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Should Loghain Live or Die?

Débuté par ReD BaKen9 , avril 06 2014 03:58

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#1326
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 07:57

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tumblr_moxv4v6K6m1rstyzxo1_500.jpg

 

I just had to.  :whistle:

 

I do not understand what your point is with this picture?


#1327
Pirate Queen Isabela
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 07:59

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I do not understand what your point is with this picture?

 

Alistair's disapproval being very high, basically. 


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#1328
theskymoves
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:00

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*makes popcorn*


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#1329
kalasaurus
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:07

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Alistair's disapproval being very high, basically. 

 

Alistair actually will disapprove of emasculating remarks about him in conversations :P


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#1330
kalasaurus
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:10

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*makes popcorn*

 

I was eating popcorn earlier.  The good type made on the stove.  Om nom nom.


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#1331
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:18

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*makes popcorn*

 

Is this your way of saying you think things are going to get wild now?

 

No worries. I can see I'm being goaded. I've got better things to do than get caught up in that, like going to check on how the remodeling is coming in my beautiful new home. Nothing's going to get to me in this mood. Ahhh... what an amazing day. Sorry to ruin your fun.


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#1332
Pirate Queen Isabela
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:28

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Is this your way of saying you think things are going to get wild now?

 

No worries. I can see I'm being goaded. I've got better things to do than get caught up in that, like going to check on how the remodeling is coming in my beautiful new home. Nothing's going to get to me in this mood. Ahhh... what an amazing day. Sorry to ruin your fun.

 

Didn't mean to start anything, really. It was meant to be funny, period, and not attacking you personally in any way. Hope your day is good, though.  ^_^

 

 

Alistair actually will disapprove of emasculating remarks about him in conversations  :P

 

Yeah, that was the joke.  ;)  Just thought the glitched disapproval was hilarious. 


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#1333
kalasaurus
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:32

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Yeah, that was the joke.  ;)  Just thought the glitched disapproval was hilarious. 

 

Oh, leave it to me to point out the obvious  ^_^


#1334
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:40

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Didn't mean to start anything, really. It was meant to be funny, period, and not attacking you personally in any way. Hope your day is good, though.  ^_^

 

 
 

 

Yeah, that was the joke.  ;)  Just thought the glitched disapproval was hilarious. 

 

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Honestly, I didn't think that was a glitch. I think you can get -99 with him. How sensitive is that? That's why I thought you were trying to make a point or something. My bad for not catching the funny. Must be due to me being distracted.

 

Is that avatar Tali? What's she got on her head?


#1335
Pirate Queen Isabela
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 08:55

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Sorry for my misunderstanding. Honestly, I didn't think that was a glitch. I think you can get -99 with him. How sensitive is that? That's why I thought you were trying to make a point or something. My bad for not catching the funny. Must be due to me being distracted.

 

Is that avatar Tali? What's she got on her head?

 

-99? That's crazy, haha. At most I got 13 for threatening the priest and maybe a -1 or -3 for a few comments. Then again, my warden and Alistair are pretty much on the same moral ground.

 

 

Yeah, it is.  ^_^ It's the flower crown meme on tumblr. I kind of hate how it's resized here so I'm not sure how long I'll keep it. It looks much better larger:

 

tumblr_mq2d8t8kDn1qgs93ao1_500.png


#1336
kalasaurus
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 09:15

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Sorry for my misunderstanding. Honestly, I didn't think that was a glitch. I think you can get -99 with him. How sensitive is that? That's why I thought you were trying to make a point or something. My bad for not catching the funny. Must be due to me being distracted.

 

 

It's true.  It's possible to get -100 disapproval if the Warden turns down Alistair in the wrong way if he's interested in her.  You can also get *massive* disapproval hits (over -50, IIRC) after Redcliffe if you killed Connor or Isolde (depending on what you say).  And he'll disapprove at least -50 for telling him that Duncan got what he deserved.  There are certain triggers for Alistiar, and they're *big*.

 

-99? That's crazy, haha. At most I got 13 for threatening the priest and maybe a -1 or -3 for a few comments. Then again, my warden and Alistair are pretty much on the same moral ground.

 

Same here, except I did do a playthrough to get -100 disapproval from him on purpose.  I thought it was funny that Alistair will disapprove *more* for siding with the merchant outside the Chantry in Lothering than if the Warden murders him.  The approval/disapproval system has some quirks.


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#1337
Pirate Queen Isabela
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 09:21

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It's true.  It's possible to get -100 disapproval if the Warden turns down Alistair in the wrong way if he's interested in her.  You can also get *massive* disapproval hits (over -50, IIRC) after Redcliffe if you killed Connor or Isolde (depending on what you say).  And he'll disapprove at least -50 for telling him that Duncan got what he deserved.  There are certain triggers for Alistiar, and they're *big*.

