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Should Loghain Live or Die?

Débuté par ReD BaKen9 , avril 06 2014 03:58

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#1226
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 08:23

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Eamon's treatment of Alistair is complicated. With the sleeping in the kennel or shipped off to the chantry stories I think we are still dealing with shades of grey.

 

Sure on the one hand Alistair was treated like he wasn't part of the family, but on the other Eamon was shielding him from harm. Kings don't often suffer rivals, and it is possible that if discovered his blood could have been a death sentence. That more than anything was probably why Eamon didn't reveal it even to Isolde, even when it came at the cost of his wife suspecting that he had been unfaithful and sired a bastard.

 

Eamon may not have been the ideal father figure but he did keep Alistair safe.

 

For me, the deciding factor with eamon is that he didn't ship him off UNTIL Isolde demanded it. Until then he did okay-ish. Not really good but not truly bad. I lean toward thinking he could have done better but at least he was doing something instead of nothing. I think there is even a line about if it was appropriate for him to raise alistair in the house though I've never asked it in game. Problem is that he didn't stand up to Isolde, which when we meet her we see just how horrid a person she is. She doesn't care about all he town people that are dead because of her. She gets rude and mad when you suggest she knows more (which she does!) and only seems to care about her son. Killing that wench is the highpoint of my game. It's worth the point loss I get from alistair for it if I decided to not use the dialogue bug.


#1227
Xetykins
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:13

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The shipping off to the templars I can live with. Everything else was just bad even if alistair was not even close to being his family. But he must have felt something then otherwise he wont bother visiting alistair nor fixing the amulet. I guess this means Isolde was really the one wearing the trousers and he was just too weak to do anything. Terribly weak for an arl of his standing.

In that case he was not sexist. Just wanted anora off for personal gain. To be honest I dont remember anywhere in the game where he could be considered sexist. Maybe im just addled.

#1228
sylvanaerie
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:20

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I think the whole "blaming Anora for the lack of child" instead of even glancing at the problem being Cailan is the 'sexist' part.  Especially when there was the probability that Cailan was monkeying around without issue himself.  That's almost understandable though considering that's an opinion held by many close minded people in regards to that situation in our own history.  He wouldn't have been the first.  Not excusable, but understandable

 

As for Isolde.  That biatch is a fine piece of work.  Only Howe stirs as much ire in me as she does, so she's second on my list of 'most reviled Origins characters'.  Branka is only behind her because her obsession was caused by an overwhelming desire to help her people.  Vaughan's depradations were limited in scope toward the females in the alienage, so not nearly as devastating as wiping out an entire village (which is what happens if you refuse to help Teagan and the militia).  And as much as I hate Loghain, at least it could be argued he too, is doing all these horrible things for 'a good cause'.  Isolde cares only for her family, and seems oblivious to the pain she's caused by her deception.  I love triggering the dialogue lines where Teagan lays into her for it.  Selfish b*tch caused all that misery on behalf of her own kid but lacks the tiniest empathy for an orphaned child.

 

ugh don't get me started on her...


#1229
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:22

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The shipping off to the templars I can live with. Everything else was just bad even if alistair was not even close to being his family. But he must have felt something then otherwise he wont bother visiting alistair nor fixing the amulet. I guess this means Isolde was really the one wearing the trousers and he was just too weak to do anything. Terribly weak for an arl of his standing.

In that case he was not sexist. Just wanted anora off for personal gain. To be honest I dont remember anywhere in the game where he could be considered sexist. Maybe im just addled.

 

 

I think because there's so much sexist stuff in the game if it even has a whiff of it or that it could be sexist I lean that way. But you are right. It was not about anora being a woman. It was about him wanting the bloodline to continue and to grab for power.

 

I am not certain how much more he could have done for alistair before the chantry only because there is a line where you could ask about the appropriateness of him living there which I have never asked. So this makes me wonder if there would have been some issue of appropriateness, not that this should have stopped eamon from treating him better but if there was some legitimate reason why he did not do more then given all the rules and different lore of the game, then I guess I could see it as him doing what he could. The chantry though gets me because if it weren't for that alistair would not have the taint and I consider that a far worse thing. I go by how alistair sees it and even though we don't think eamon was really good to him by alistair's standards he felt he was better off before going to the chantry or at least until isolde made his life hell (which eamon clearly allowed). And alistair hated the chantry. A LOT. So to me that was probably worse than him living how he was before isolde made his life hell. The chantry is the thing he really hated so for him that was his hell and the worst thing Eamon could have done to him. Perhaps because it mapped out alistair's life for him, took away his choices and represented him being cast off unwanted.


