3206 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeffonl1]

I always took a more simple view... Especially as a HN... My father was murdered, so was Alistair adopted father (Duncan). We had this in common... As I wanted Howe punished so did Alistair want Loghain punished. Howe was killed... Can I deny Alistair the same justice?

[Shadow Fox]

i guess we should kill any family in United States or Brazil(as example) who owned slaves then. And Catholic church.

 

And i guess 'spoils of war' do not ring any bells for you.

And now you're suggesting killing innocent people for what their ancestors did in comparison to us killing one man who committed the crimes he's accused of himself?

 

Anyway. I ask you people to give me at least one strong argument why Loghain must die.

 

No personal feelings. For example "he tried to kill Warden." or "Alistair is cute." or "because i feel like it." (<- last one is a reason enough for me, but this argument is not objective.)

 

Without making him responsible for mistakes/crimes of other people like Howe or Duncan.

 

Mind you - slavery could be evaluated as a crime(and it is i guess, in given setting), but is it worthy of death? Side note from old Legioneer - if city elves allow other to treat them as cattle, they deserve to be treated as cattle (you may not take this point of view as valid argument.)

Trying to poison a nobleman like Eamon would be considered treasonous in pretty much every country in the medieval world and worthy of execution on it's own and that's ignoring the illegal slavery and torture he was parlay to.

 

And no I don't consider blaming the victim to be a valid argument.*in fact I find it morally reprehensible to even suggest it to justify a criminal.*

[Vegeta 77]

Well, this is a new experience for me. I've never seen slavery minimized to such a disturbing degree. I mean we aren't really arguing whether or not this is a major crime, because I'm pretty sure selling people like they are inanimate objects falls into the 'truly horrible' category. Never mind how they were using them.... but the idea that someone would actually debate this point as being less severe is... shocking. Welcome to the dark ages.

 

Thing about this is that even in DAO times it's considered deplorable. Here, back when it was going on, there was a whole mindset around it that certain people were of no value. We won't even get into that, but fact is that it sort of applies to the elves who are treated quite similarly in DAO. And so now it's not just that it's a nasty thing to do but the whole racist horror about it is part of why it was happening to the elves. They were picked specifically because they were deemed to be of less value that humans, which that to me is pretty offensive in and of itself because loghain basically just backed not only slavery but the idea that elves are of less value than humans. I get that this is how it was in the game, but as a general is he not protecting ALL of the people in the land? Or is it just the ones he deems WORTHY of protection and the rest can suck it and pay for the war with their lives in trade as slaves...

To survive you have to do bad things of course he is going to take care of human fereldens his own people and you need money to build a army if not you lost your nation sometimes you do bad things for good reasons

[Pateu]

He is the reason Ferelden is weaker than ever, the reason the Wardens are nearly extinct, the reason the king is dead etc.

 

He's the lowest scum and deserves a painful death. I'm only sorry you can't throw him in a brazen bull.

[Vegeta 77]

So now we're just repeating lines from the game?

Its the truth

[kalasaurus]

Ehh, I'd rather have Loghain arrested; or at least do the same thing Loghain plans for Eamon, Alistair and the Warden if they lose the Landsmeet, and have him go outside to await execution (and not right then and there in front of Anora).  It isn't an option, so I don't let him live most of the time since I'd rather keep Alistair than recruit Loghain into the Wardens.  If I *do* recruit Loghain, it's with a hardened Alistair who's marrying Anora.  It isn't the best situation for Alistair, and he hates the Warden's guts, but it's certainly better than being a wandering exiled drunk or dead.

[Jeffonl1]

It's Loghains justification, yes from the game, but it's up to the PC to accept or reject the rationale. Just how did you play your character? Pragmatic? Ethical? Idealist? Indifferent? A lot of viewpoints are available (a strength of DAO)

[Shadow Fox]

It's Loghains justification, yes from the game, but it's up to the PC to accept or reject the rationale. Just how did you play your character? Pragmatic? Ethical? Idealist? Indifferent? A lot of viewpoints are available (a strength of DAO)

Ethical Idealist for me.*which is funny given my Wardens were a Reaver,Assassin and Blood Mage respectfully* 

[Lucy Glitter]

Unless you have read The Stolen Throne, it's incredibly difficult to see any sort of good side to Loghain, much like Bhelen (unless you are Dwarf Commoner or meta gaming.) It's a tricky thing, especially when he has done so much to your PC personally. My friend informed me that he has a few cut scenes that would have done so much, but alas. I think he initially had the right intentions (he lived through the Orlesian Occuptation and he harbours a deep hatred for them personally, with good intention) but he became a little addled because of it. His paranoia screwed him over.