 

 

Same here, except I did do a playthrough to get -100 disapproval from him on purpose.  I thought it was funny that Alistair will disapprove *more* for siding with the merchant outside the Chantry in Lothering than if the Warden murders him.  The approval/disapproval system has some quirks.

 

That's hilarious, goodness. Alistair has the flair for dramatics, that's for sure.  :lol:

 

I've never done any of those things, I need to start a mean!Warden playthrough.  ^_^


#1338
theskymoves
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 09:34

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Once I ordered romanced/In Love/hardened!Alistair to marry Anora, and this happened:

 

alidisapproves_zps8a89c611.jpg

 

*surrenders Alistair fangirl membership card*


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#1339
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 09:58

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I suspect Anora engineered her own 'capture' by going to Denerim Estate herself and saying something that prompted Howe to (magically) lock her up. She only had to organise this when the Warden shows up in Denerim with Eamon, so it's probable she wasn't in Howe's custody for very long.
 
Was she in any real danger? Don't know. On one hand I believe Anora's too smart to put herself in any position that'd seriously endanger herself so she probably believed she'd be ok. I doubt Howe needed her for leverage...Loghain was agreeing with most/all of his proposals anyway.
 
 
Though she must have said something serious enough to warrant him locking her damn door with magic. :P
 
Edit: If it was Loghain himself who wanted her locked up there's no reason why that couldn't have happened in the palace.

 

 

I think this is going to far, and has a dose of victim-blaming.

 

After all, Howe has never committed crimes against other people without good reason, right? She must have done something to warrant it, right? Just like how the Couslands must have done something to warrant getting slaughtered in their own home. Just like how the alienage must have done something to warrant getting purged for over a year, or sold into slavery. Just like how the Templar hunting Jowan and various nobles must have done something to warrant getting kidnapped, locked in the dungeons, and tortured.

 

I don't doubt that Anora exaggerated how much danger she was in to "move" the Warden into rescuing her, and to enter an alliance, but I think deliberately goading Howe into locking her up in the first place just to play the damsel in distress to get the Warden to rescue her would be frivolous waste of time, even for her. Anora does have a "flare for dramatics," as Loghain puts it, but she's also a shrewd, cunning, logical woman. She doesn't waste time with idle chatter, nor even use her beauty or gender to persuade people even though she could. She does so with her intelligence alone. So, deliberately getting herself locked up doesn't make sense. If she was free to go where she pleased, she could have just approached the Warden with the deal. I don't think she'd waste the Warden's time or her own with a frivolous "rescue" that doesn't accomplish anything in terms of advancing trust, partnership, etc.

 

I think it's far more likely Anora was locked up because she was getting out of Loghain's and Howe's control. We see in previous cutscenes that Anora didn't approve of what her father was doing and was speaking out against him more and more. He was likely having more and more difficulty keeping her qiet, she was likely going to speak out against him at the Landsmeet, so he and Howe more or less put her under house arrest. Remember, Anora is queen while Loghain is her regent. He only has as much power as she publicly allows him. Were she to publicly tell the Landsmeet she renounces him as regent, his pretext of power is blown. 

 

As for why she's locked up with Howe and not Loghain: Remember, she's queen. All of her guards and soldiers might obey Loghain or Howe (when they say "Lock her up," she gets locked up), but she is still queen and the guards still serve in her palace. They might not act against Loghain to help her, but she could probably persuade them to at least not stop her in a real pinch. Or else at least use her knowledge of her castle and servants to her advantage. The narrative says many times that Howe's men are just as ruthless, beyond persuasion, and unafraid to commit dirty deeds as their master. If Loghain and/or Howe wanted to keep a determined queen from speaking out against them, and the cutscenes show Anora was getting more and more out of control, Howe's estate and lackeys are far better prison than her own palace and guards.

 

So, I don't doubt she was locked up. She can't approach the Warden, so she has to have the Warden come to her. Again, with a dramatic "They'll kill me if you don't come!" as opposed to "Hey, I've got a deal. Spring me out of Howe's prison so we can talk." She probably believed (with justification) that the Warden could be suspicious and/or ignore an offer of alliance. The Warden might think it was a trap, might think "I don't need her help, she can sit there and rot," etc. Remember, the Warden is speaking out against her father and Howe, and she is her father's daughter asking the Warden to come to Howe's estate. I think "Let's talk" is less likely to get a response than "They'll kill me! Please hurry!"

 

There, I've said my piece.


