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[gottaloveme]

I acquiesce that it is wrong to equate Anora with Howe or even her father, BUT, I can't help but wonder how many fingers she has in how many pies. She is an arch-manipulator playing everyone off against each other

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I think this is going to far, and has a dose of victim-blaming.

Whoa there, Nelly. Victim-blaming? I'm neither blaming Anora, nor calling her a victim. I'm saying she set things up, and her plan worked (even if she doesn't get crowned, she still gets the Warden to ride to her 'rescue'). How does that make her a victim, or warrant blame?

Yes, Howe is a terrible person who does terrible things, even to people who are his supposed allies. Yes, I could be completely wrong and he could have kidnapped Anora because he's a horrible excuse for a human being. I believe Anora manipulated the sitution, whether or not she was as safe as she might have believed. You don't have to! You can believe she was an innocent victim in genuine danger if you like.
 

If she was free to go where she pleased, she could have just approached the Warden with the deal. I don't think she'd waste the Warden's time or her own with a frivolous "rescue" that doesn't accomplish anything in terms of advancing trust, partnership, etc.

Whether or not she orchestrated things, I disagree that her rescue doesn't accomplish anything. First and foremost, it gets Howe killed (this is the guy who proposed killing her to her own father and holds a certain degree of power over him). Second, by playing the victim card she gets to look like she's clearly not in cahoots with her father or why would his ally have her under lock and key? Why hasn't Loghain 'rescued' her? She furthers this guise by claiming her own father might kill her for helping you, something most people would be less likely to believe if she'd just breezed up to you from a cushy palace suite and asked for your backing to crown her Queen of Ferelden -- conveniently after her dad got the king killed.

Finally, by being 'rescued', she puts herself firmly in the custody and protection of Arl Eamon. What's more, with a realistic threat to her person presented, Eamon is obliged to protect her. He can be dubious about her deal, but he can't send her back to the palace. The benefit? Anora gets to observe the Wardens and the Wardens' allies, spy on their plans and make her own.
 
 

I think it's far more likely Anora was locked up because she was getting out of Loghain's and Howe's control. We see in previous cutscenes that Anora didn't approve of what her father was doing and was speaking out against him more and more. He was likely having more and more difficulty keeping her qiet, she was likely going to speak out against him at the Landsmeet, so he and Howe more or less put her under house arrest.

Why not house arrest in the palace? I can't imagine Loghain would have suggested or agreed to Howe proposing that Anora be locked up in Denerim Estate under Howe's own guard after he suggested they kill her! But if Howe locked her up (with ultra magical protection to boot) without Loghain agreeing first, maybe...it's easier to ask forgiveness than ask for approval, as they say.

Remember, Anora is queen while Loghain is her regent. He only has as much power as she publicly allows him. Were she to publicly tell the Landsmeet she renounces him as regent, his pretext of power is blown.

Anora is not the queen. She was the queen while Cailan was alive, but that doesn't mean the kingdom passes to her rule when he dies. That's what the Landsmeet is about, that's why she wants your support: so she can be legally recognised as queen in her own right. I think you're vastly overestimating how much power Anora has, particularly in wartime.
 
 

As for why she's locked up with Howe and not Loghain: Remember, she's queen. All of her guards and soldiers might obey Loghain or Howe (when they say "Lock her up," she gets locked up), but she is still queen and the guards still serve in her palace. They might not act against Loghain to help her, but she could probably persuade them to at least not stop her in a real pinch. Or else at least use her knowledge of her castle and servants to her advantage. The narrative says many times that Howe's men are just as ruthless, beyond persuasion, and unafraid to commit dirty deeds as their master. If Loghain and/or Howe wanted to keep a determined queen from speaking out against them, and the cutscenes show Anora was getting more and more out of control, Howe's estate and lackeys are far better prison than her own palace and guards.

The argument about her having loyal guards in the palace is reasonable, I concur. But Loghain would have to be nuts to agree to putting Anora under house arrest of a man who suggested cutting her throat, especially when he knows exactly what Howe is capable of. He could have locked her up anywhere else, and he has enough warriors loyal to himself I doubt he'd have had trouble finding people for guard duty he could trust.
 
 

So, I don't doubt she was locked up.

That's a bit hard to doubt, isn't it?

 

She can't approach the Warden, so she has to have the Warden come to her. Again, with a dramatic "They'll kill me if you don't come!" as opposed to "Hey, I've got a deal. Spring me out of Howe's prison so we can talk." She probably believed (with justification) that the Warden could be suspicious and/or ignore an offer of alliance. The Warden might think it was a trap, might think "I don't need her help, she can sit there and rot," etc.

Well, you can do that but the plot makes you rescue her anyway.

 

Remember, the Warden is speaking out against her father and Howe, and she is her father's daughter asking the Warden to come to Howe's estate. I think "Let's talk" is less likely to get a response than "They'll kill me! Please hurry!"