 

He isn't a mindless villain, hell-bent on destroying everything for his power. He actually has reasons as to why he did what he did (again, thanks to my friend who opened my eyes on this) and they are in his eyes political moves to quell the threat of Orlesians gaining power again. Arl Eamon and his (straying) Orlesian wife, the Couslands openness to Orlesians, King Cailain and his secret letters to the queen of Orlais... whatsherface. He doesn't think Orlais has left Ferelden for good. Well, they haven't, have they? His worries were in the right place and he did what a political power would have done in the same sort of era to ours - eradicating the threats.

 

He truly regrets doing what he has done, but I never forgive him for how he went about everything. It's a real tragedy. Much like Othello, he succumbs to his weakness and takes down everyone around him whilst doing so. Even his own daughter

 

Another Othello connection I have found. The foreshadowing during the Human Noble prologue. Everyone senses their death and subconciously refers to it. There is something in the air... like Desdemona's last scene before she is stabbed with Emilia. Anywhoo.

[Monica21]

What's the point of killing him at the Landsmeet? I mean, really? Is it so Alistair doesn't run off? Because that's a dumb reason. You're told by the most senior Grey Warden you've met, aside from Duncan, that there are very good reasons to make Loghain a Warden. That's a punishment in itself. If you really want him dead, then make him a Warden, don't do the ritual, and make him take the final blow. Or don't make him take the final blow, and let him live out what short time he has left with no authority, no troops to command, and in Orlais, for goodness sake, waiting to die in the Deep Roads at the hands of the darkspawn.

 

Whatever choice you make at the Landsmeet ends in his death, either sooner or later, so "should" is irrelevant.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, Riordan doesn't give you much of a reason other than that there aren't many Wardens left, but until you learn why the Wardens are actually needed beyond sensing nearby darkspawn, that in and of itself isn't very compelling to me.

[Mike3207]

Well, usually I'll spare him. I've got 9 playthroughs though and they all handle things different.

 

Humans-he's a general and Cauthrien asks you to spare him. Live

 

City Elf-Not too hard. he dies.

 

Dalish-He's worked with the Dalish before, and I'm not sure they'd feel bad if anything happened to the city elves. Likely live.

 

Surana-not sure. She was from Denerim, but does she remember anyone from the city alienage. I'll have to think about that one.

 

Dwarf commoner-he's probably upset he didn't think of selling the elves for money. It might be a plus for him that Loghain is viewed as a criminal. Likely live

 

Dwarf Noble-Loghain reminds her of her brother Bhelen. I have to figure out what I do with the Dwarven Succession first though.

[Undead Han]

He is the reason Ferelden is weaker than ever, the reason the Wardens are nearly extinct, the reason the king is dead etc.

 

He's the lowest scum and deserves a painful death. I'm only sorry you can't throw him in a brazen bull.

 

Loghain is like Ferelden's Phillipe Petain.

 

He went from being one of the country's greatest heroes to being its greatest traitor.

[Undead Han]

What's the point of killing him at the Landsmeet? I mean, really? Is it so Alistair doesn't run off? Because that's a dumb reason. You're told by the most senior Grey Warden you've met, aside from Duncan, that there are very good reasons to make Loghain a Warden. That's a punishment in itself. If you really want him dead, then make him a Warden, don't do the ritual, and make him take the final blow. Or don't make him take the final blow, and let him live out what short time he has left with no authority, no troops to command, and in Orlais, for goodness sake, waiting to die in the Deep Roads at the hands of the darkspawn.

 

Whatever choice you make at the Landsmeet ends in his death, either sooner or later, so "should" is irrelevant.

