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[AlanC9]

It might be sexism, but it is also possible that Eamon was pinning it on Anora because his sister was Cailan's mother. His bias towards his nephew might be based on blood rather than gender. In either case he also needed it to be Anora. If the problem was with Cailan...there was no avoiding a succession crisis. It was probably one part bias and one part wishful thinking.

Agreed. If the problem is Cailan there's nothing to be done..... well, nothing Eamon would be likely to consider, anyway. Might as well assume it's the thing you can do something about rather than the thing you can't do something about. OTOH, he was jumping the gun a bit.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I don't feel that Eamon's dislike of Anora had anything much to do with gender, and everything to do with social class. As far as he was concerned, Anora was a commoner, and thus not fit to be marrying into the revered Theirin lineage and bearing it's heirs. The fact that she was (apparently) barren, only served to reinforce his negative preconceptions about her, and motivated his desire to remove her from a position he felt she should never have been given. At the end of the day, Eamon is a traditionalist who cares more about lineage than ability; or rather, he thinks that ability is conferred by lineage, meaning that only old blood families (like his) should hold political power, and causing him to view Anora as an upstart and a usurper (especially when she wielded so much power in her marriage to Cailan).

[KaiserShep]

Eh, I'm not missing anything. He's the same kind of jerk that Duncan is. A deceptive, nice guy bearded face... but full of conniving b.s. that will undermine you.

 

It's the same reason why Chuck Norris hides a third fist under his beard.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 I had forgotten the commoner non noble issue, which eamon would definitely have. He's all about that noble blood, especially more so when it's who should be king.

Thinking over his dialogue, I don't know if he really had any issue with a commoner queen. His main objection to Anora's marriage to Cailan was that she seemed to be infertile (we've already covered the objection to this idea, so let's not beat that dead horse) and furthermore Eamon actually seemed from the tone of his letter to wish this wasn't the case. "While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be." His objection to Anora during the Landsmeet is that there needs to be a Theirin on the throne, and when you bring up the idea that Alistair and Anora could marry he actually seems to like the idea.

[Sifr]

Having watched a compilation of Loghain's dialogue if you recruit him, I'm a little disturbed to say I actually sort of get where he's coming from in regards to the City Elf situation. It actually makes quite a twisted bit of sense if you look at his logic.

 

The Elves have no weapons, no training with weapons and live in the most ramshackle and indefensible part of the city, so when the Darkspawn attack, the Elves are screwed. Selling them as slaves meanwhile, will gain the money to rebuild the army, improve defenses and help Loghain end the Blight, an outcome where (nearly) everyone wins. Whereas if the Darkspawn aren't stopped at Ferelden, the Blight will spread, eventually reach Tevinter and the Elves will be screwed anyway.

 

It's still wrong, utterly deplorable and even Loghain seems to have trouble justifying it to himself in that conversation, but he rationalises it up as simply making a hard choice to sacrifice the few to save the many. When you look at it that way, it doesn't sound that dissimilar to the methods of a certain Ancient Order of Darkspawn Hunters, does it?

 

Damn... well this makes the Landsmeet trickier?

 

As much as I want justice for the Wardens, Ostagar and those he sold into slavery, I actually think he'd make a good Grey Warden. Well, for a definition of the word "good" that equates to "as morally questionable and desperate to win as Sophia Dryden".

 

And as for Eamon, given that Rowan died two years before Alistair was born, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Eamon told Maric not to raise Alistair. While I agree that he and Maric likely didn't want to diminish Rowan's memory, Loghain is likely right a staunch traditionalist like Eamon wouldn't want someone illegitimate to have any claim to the throne, a claim that would only be reinforced if Maric raised him. Coupled with what we learn in Asunder that a Templar who has taken their vows are usually cut off from any inheritance (although they do have the option to leave the Templars, Evangeline just didn't), it might not have been Isolde who shunted him off into the chantry.

[Jedimaster88]

Fiona was an elf. And the reason maric couldnt raise their son was because shes an elf and a mage. Imagine the landsmeet fiesta on that info alone. The was another reason too but I think I'd get a bollocking soon for the spoilerifics.

 

Not to mention that she was from Orlais. An elf, a mage and from Orlais. I believe this must be the worst combination to have in Ferelden. I can imagine many people, especially Loghain going totally crazy over this. Maric´s first comments about the child were something like "...Loghain is not going to like this..."

