? Aren't they just as bad? Sten is an murderer, and so is Zevran, Isabela, Anders and Fenris. Why Loghain creates this killing instinct on the players that the other companions don't?

Anders gets some hate too, and I think there's some players who off Zevran. As for the rest of it, we watch Loghain do what he did, and have a companion that a number of people like actively calling for Loghain's blood. Furthermore, much of the game is spent dealing with Loghain's efforts to thwart the player as well as unintentional repercussions from Loghain's own actions. (Though I think it's unfair to blame him for the Circle, as his part in that was indirect and backfired mostly by chance and by Wynne's interference.)

 

I'll also note that none of the other companions (apart from maybe Anders, though again there are people who decide he needs to die) ever did anything of this scale before. Sten killed off a farmhold, Fenris killed off a small group of warriors (I think, since he's implied to have done so single-handedly) and Zevran's largest battle to date was one where he acted as a soldier who killed enemies personally rather than as the general who sends entire armies out to kill and die.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I also don't get why Loghain is the only companion that gets the short end of the stick. What about the other companions that we got along the story? Aren't they just as bad? Sten is an murderer, and so is Zevran, Isabela, Anders and Fenris. Why Loghain creates this killing instinct on the players that the other companions don't?

 

I despise Anders. He is the only companion I truly hate in DA. He is all levels of gross and directly approves of slavery and even in Awakenings talks about how cosy Tevinter would be and telling Velanna she has a "chip on her shoulder" because of her hatred for humankind after the slaughter and slavery of her race. And the hypocritical conversations with Merrill to top it off.

 

I don't even hate Loghain as much as I do Anders and that says a lot, tbh.

 

Loghain gets the shortstick because, let's face it, the writers are one-sided during the whole Landsmeet and made it so Anora and Loghain were ~the true bad guys~ and that the Wardens are heroes and that Alistiar is the only true king or whatever. A lot of people ignore Anora and Loghain as individual characters which really sucks.

[MrFob]

Wait a minute, you have to ask why Loghain gets the short end of the stick? Well let's see, he outlawed and hunted the group the player belongs to, he tried to have the player character killed personally on more than one occasion (Zevran being the most notable). He made a huge tactical mistake and thereby endangered the nation of the player character and he did so most likely with personal power gain as at least partial motivation. He made a deal with tewinter slavers, thereby condoning slavery (of his own people by the way). He instigated a civil war in order to set himself up as a ruler. He oppressed Denerim and Highever through Howe (or at least didn't do anything against it). He used the help of a known blood mage to poison one of the players most important allies. Not to mention he's generally a rather arrogant and unpleasant fellow to be around.

 

That's not one sided propaganda writing. Rather it was clearly the writers intent to write a character that is easy to dislike in the first place and it is very easy to understand why most player would hate Loghain.

There is really no great mystery here.

All the other companions, at least in DA:O try to help the player. This guy doesn't (at least until the very end and even then, it is unclear wherther he genuinely tries to help the player or just himself).

 

Does he need to die because of this? No, not in my opinion and not if I can make him a Warden. This however doesn't change the fact that the guy is a bastard.

 

As for the Wardens reputation and "buying into" the mystique and everyone being a cheerleader.
I don't know about the mystique but calling people cheerleaders for liking the gray wardens is ridiculous. People have every reason to like the Wardens. The stop blights, they try to stay out of politics as much as possible and they never harmed anyone (at least intentionally). It was Loghain who stupidly outlawed the Wardens for his own selfish reasons and the entire betrayal story was a blatant lie on his part.
I guess, StreetMagic, what you were referring to is that some characters (and players), most notably Allistair misunderstand the Wardens and see them as something they are not. They are not a group that "always does the right thing" but rather a group that always doe the necessary thing, whether that fits into current moral conventions or not. This misunderstanding however doesn't change the fact that the wardens are indeed a group of ultimately very dedicated and altruistic people who sacrifice their own well being in order to protect others from the darkspawn. For this, they do deserve the respect they get IMO.

[Xetykins]

Anyways, I think I could probably support Loghain even if I didn't like much about him.

I've grown to hate Alistair that much. It's like Morrigan says to Loghain in banter.. "You're an improvement over Alistair. Not that that is saying much." Or something to that effect.

By most accounts, Loghain sucks and probably needs to die. He's just not Alistair.

It's like Alistair doesn't belong in many of my concepts of the game. His mere presence ruins the atmosphere. He gives the whole thing a storybook feel. Like something out of a Disney cartoon. I'm just not in the mood for that.

Kudus to you for being honest. And not hide behind Loghain's non-existent so called prowess.

[Jedimaster88]

Whatever the game nudged people toward regarding loghain shifted dramatically with all the things they came out with regarding loghain AFTER the initial release of the game. Now, he's at least a more complex character and I happen to love that about him and after how many games of listening to Alistair's dialogue, I long for more loghain in my party. Anything to stop hearing about Duncan and the woes of being a bastard prince or life in the chantry or being raised by dogs.... and sometimes saying STFU because I'm tired of having a character that is so damn annoying after 15 games.