 

Some origins can have a powerful motive for killing Loghain. For the Human Noble it can be out of personal vengeance. Arl Howe couldn't have gotten away with betraying and murdering your family without Loghain's support and protection. Loghain is an accessory to your parents' murder and partly responsible for the loss of your family's hereditary titles and lands. For such a noble, Loghain's death was always the end goal.

 

While it is true that the Joining is a death sentence in one way or the other, it may not satisfy that noble's thirst for vengeance. Sure, it satisfies it if  Loghain dies in horrible agony during his Joining, but what if he survives it? If he goes on to kill the Archdemon he gets to die (potentially) a revered hero. The man might be dead but his honored name lives on. The human noble who is motivated by revenge for his murdered family may also want to see Loghain's reputation destroyed. If he survives the Battle of Denerim he also gets to survive for potentially many years before he has to answer his Calling.

 

The City Elf might be also motivated by personal vengeance, depending on how attached they are to their alienage and depending on how that character views the plight of the Elves. Arl Howe's reign over the Denerim alienage is oppressive and brutal even by the usual standards of that era, and his worst crimes all occur with the tacit (if not outright) approval of Loghain.

[congokong]

ok. i have a question for those who killed Loghain.

 

What were your reasons?

The fact that people really need to give reasons is rather troubling when it's so obvious.

 

Loghain had two inherent flaws; high ego and emotions about Orlais clouding his judgment.

 

He was scarred from his history fighting Orlais which resulted in him no longer being able to make level-headed decisions as a general. He sees Orlais as the enemy when they weren't, refuses their aid, and is more concerned about them than the blight that he denies exists for most of the game.

 

He abandons Cailan partially I think because he sees Cailan as a threat to the realm for wanting peaceful cooperation with Orlais. For Loghain this cannot happen and he wouldn't let it happen. He'd never let Orlais and Ferelden be anything more than unfriendly neighbors. He had seen too much death to overlook Orlais' past.

 

His other flaw is his ego. Loghain had the absurd notion that only he could protect Ferelden, and did whatever it took to reach that end. Slavery, torture of nobles, assassinations, slandering and executing wardens; all of it was justified because only he could protect Ferelden. Therefore no cost was too high to keep him in power. Loghain told Maric he'd let no one divide Ferelden; not even himself. Yet ironically, Loghain divided Ferelden more than anyone by not following his orders at Ostagar, then crowning himself, and all the atrocities committed after in the civil war he started.

 

People will say he's a good general and should be spared to be useful. But if you pay attention to what happens in DAO at all you see he no longer is a good general. A good general doesn't start a war in his own land when he tries to avoid one. He refers to seeing Orlais as the enemy when it isn't as a "tactical error" but it was so much more. Loghain was too biased from the past to be reliable. He became a tyrant; no longer a war hero.

 

People will also argue that he was trying to save Ferelden and had good intentions. Adolf Hitler was trying to save Germany too in his own twisted way. Hitler probably thought everything he did was for the good of Germany.

 

"It's not who you are inside; it's what you do that defines you." Yeah, Batman Begins but it reflects Loghain.

 

He committed monstrous acts because he believed there was no other way. The possibility still exists that he even did it partially as a grab for power. We cannot be sure. It doesn't matter. He was wrong. Loghain committed monstrous acts under a false assumption he made and should answer for it.

 

[Undead Han]

When people refer to Loghain as a 'good genera' what they are really referring to is his tactical ability at the River Dane. They are forgetting however that strategy is also an important part of generalship, and in fact even more important than tactics. 

 

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”

 

---Sun Tzu

 

 

Strategically, Loghain utterly fails in DA:O.

[DarthGizka]

The fact that people really need to give reasons is rather troubling when it's so obvious.

 
If it is so obvious then you should be able to give at least one reason, no?
 
I think everyone agrees that Loghain should "should answer for it" in some form or other. However, that is not sufficient reason for condoning murder.

[congokong]

 
If it is so obvious then you should be able to give at least one reason, no?
 
I think everyone agrees that Loghain should "should answer for it" in some form or other. However, that is not sufficient reason for condoning murder.

Well, I gave a reason.

 

It's still amazing how much debate there can be over killing arguably the main antagonist of DAO. What's next, people arguing over whether the archdemon deserves to die?

 

But I've learned in my few decades alive that people will argue about anything; truly anything. If we put Hitler in Loghain's place there would be people making similar arguments that he deserves to be spared too.