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#1230
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:36

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I think the whole "blaming Anora for the lack of child" instead of even glancing at the problem being Cailan is the 'sexist' part.  Especially when there was the probability that Cailan was monkeying around without issue himself.  That's almost understandable though considering that's an opinion held by many close minded people in regards to that situation in our own history.  He wouldn't have been the first.  Not excusable, but understandable

 

As for Isolde.  That biatch is a fine piece of work.  Only Howe stirs as much ire in me as she does, so she's second on my list of 'most reviled Origins characters'.  Branka is only behind her because her obsession was caused by an overwhelming desire to help her people.  Vaughan's depradations were limited in scope toward the females in the alienage, so not nearly as devastating as wiping out an entire village (which is what happens if you refuse to help Teagan and the militia).  And as much as I hate Loghain, at least it could be argued he too, is doing all these horrible things for 'a good cause'.  Isolde cares only for her family, and seems oblivious to the pain she's caused by her deception.  I love triggering the dialogue lines where Teagan lays into her for it.  Selfish b*tch caused all that misery on behalf of her own kid but lacks the tiniest empathy for an orphaned child.

 

ugh don't get me started on her...

 

Anora talks about how Cailan had his relationship or affairs if you are planning to stay with alistair while marrying him off to anora. She wants you to hide like a dirty little mistress, which while it is understandable to some degree, she is doing this only for political gain on her part, so suck it up lady. It's a political marriage and he will be with his true love whenever he wants. But yeah, Cailan had his affairs.

 

I love getting Teagan to lay into her also. Oh, the fun of it. I wish there was a slap option. I would totally slap her or punch her in the face. Truly.

 

And as you say when you look at each character, there are levels of nasty. At least loghain really believed he was saving ferelden. He really wanted to keep his country safe. I can always get behind that ideal though I do not like how he did it. At least his wasn't a selfish motive. It was about making sure Orlais wasn't going to reoccupy the land and start raping the women and killing the citizens. He didn't even believe there was a blight. Meanwhile, Isolde, the biatch of Orlais lets half of Redcliffe get slaughtered while she protects her demon possessed son in the castle. Then she comes out and grabs sweet teagan to give the demon one more body to kill.... and teagan is the nicest most honorable and selfless, caring noble we have met aside from couslands. Yeah, killing her really is fun. Doing the mind screw on alistiar about it is even better .... 'I think it went well.....' or whatever the line is.

 

I'm no fan of anora. I believe loghain when he basically says she staged all that drama of the rescue. Nobody was going to hurt her. Howe wouldn't because loghain would lop off his head for it. And loghain already knows what she is but still there's no reason that he would harm her. He was in control until the warden comes along. But I will let her be queen to run off with alistair if I am not a noble aiming to be queen or a city elf who believes he can make their lives better (most don't as they think she is too shrewd to allow him to have any power or say over how they are treated). So queen she stays...


#1231
Xetykins
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:40

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I dont really recall eamon saying anything about anora being childless in the game tho. If anything I think he respects her.

#1232
Jaison1986
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:42

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I dont really recall eamon saying anything about anora being childless in the game tho. If anything I think he respects her.

 

In the RTO DLC, letters between Eamon and Cailan show that he was suggesting him to dump her if she can't give him an heir.


#1233
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Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:45

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In the RTO DLC, letters between Eamon and Cailan show that he was suggesting him to dump her if she can't give him an heir.

 

And for the win! Yes, I forgot that Eamon was involved in that. So many details to remember. And of course this has everything to do with keeping the bloodline.


#1234
Xetykins
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:49

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Ok I forgot about the letter. But does that necessarily mean he is sexist or blind loyalist.

#1235
theskymoves
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:50

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Loghain was likely talking about the period of time in which the decision was made to either have Maric raise the boy or give to Eamon to raise. At that time, Rowan should have still been alive-but I'll admit I'm not a expert on the timeline.

 

EDIT-my bad. i guess Loghain does have a faulty memory after all.