 

 

 

Im propably playing with fire now but I feel the same way about Loghain. During my first playthroughs I had no problem listening his talks even though I hated him. Nowadays I have no desire to hear him. Orlais, Orlais and more Orlais, yeah I know that orlesians are scum to many people etc. but that happened about 30 years ago. You are not the only one who fought against them and I dont hear other people cursing them all the time. I wish I could tell HIM to STFU sometimes.

[KaiserShep]

Im propably playing with fire now but I feel the same way about Loghain. During my first playthroughs I had no problem listening his talks even though I hated him. Nowadays I have no desire to hear him. Orlais, Orlais and more Orlais, yeah I know that orlesians are scum to many people etc. but that happened about 30 years ago. You are not the only one who fought against them and I dont hear other people cursing them all the time. I wish I could tell HIM to STFU sometimes.

 

The feastday gifts should have had an Orlesian cheese with a hint of despair that you could give him.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Wait a minute, you have to ask why Loghain gets the short end of the stick? Well let's see, he outlawed and hunted the group the player belongs to, he tried to have the player character killed personally on more than one occasion (Zevran being the most notable). He made a huge tactical mistake and thereby endangered the nation of the player character and he did so most likely with personal power gain as at least partial motivation. He made a deal with tewinter slavers, thereby condoning slavery (of his own people by the way). He instigated a civil war in order to set himself up as a ruler. He oppressed Denerim and Highever through Howe (or at least didn't do anything against it). He used the help of a known blood mage to poison one of the players most important allies. Not to mention he's generally a rather arrogant and unpleasant fellow to be around.

 

(snip)

 

 

People who bring up the slavery argument always forget that Elves are in a crappy place to begin with. The oppression in Denerim isn't directly Howe's OR Loghain's fault, the slavery is. The oppression elves face is due to whoever is in charge of Denerim (I played DA:O a while back, I assume it's Vaughan? Which explains a lot.) If Vaughan can get away with what he did, and it be seen as a regular thing ("Let him do what he wants, don't deny him" all those lead to the Elven women being abused all the time) then it's a systematical abuse from Humans in general. Howe and Loghain enslaved them, Humans of Denerim hurt them, sexually abuse them, put them in these terrible conditions and then deny them any weapons. Denerim will always face oppression but I'm glad I killed all three of the Human men behind the actual disgusting slavery and sexual abuse.

 

And Eamon is the true power hungry idiot, people over-look that. He doesn't want Anora on the throne because she can't produce an heir (I can't even comment on how gross this is, tbh) and because of how spirited she is (you know she won't listen to his bs) and wants Alistair to rule alone ("(...) he knows who to turn to") to control him. Eamon sent Alistair packing because he was an inconvenience and then the moment he can use him he supports him. Meh, I never liked Eamon. 

[sylvanaerie]

First playthrough I actually liked Eamon till I saw how eager he was to jump on the regent wagon.  I made my girl chancellor (she was my Surana) and sent his ass packing back to Redcliffe.  I don't get the "Teagan takes over" slide, but I can live with that.  Now I usually leave Anora on the throne, and I will admit it's in part because of Eamon.

 

He won't even call you out if you have Alistair executed.  (Not something I've done, I've only Utubed it).

I wish there were a dialogue option to tell him Alistair is in all likelihood the last of his line anyway because of the taint, since this is prior to Morrigan's offer.

[Jaison1986]

Wich is an pointless view of Eamon, since he seems so hellbent into disposing of Anora because of her seemly infertility, when in fact the throne will have no heir. The warden and Alistair are also infertile (Morrigan must be the most fertile woman in all of Thedas to be able to have an child with the Warden without the ritual), and thus both the Mac Tier and Theirin line will end in this generation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wich is an pointless view of Eamon, since he seems so hellbent into disposing of Anora because of her seemly infertility, when in fact the throne will have no heir. The warden and Alistair are also infertile (Morrigan must be the most fertile woman in all of Thedas to be able to have an child with the Warden without the ritual), and thus both the Mac Tier and Theirin line will end in this generation.

Well, there's some wiggle room between fertile and sterile. Even with two Wardens, I don't think Alistair says it's impossible for a child to occur. I think he says it's just practically impossible. Which means that there's some chance of those lines continuing even with the Alistair/Warden marriage. (Though for the royal lines to continue would rob the writers of a potential plot for a former PC to have to resolve.)

[Sifr]

Alistair could've been my buddy if they wrote more where he questioned more about our origins.. how we got recruited..what we lost or what we gained. Something that makes it seem like he wants to understand us. Instead he just tows the line and holds up his ideals. It makes him unlikable to me.

 

It speaks of a bigger issue. I'm more attached to the general world and the origins. Not the Wardens. The actual person behind the "Warden" label is important to me. I don't think the writers get the appeal of this. DAO wants you to move on from the origins, and embrace this Warden persona wholeheartedly. With a new brother called "Alistair". And a new duty called "Death". It's really annoying.