[Jedimaster88]

I always kill him.

 

All this time he has tried kill me and my companions, spread all kinds of nonsense about me and overall made my task as difficult as possible. Then there is the poisoning thing, slavery, tyranny, and all the other things that have been mentioned several times. My warden hates all these things.

 

Even though he is a warden (human noble), he still has a strong desire for justice/revenge however you want to view it. He got satisfaction from killing Howe and views that Loghain made many of Howes actions possible.

Drinking some darkspawn blood didnt change his values and beliefs. He doesnt fully believe in some of the wardens ways of doing things and he never claimed to be a "perfect" warden himself. However he doesnt view being a warden as a punishment or total misery. He actually sees some honor in it and believes it is a chance to do great things, no matter who you are. So by making Loghain a warden, he would feel like he is rewarding him and the last thing he wants to do is reward him.

 

Loghain has tried to kill me all this time. Do I really want someone like that at my side? "We need him as much as we need a knife in our back" as Alistair says. I would propably kill Zevran for the same reason but in his case metagaming comes to picture or whatever you people call it. Loghain has made it painfully obvious that he is cabable of doing totally unexpected things for everyone. What would stop him doing something similar when I let my guard down?

 

Riordan has spent much time in his cell. Maybe too much. He propably has no idea what my warden has been forced to go through both mentally and physically so my warden doesnt listen his every advice. If he says more wardens would be a good thing then he can easily choose other cabable people.

 

My warden also fears that Loghain´s presence could have very poisonous effects to his companions and at worst his party would fall apart. He isnt the only one who wants loghain dead or at least hates him. He values his companions both as allies and as friends and maybe some of them even as loved ones. He will not let anything to ruin it all and he wont take any risks.

 

Before anyone says it, yes I have read the stolen throne and yes I have spared him one time but I didnt finish that playtime. They didnt change my opinion of him much. Sparing him left a bad taste in my mouth and I felt that I was a total ass to Alistair and a traitor. 

In stolen throne I saw in him some of the things I hate in his DAO version like that arrogant thinking that he alone knows what must be done etc. I seriously think he should sometimes just shut up and listen other people´s opinions for once.

 

Other Batman thing that comes to my mind when I think of Loghain is "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself to become the villain".

 

Some of you propably have valid reasons to spare him and thats fine. Perspective and free choice are great things. These are just my opinions.

[DarthGizka]

Well, I gave a reason.

No, you didn't, unless you want to count the nebulous ruminations on scarring, tyrants and monstrous acts.

Loghain exploited the ghettoisation/isolation/'otherness' of the elves by selling them as slaves, thus adding monstrous insult to centuries-old injury. Elves and people close to them would certainly have sufficient reason to draw a line in the sand, even to the point of arranging the duelling variety of "killed resisting arrest" if necessary.

That's an example for a reason. One of many.

[Althix]

 

 

And just who the **** are you?

 

If you're incapable of seeing the value of other people's lives, why do you deserve your own?

Who am I? I am Alpha Legion.

 

And by looking at the stats of my Wardens, in general they killed ~ 1280 living beings. How many of that number are humans... or elves or dwarfs, i have no idea. But i guess a lot. So Warden is not really in a position to talk about how precious live of another person is. But hey Warden is aware that he is a killer, well at least my Wardens are.

 

Besides all that slavery stuff is just a tool to turn Landsmeet against the Loghain, because city elves do not have equal rights with the humans. So you know you can hold for that argument, but from my perspective it's just additional ammunition in a political debate.

As for Eamon, he was a threat, i am not saying that poison is good way to do it, well i believe if Loghain would truly want to kill Eamon he would do that. So he just wanted to remove the threat in the face of Eamon by incapacitating him.

 

Mind you that position of Alistair in that question is rather simple.

[kalasaurus]

Well, I gave a reason.

 

It's still amazing how much debate there can be over killing arguably the main antagonist of DAO. What's next, people arguing over whether the archdemon deserves to die?

 

I think part of it is because in this case the antagonist actually yields to the protagonist and is no longer a threat, so executing him at that moment isn't absolutely necessary.  I do agree that he deserves to be punished, and like I mentioned before would much rather have him arrested.