 

Rowan died in 9:08. Alistair was born in 9:10. 

 

In my (unpopular) opinon, the dialogue that Alistair and Loghain have referring to protecting Rowan (and Cailan's claim to the throne) read like very sloppy leftovers from the original "Alistair is a 32-year-old former Templar and veteran Grey Warden" plan.


#1236
Han Shot First
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:53

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I dont really recall eamon saying anything about anora being childless in the game tho. If anything I think he respects her.

 

It is possible that Eamon could respect Anora and still favor Cailan finding another queen. In a monarchy where rule is inherited it is vital that the royal family produce heirs and spares. If a monarch dies childless it can spark a civil war where the kingdom tears itself apart, with various warlords vying for the now empty throne. Assuming the lack of children was due to Anora being infertile, the best outcome for the kingdom would be Cailan replacing her. Eamon then is being pragmatic, rather than arguing against Anora out of spite.

 

Of course Eamon was making assumptions in blaming the lack of children on Anora. Its also possible that Cailan was shooting blanks.


#1237
kalasaurus
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 09:55

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Eamon's treatment of Alistair is complicated. With the sleeping in the kennel or shipped off to the chantry stories I think we are still dealing with shades of grey.

 

Sure on the one hand Alistair was treated like he wasn't part of the family, but on the other Eamon was shielding him from harm. Kings don't often suffer rivals, and it is possible that if discovered his blood could have been a death sentence. That more than anything was probably why Eamon didn't reveal it even to Isolde, even when it came at the cost of his wife suspecting that he had been unfaithful and sired a bastard.

 

Eamon may not have been the ideal father figure but he did keep Alistair safe.

 

It's a shame he couldn't trust his own wife to keep that secret.  It was pretty well known within their family, with even a few people outside of it later getting in on it (like Duncan).  I guess I don't see how telling Isolde could have endangered Alistair, unless even Eamon believes that she's a spiteful wench.


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#1238
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:00

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Ok I forgot about the letter. But does that necessarily mean he is sexist or blind loyalist.

 

I think it's less about him being a sexist and more about him wanting that bloodline. I think it even might have to do with who is really running the show. He knows anora is running it now so his influence is minimal. But if Cailan divorced her, who runs it then? Certainly not Cailan, which means he would turn to someone, likely Eamon.


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#1239
Xetykins
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:05

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It is possible that Eamon could respect Anora and still favor Cailan finding another queen. In a monarchy where rule is inherited it is vital that the royal family produce heirs and spares. If a monarch dies childless it can spark a civil war where the kingdom tears itself apart, with various warlords vying for the now empty throne. Assuming the lack of children was due to Anora being infertile, the best outcome for the kingdom would be Cailan replacing her. Eamon then is being pragmatic, rather than arguing against Anora out of spite.
 
Of course Eamon was making assumptions in blaming the lack of children on Anora. Its also possible that Cailan was shooting blanks.


Exactly. He refuses to think it could be his nephew's whale count too. And he loves the theirin blood too much. Still could not call it sexist. Blind opportunistic donkey's behind maybe.

I dont know. Maybe im just not that sensitive about that kind of thing.

#1240
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:05

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It's a shame he couldn't trust his own wife to keep that secret.  It was pretty well known within their family, with even a few people outside of it later getting in on it (like Duncan).  I guess I don't see how telling Isolde could have endangered Alistair, unless even Eamon believes that she's a spiteful wench.

 

Well she was a spiteful wench. However, she was nice to Eamon and this is all that mattered to him apparently because how she treated alistair... no wait, how she still treats him considering her reaction to him in redcliffe when she shows up... she's really nasty to him. What does she say? "Of all the..." For Eamon to not see how she was toward Alistair just probably reinforces how little he cared about him now that I ponder it some more because if you really care about someone and you see them being treated even remotely like we see her reacting to him when you are there with teagan and she comes running out, well Eamon had to have seen that and clearly she was the priority despite what a shrew she was/is.


#1241
Han Shot First
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:05

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It's a shame he couldn't trust his own wife to keep that secret.  It was pretty well known within their family, with even a few people outside of it later getting in on it (like Duncan).  I guess I don't see how telling Isolde could have endangered Alistair, unless even Eamon believes that she's a spiteful wench.