 

I wonder if Loghain is able to kill a child like this. He seems pretty obsessed about Maric´s legacy and a child like this could maybe "taint" that legacy in his mind. I know he is capable of doing very horrible things but would this be too much even for him...I dont know. I may be thinking this too much.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Don't forget also (assuming you subscribe to the "Fiona is Alistair's mother" theory), that Fiona did not want Alistair to grow up with the burden of royalty hanging over him. She wanted him to be able to live his own life free of the legacies of either of his parents.

[Corker]

I don't feel that Eamon's dislike of Anora had anything much to do with gender, and everything to do with social class. As far as he was concerned, Anora was a commoner, and thus not fit to be marrying into the revered Theirin lineage and bearing it's heirs.

 

Eamon has a scene (the one where he says Alistair-as-king "will know who to  turn to for aid") where he starts a section of dialogue with  "Anora is... spirited".  It's all in the intonation and delivery, but that's what set the big old sexism bells ringing for me.  Like "uppity" or "feisty," it has the feeling of not being a compliment at all (horses are 'spirited,' for crying out loud), and in fact implying that he finds her to be acting outside of her proper place.  

 

I guess it could be class-based, or it could be both.  But that particular sort of condescensing insult is alive and well IRL, and it's usually either sexist or racist when deployed, so it resonated that way with me.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I love Alistair and Anora ruling together, honestly. Alistair understands military life and the voice of Elves and the other less fortunate people in the city and Anora understands politics and is known and loved by the people. I feel like Alistair and Anora also learn to respect and love one another, and their unity makes it better for everyone, I believe. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

Eamon has a scene (the one where he says Alistair-as-king "will know who to  turn to for aid") where he starts a section of dialogue with  "Anora is... spirited".  It's all in the intonation and delivery, but that's what set the big old sexism bells ringing for me.  Like "uppity" or "feisty," it has the feeling of not being a compliment at all (horses are 'spirited,' for crying out loud), and in fact implying that he finds her to be acting outside of her proper place.  
 
I guess it could be class-based, or it could be both.  But that particular sort of condescensing insult is alive and well IRL, and it's usually either sexist or racist when deployed, so it resonated that way with me.

I'm certainly not denying that there is an element of sexism there, but i think its a little more complex than simply sexism alone. Eamon is a staunch traditionalist, which means he thinks everyone has a place and a role that is determined by their gender and social class. In Anora's case, he thinks the Queen's job is to look pretty and birth royal heirs and not play an active role in ruling the nation (although he might think differently if the queen in question was Rowan; he's nothing if not a hypocrite). I'm sure he would perceive a male elf with a temper and vocal opinions in a similar vein to how he perceives Anora; they are both individuals acting outside their established social roles/status (obedience, submissive to male human authority). Eamon's is very much about maintaining the established social and political hierarchy and he disapproves of anyone who disturbs or flouts the status quo.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Sadly, it's probably a realistic noble pairing. They don't seem to actually fit together as people.. but politically.. maybe so. It's hard to even picture them eating dinner together.

 

I feel like over time they may come to like one another, but tbh that's all headcanon. Politically though, they mesh really, really well for Fereldan!

[theskymoves]

I think it's really creepy to saddle Alistair with a wife he doesn't like, and who makes it clear she doesn't like or respect him. And that's without taking into consideration their age difference of nearly a decade. (But that's probably just my inner concerned Mom talking.) /unpopular opinion

[Jaison1986]

I think it's really creepy to saddle Alistair with a wife he doesn't like, and who makes it clear she doesn't like or respect him. And that's without taking into consideration their age difference of nearly a decade. (But that's probably just my inner concerned Mom talking.) /unpopular opinion

 

I think most people agree that this marriage is mostly political and Anora and Alistair simply do it for the sake of Ferelden.

[Xetykins]

Eamon has a scene (the one where he says Alistair-as-king "will know who to  turn to for aid") where he starts a section of dialogue with  "Anora is... spirited".  It's all in the intonation and delivery, but that's what set the big old sexism bells ringing for me.  Like "uppity" or "feisty," it has the feeling of not being a compliment at all (horses are 'spirited,' for crying out loud), and in fact implying that he finds her to be acting outside of her proper place.  
 
I guess it could be class-based, or it could be both.  But that particular sort of condescensing insult is alive and well IRL, and it's usually either sexist or racist when deployed, so it resonated that way with me.