 

Part of my fondness for Wynne is that she's the only person who actually takes the time to do this, ask the Warden about their origins and wonder who they are beyond the label of simply "The Warden". While I do like that with the Human Noble, Alistair does catch himself and is horrified when he realises he's forgotten that your entire family was massacred and you are the (supposedly) the last one left, this is the only time that he does so. It's a little grating that you have to hold his hand several times with him dealing with the loss of Duncan, when you're supposed to just suck it up and deal.

 

And this is from someone who likes Alistair and often tends to roll female Wardens who romance him, but the lack of his caring about his fellow Warden and their own tragedies kind of irks me every time.

 

As for Loghain, I'm thinking of doing a playthough where I keep him alive, but I'm trying to figure what Warden would be most inclined to do so?

 

I'm thinking that a Dwarf Noble would be the best fit, given how they grew up as a noble in Orzammar, so it'd be in-character for them to understand the intricate nature of politics, see the larger picture and precisely what Loghain could bring to the table. This is also part of the reason why they'd agree to put Bhelen on the throne, despite despising him, since he's the leader that Orzammar needs (but not the one that it deserves). Plus foisting Alistair off to the sidelines makes sense, since it'd be no use to anyone to make him King, only to have him immediately killed by Darkspawn.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Mike3207]

 

 

As for Loghain, I'm thinking of doing a playthough where I keep him alive, but I'm trying to figure what Warden would be most inclined to do so?

 

I'm thinking that a Dwarf Noble would be the best fit, given how they grew up as a noble in Orzammar, so it'd be in-character for them to understand the intricate nature of politics, see the larger picture and precisely what Loghain could bring to the table. This is also part of the reason why they'd agree to put Bhelen on the throne, despite despising him, since he's the leader that Orzammar needs (but not the one that it deserves). Plus foisting Alistair off to the sidelines makes sense, since it'd be no use to anyone to make him King, only to have him immediately killed by Darkspawn.

 

Thoughts anyone?

Male human noble who married Anora.He wants to get along with his new bride, so he agrees to spare her father.

 

Also-Dwarf Commoner. He/She comes from a criminal background, and he/she might feel differently about Loghain's criminal acts.

 

Mage-a mage could rationalize it that Loghain tried to free the Circle, and that it was Wynne's interference that made things go bad.

[Jaison1986]

Male human noble who married Anora.He wants to get along with his new bride, so he agrees to spare her father.

 

Also-Dwarf Commoner. He/She comes from a criminal background, and he/she might feel differently about Loghain's criminal acts.

 

Mage-a mage could rationalize it that Loghain tried to free the Circle, and that it was Wynne's interference that made things go bad.

 

Pretty much this. What better way to get on the good graces of your future wife? Though Alistair will get the short end of the stick in this one.

[Mike3207]

Pretty much this. What better way to get on the good graces of your future wife? Though Alistair will get the short end of the stick in this one.

In general, Alistair gets the short end of the stick if you spare Loghain. The best option is marrying a hardened Alistair to Anora, and even there your friendship will be over. I'd think the best option might be married to Anora, but let Loghain make the Ultimate Sacrifice. At least that way, the friendship between the Warden and Alistair can recover a bit.

[Sifr]

Pretty much in full agreement.

 

And while I haven't sided with Bhelen as a DN, I am very tempted too. Both you and Bhelen can be reformers and likeminded about the caste system. In the beginning of the game, you can behave that way. I think he needs to die for killing our father though. Not Trian.

 

I always play the DN as a progressive and find it to be a tad ironic that Bhelen is pretty much running things the same way that they would (well, probably not as underhanded), particularly with the giving more freedom to the Casteless and abolishing the Assembly (which is horribly inefficient and judging by how easily Bhelen bribed them to exile you, horribly corrupt).

 

It was never proven however that Bhelen actually did poison Endrin. If you bring this rumour up, doesn't he mention that Endrin supposedly poisoned his own brother to become King, but never admits that he did the same thing? I could see him murdering Trian, but I don't know whether he'd be able to kill his own father.

 

It's possible that Endrin really did die from grief, due to losing Trian and sending the DN to their (supposed) death at the same time. No-one really misses Trian after all, but the DN was supposedly the one most people in Orzammar and Endrin wanted as his heir.

[kalasaurus]

And Eamon is the true power hungry idiot, people over-look that. He doesn't want Anora on the throne because she can't produce an heir (I can't even comment on how gross this is, tbh) and because of how spirited she is (you know she won't listen to his bs) and wants Alistair to rule alone ("(...) he knows who to turn to") to control him. Eamon sent Alistair packing because he was an inconvenience and then the moment he can use him he supports him. Meh, I never liked Eamon. 

 

I'm still ticked at Eamon for not bothering to appear at my Warden's funeral in REDCLIFFE when Anora's the sole ruler.  My Warden saved his village, family, and country, but Eamon can't even make the trip down the hill to pay his respects if he doesn't have Alistair in charge.   Teagan, Isolde and Connor are there.  What a jerk