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#1340
Corker
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 10:04

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The only person who is a good match for this kind of woman is one who is very happy as the submissive as she is the dominant and therefore never questions or challenges her in any way or one who is on absolute equal footing, a strong sense of self and doesn't let her dominate him or their domain. They might still butt heads, but she will respect him and it can work well. This is why a match with the warden makes sense. But alistair is too much of a good guy/submissive with a feminine energy and sensitive type that her type of dominant personality would run right over him. That never ends well. Usually there is loathing involved. Contempt. It can be quite ugly.


Femininity, sensitivity, compassion and submissiveness are synonyms? O.o

Self-assured, goal-directed women "usually" loathe a spouse who's more laid back?

Shucks, I've been doing it all wrong.
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#1341
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 10:21

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It's true.  It's possible to get -100 disapproval if the Warden turns down Alistair in the wrong way if he's interested in her.  You can also get *massive* disapproval hits (over -50, IIRC) after Redcliffe if you killed Connor or Isolde (depending on what you say).  And he'll disapprove at least -50 for telling him that Duncan got what he deserved.  There are certain triggers for Alistiar, and they're *big*.

 

 

Same here, except I did do a playthrough to get -100 disapproval from him on purpose.  I thought it was funny that Alistair will disapprove *more* for siding with the merchant outside the Chantry in Lothering than if the Warden murders him.  The approval/disapproval system has some quirks.

 

I did bad gifts that got him to -100 and what a mean jerk he is. I gifted him back up because no. Just no. I can not have my sweet alistair/ steve valentine with that agitated voice. I like him all sweety pie where I'm just adoring him or at least thinking he's kind of goofy and a bit whiny and even annoying at times but generally sweet.

 

Heck, just to the the loghain dialogue for the discussion on Anora's rescue I had to turn on alistair and I really felt bad about it. I decided to egg him on to bring out the nasty so it was me being reactionary to his response so I could feel less bad, but oh that was not pretty. As much as I debate about Alistair and his various traits that I see as flaws at times, I still really adore him in general and don't like picking loghain. Yeah, getting that dialogue was so not fun. I'm glad I had a save where I could just jump in right before the landsmeet and get it over very fast.


#1342
Mirdarion
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 10:49

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Actually, IMO this is one of the most impressing things the writers at BioWare have done so far in any of their games. Because technically Loghain did what he thought was best, and not in a cheesy way like TIM did in ME. I could play a hundred times though this game and never ever feel like I finished it, because, you know, in that one last playthrough how would I feel if I had taken this or that choice? 

 

 

P.S.: And now I'm wondering if it will be possible to see Loghain in Inquisition if he lived through Origins...


#1343
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mai 2014 - 10:51

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Femininity, sensitivity, compassion and submissiveness are synonyms? O.o

Self-assured, goal-directed women "usually" loathe a spouse who's more laid back?

Shucks, I've been doing it all wrong.

 

Now that is just you twisting words. Truly. I did not use them as synonyms. I used them as specific INDIVIDUAL and INDEPENDENT traits. That you see them as synonyms says more about you than me.

 

The sentence I wrote was:

 

But alistair is too much of a good guy/submissive with a feminine energy and sensitive type that her type of dominant personality would run right over him.

 

For clarification:

 

He's a good guy/ (meant to use a dash there) submissive with feminine energy and who is also a sensitive. These are all independent traits. They refer to specific characteristics or traits and are not synonyms or you would not need to use them specifically. However, people have been known to clump them together as you have. I used them to describe very specific aspects or traits he has. Again, each are independent. If you see them as synonyms that is how YOU see them but they are not synonyms and were not used as synonyms. That's like saying he is tall, dark and handsome are synonyms. No, they aren't, but they are used together to describe a person to give a fuller picture of him.

 

Perhaps so you can understand it more clearly we'll beak it down.... he is a good guy. He is submissive. He has a feminine energy. He is also a sensitive type.

 

He is submissive because he submits to you and your decisions through the entire game. Nothing about him is dominant until he takes charge more after being hardened.

 

He has a feminine energy. Put a female character in his role and aside from specific references that show he is a male, you would not know it wasn't designed for a female. A female could play that role without a problem. Nobody would know it was originally a male's role as long as you remove the specific references to him being a male or very typical male type behaviors. It would still work easily.

 

He is sensitive. Do not respond to him with concern for his feelings and you will see him get rather upset more often than not. Honest answers don't work with him if they are a topic that he is sensitive about. He's sensitive about a lot of topics.

 

As for the second part of your comment.... I did not describe her as self assured and goal directed. I described her as controlling and dominant and manipulative, which to me she appears to be quite obviously. I also didn't describe him as laid back. Now you're just changing words so you can be snarky.