Where I come from when you call someone spirited it means a fond way of saying that he/she is full of life and has a mind of their own. So maybe thats why I dont see any sexism there. And specially the rest of eamon's conversation about her, I saw a great.deal of respect. It's just that she is too spirited that he cant control her and she has not a drop of theirin blood.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I think it's really creepy to saddle Alistair with a wife he doesn't like, and who makes it clear she doesn't like or respect him. And that's without taking into consideration their age difference of nearly a decade. (But that's probably just my inner concerned Mom talking.) /unpopular opinion

 

That's how politics works. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but the world doesn't cater to Alistair. He should know that caring for the people and not creating a civil war is more important than not wanting to be King.

 

And also, how do we know he doesn't like Anora? He didn't even get to know her. 

[Xetykins]

I think it's really creepy to saddle Alistair with a wife he doesn't like, and who makes it clear she doesn't like or respect him. And that's without taking into consideration their age difference of nearly a decade. (But that's probably just my inner concerned Mom talking.) /unpopular opinion

And this is why I've never been able to marry them. I rather be alistair's chancellor mistress and when the time comes he can find a bride of his own. Someone whom he does not need to recite the chant of light and backwards before bedding her.

[AlanC9]

Eamon has a scene (the one where he says Alistair-as-king "will know who to  turn to for aid") where he starts a section of dialogue with  "Anora is... spirited".  It's all in the intonation and delivery, but that's what set the big old sexism bells ringing for me.  Like "uppity" or "feisty," it has the feeling of not being a compliment at all (horses are 'spirited,' for crying out loud), and in fact implying that he finds her to be acting outside of her proper place.  
 
I guess it could be class-based, or it could be both.  But that particular sort of condescensing insult is alive and well IRL, and it's usually either sexist or racist when deployed, so it resonated that way with me.

Anyone else remember the DAI thread where somebody worried that Vivienne might be too "uppity"?

[Xetykins]

That's how politics works. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but the world doesn't cater to Alistair. He should know that caring for the people and not creating a civil war is more important than not wanting to be King.
 
And also, how do we know he doesn't like Anora? He didn't even get to know her.

I think alistair said something like he sees loghain in anora everytime he looks at her. I dont have access to toolset. Tsm is usually my walking encyclopedia.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I think alistair said something like he sees loghain in anora everytime he looks at her. I dont have access to toolset. Tsm is usually my walking encyclopedia.

 

So, Alistair blames an innocent woman for what her father did? Eh. I love Alistair but I think I love Anora a lot more to condone what he says.

 

But still, maybe when Alistair gets a hold of himself and realizes Anora is her own person, I'll like him better.

[Xetykins]

Maybe the got the same nose? Eyes? Maybe same idea that it does not matter who and how many they drove over as long as the bus theyre driving gets there? I dont know. So bedding her would be like bedding his mortal enemy. Gawd, that reminds me of that pearl mod.

I've no real and strong opinion of anora btw. She was just someone I saved from her own web.

[theskymoves]

I think alistair said something like he sees loghain in anora everytime he looks at her. I dont have access to toolset. Tsm is usually my walking encyclopedia.

 

LOL!

 

Let's see... this, maybe?
 

Alistair: So, I'm guessing someone told Anora I was planning to steal her throne. She has a nasty glare. She wants to be queen. I get it. I don't trust her any more than her father, but I get it.

Warden: What do you think about her?
Alistair: They say that Anora is smart, determined... she's supposedly the one who's really ruled here, not Cailan. She's her father's daughter. Me, I say that's where the problem lies. People like her and her father always think they're the only ones who can fix things. So everyone should just stay out of their way.

 

Or this, if Loghain is made a GW and Alistair is to marry Anora?

 

Alistair (the direction for these lines is "scoffing, sarcastic; angy, shouting"): Loghain let all the Grey Wardens die, let his king die, all because he thought he alone could defend Ferelden against the dreaded Orlesians! No matter what your plans are, he deserved to die. He deserved justice! And you made him ONE OF US! 

Warden: This is his chance to make things right.
Alistair (direction is "bitter, angry; bitter sarcasm"): No matter what your plans are, he deserved to die. He deserved justice! And you made him ONE OF US! But why should I complain, right? I'm the king now, and with a beautiful fiance who is going to remind me of her father every time I look at her.