 

I'm sure Eamon must have his reasons for not telling Isolde, though since we don't know enough about her it is hard to speculate what those might be. Maybe she was well-meaning but a bit of a blabbermouth who couldn't be trusted not to spill it to her chamber maids.


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#1242
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:08

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Exactly. He refuses to think it could be his nephew's whale count too. And he loves the theirin blood too much. Still could not call it sexist. Blind opportunistic donkey's behind maybe.

I dont know. Maybe im just not that sensitive about that kind of thing.

 

I think in this time frame it was never considered it was the man's fault. The sex was due to the mother. Not having children was due to the mother. It was always the woman's fault, which given the backwards thinking back then, and the simple fact that women have the womb so it must all be related to them, then I guess there's a wacky logic to it that is less sexist and more having to do with no science to say that men can be the cause and also determine the sex of the baby.


#1243
kalasaurus
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:09

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I'm sure Eamon must have his reasons for not telling Isolde, though since we don't know enough about her it is hard to speculate what those might be. Maybe she was well-meaning but a bit of a blabbermouth who couldn't be trusted not to spill it to her chamber maids.

 

Perhaps, though I still think it could have solved a potentially nasty domestic dispute between them.  Well, solved it in a way that didn't involve shipping Alistair off and burying the problem.  An unhealthy family, that.


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#1244
Han Shot First
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:21

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I think in this time frame it was never considered it was the man's fault. The sex was due to the mother. Not having children was due to the mother. It was always the woman's fault, which given the backwards thinking back then, and the simple fact that women have the womb so it must all be related to them, then I guess there's a wacky logic to it that is less sexist and more having to do with no science to say that men can be the cause and also determine the sex of the baby.

 

It might be sexism, but it is also possible that Eamon was pinning it on Anora because his sister was Cailan's mother. His bias towards his nephew might be based on blood rather than gender. In either case he also needed it to be Anora. If the problem was with Cailan...there was no avoiding a succession crisis. It was probably one part bias and one part wishful thinking.


#1245
Pirate Queen Isabela
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:43

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It definitely is 99% love for power but a small percentage is his sexism, I believe. How he deals with Anora, how he talks with her, also the exchange with Loghain about how Fereldan needs a good King was all just pointed to his biased view that men are superior to women in ruling. Him sending messages to Cailan showed how he could control a King easily, so him controlling Alistair wouldn't be hard. Also his prejudice that you need royal blood is well, you know. 

 

 

One thing though, it's known that Cailan sleeps around with a lot of women and not once did any of them get pregnant. Isn't it hinted that Cailan might be the one not able to conceive a child? I wonder if any of these thoughts ever entered Eamon's head.


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#1246
Han Shot First
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 10:58

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One thing though, it's known that Cailan sleeps around with a lot of women and not once did any of them get pregnant. Isn't it hinted that Cailan might be the one not able to conceive a child? I wonder if any of these thoughts ever entered Eamon's head.

 

Interesting. Is that from one of the books? 

 

That would be good news to anyone who ends DA:O with Anora ruling or alone or wed either to Alistair or a Warden Cousland.


#1247
kalasaurus
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 11:10

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Anora will mention that Cailan had his women on the side if a Warden who's romancing Alistair is trying to arrange a marriage between them (link).  Also, in Return to Ostagar it's implied that Cailan was also having an affair with Empress Celene of Orlais in their letters (which will really set Loghain off if he's present as a companion).


#1248
The Don's Hound
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 11:24

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Let him live, so he can DROWN IN HIS GUILT OF BEING A COMPLETE ****** DICKHEAD BASTARD WHO DESERVES TO BE PUNISHED BY SATAN AND HELD PRISONER WHILE HE IS FED RAZOR BLADES AND FORCED TO WATCH MLP.

 

HAIL LORD CTHULHU .

 

HAIL LORD SATAN.


#1249
kalasaurus
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 11:27

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:huh:


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#1250
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 14 mai 2014 - 11:30

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Anora will mention that Cailan had his women on the side if a Warden who's romancing Alistair is trying to arrange a marriage between them (link).  Also, in Return to Ostagar it's implied that Cailan was also having an affair with Empress Celene of Orlais in their letters (which will really set Loghain off if he's present as a companion).

 

Simon Templeton is amazing in his voice overs. That was awesome. I've seen it before, but it's just such a great scene.


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