#1344
gottaloveme
Posté 17 mai 2014 - 03:13

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maybe Anora wants her father out of the way. She is the one to be watching. Are the wardens doing this little task for her? Has she manipulated everyone to this end?

Everyone including Howe?

 

I greatly dislike Anora. I greatly dislike Howe. I dislike but can feel sorry for Loghain (he still has to die). I love my Al. After all ain't all people like that? Strengths, weaknesses etc. Just go with the flow. ;)


#1345
Pirate Queen Isabela
Posté 17 mai 2014 - 03:17

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maybe Anora wants her father out of the way. She is the one to be watching. Are the wardens doing this little task for her? Has she manipulated everyone to this end?

Everyone including Howe?

 

I greatly dislike Anora. I greatly dislike Howe. I dislike but can feel sorry for Loghain (he still has to die). I love my Al. After all ain't all people like that? Strengths, weaknesses etc. Just go with the flow. ;)

 

Maybe Anora was imprisoned and the rest is your headcanon. :rolleyes:

 

Anora's manipulation is more forgivable than Loghain's slavery.


#1346
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Posté 17 mai 2014 - 03:17

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She plays politics. Which is also Loghain's judgement of her. Mere politics. I don't think it's fair to equate her with Howe. He's a sadistic torturer who the whole country is glad to see gone. And even his kids don't really care in the end either.


#1347
Ryzaki
Posté 17 mai 2014 - 04:51

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She plays politics. Which is also Loghain's judgement of her. Mere politics. I don't think it's fair to equate her with Howe. He's a sadistic torturer who the whole country is glad to see gone. And even his kids don't really care in the end either.

 

Yeah I don't like Anora but she's not remotely Howe.

 

Though I wonder if hardened Alistair canonically puts her to death if he's solo king. it's suggested but...


#1348
Tommy6860
Posté 17 mai 2014 - 05:08

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Same here, except I did do a playthrough to get -100 disapproval from him on purpose.  I thought it was funny that Alistair will disapprove *more* for siding with the merchant outside the Chantry in Lothering than if the Warden murders him.  The approval/disapproval system has some quirks.

 

Yes, there are definitely quirks in the approval system in DA:O. In actuality, there's no -100 drop of approval as a standard for most egregious means of pissing off and/or hurting your LI or companion. If Alistair (or Morrigan for that matter) are at 100 approval, they will drop -100 if you really choose  the dialogue options that grates them most. But, at whatever level they are, they only drop to 0 from that level, not -100. The hardest person I found to make have a serious drop is Leliana, which I found to be -30. That's when I side with opportunistic merchant in Lothering, only to then murder knife him. Of course Morrigan's response to that is so apropos for her.


#1349
kalasaurus
Posté 17 mai 2014 - 05:33

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Yes, there are definitely quirks in the approval system in DA:O. In actuality, there's no -100 drop of approval as a standard for most egregious means of pissing off and/or hurting your LI or companion. If Alistair (or Morrigan for that matter) are at 100 approval, they will drop -100 if you really choose  the dialogue options that grates them most. But, at whatever level they are, they only drop to 0 from that level, not -100. The hardest person I found to make have a serious drop is Leliana, which I found to be -30. That's when I side with opportunistic merchant in Lothering, only to then murder knife him. Of course Morrigan's response to that is so apropos for her.

 

Yes, I guess my wording was a bit confusing.  I meant that I purposefully brought Alistair to -100 disapproval over the game by doing/saying things I knew he didn't like so it added up.

 

Edit: Oh, and I definitely agree about Morrigan's response(s) to it (both to siding with him and murdering him).  She has one of my favorite lines that annoys Alistair :P

*Warden runs off the chantry priest*'

Merchant: Thanks for that, here's your 100 silvers.

Warden: Don't worry about it.  I hate the self righteous.

Morrigan: And yet you continue to allow Alistair to travel with us.

Alistair: Hey!


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#1350
Tommy6860
Posté 17 mai 2014 - 05:47

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Yes, I guess my wording was a bit confusing.  I meant that I purposefully brought Alistair to -100 disapproval over the game by doing/saying things I knew he didn't like so it added up.

 

Ahh, OK and no apologies needed :) But agree, it is odd that murdering the merchant warrants less of a negative from Alistair than just siding with him. Anyway, I have to admit, I liked Alistair mad when I talked to him; he seemed like more the warrior that way. I made a vid a while back regarding the interaction (skip to the end for the results). But I absolutely love the interaction between Leli and Mori. Also, Morrigan gives the same approval whether you simply side with the merchant or kill him.


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