I thought you said asking for a rescue had no benefit? Now you're saying you think the drama of the situation gets more of a response? Or is that only true if the rescue isn't set up?

It sounds like you want to believe Anora was geuinely imprisoned against her will, through no manipulation of her own. You want to think she is genuinely in danger and in need of rescue, and she turns the situation to her advantage. That's fine. I reckon she was wasn't entirely the victim she claimed to be, and that's fine too. Neither of us has to get worked up about that.

Edit: Hate this new quote system...

[gottaloveme]

Whichever way she had to jump Anora was hoping to be on the winning side. Except that she ain't always. And what to do with her afterwards hmm? Leave her alive in the tower or dungeon and have disaffected persons use her as a rallying point? Or execute her and have disaffected persons use her as a martyr? Where would you put her? Nothing to do with the storyline but, you know, sometimes the mind goes there.

 

Shadow of Light Dragon I love (love) your signature

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Shadow of Light Dragon I love (love) your signature

Why, thank you. I have it as a bumper sticker on my car too...

I really doubt Howe and Anora were ever going to work together.

I don't think anyone suggested that they were? Howe wanted to kill her, and suggested as much to Loghain.

[gottaloveme]

when does Howe suggest killing Anora to Loghain. Have never come up with that.

[Klidi]

Again, a question that depends on how you play it. I don't always play the game the same way. Most of my Wardens killed him, some let him live.

 

What I'd like is to have a third option - to let him live, but imprison him. Or at least kill him outside the Landsmeet and not in front of Anora. Oh well. I guess that's what fanfiction is for.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm more pointing to the idea that Anora is playing the Warden even here. I think she's a legit victim of Howe. She only improvises to her advantage, if you decide to fight Ser Cauthrian.

By playing the Warden, I think.

 

 

when does Howe suggest killing Anora to Loghain. Have never come up with that. 

 

Loghain admits the idea was raised if you talk to him after the Landsmeet, but asserts that he put his foot down.

[DesstinyMaker]

If Anora speaks against you at the Landsmeet, you can claim that her life was in danger, and she will scoff at you.  That was a REAL AHA! moment for me.

 

Warden: But he tried to kill you! (Which is indeed what she is claiming.)

 

Anora: Did he? Are you certain of that? I know my father.  He would never do less than his utmost for the sake of his country. But I needed to know your mind, Warden. You could have proven yourself an ally of Ferelden. It is unfortunate for all of us that you did not do that.

 

Between that and the dialogue where she admits that she installed herself in Eamon's house so that she could have the Warden's ear, it's pretty clear to me that Anora was not a completely innocent victim in any of this.  Furthermore, she defines loyalty to Ferelden only as loyalty to herself and her own claims for the throne.  She'll sell out her dad to get the throne back, if you don't openly tell her that you plan to execute him. But oh, how her mind changes about The Good of All Ferelden if you don't back HER political schemes!

 

I do think Howe kidnapped her. However, I think Howe had already tried to have her killed and Loghain shot that nonsense down, because he is nothing if not a doting father. Therefore, I agree with those who think the whole "My father will have me killed" thing was nothing more than political manipulation - and in a scenario when the war is being torn apart by both civil war and the darkspawn, Anora does not appear to care about anything whatsoever other than herself.

 

I don't generally let her rule alone. I think Alistair will grow up before Anora will stop being entirely selfish.

 

 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I can't blame her for turning on you at the Cauthrian encounter. You're showing yourself to be bloodthirsty and non-negotiable. Scary for someone like her.

 

Not that you shouldn't do it though. It's a fun fight. I just don't think people should expect a stranger to like it.

Either you're bloodthirsty, or you did the one thing she said could get her killed. But your point stands.

[Xetykins]

C'mon now. You really think that she thinks her own father would kill her. She's all he's got. However much I dont like Loghain, I don't think he's that far down in the gutter to make his own daughter think she is in danger from him.

[DesstinyMaker]

Anora only acts like that at the Landsmeet under specific conditions.

 

She'll also side with against her Father under other conditions.

 

I don't want to sound rude, but try to explore the different ways the game plays out. The ground shifts around you and your choices.

The only thing you have done that is rude here is assume that I've never played the other scenarios.  Believe me, I've played this game more than twenty times, and once I ran six different Wardens at once just to see every possible scenario, side by side.  I said in my earlier post that she will sell Loghain out if you agree to put her on the throne and don't openly demand his execution.  We see different sides of each character depending on our choices, but I don't think Anora's situation in terms of her safety level in Howe's mansion changes because I said I'd put her on the throne.  What I have shown you is that if you choose this particular scenario, Anora reveals how duplicitous she was - and always was.  What she deems necessary to say changes, but who she is as a person and a politician does not.

[Xetykins]

I don't think that. Never said it once. And Loghain himself tells you to dismiss it.
 
I thought we were talking about Howe.

You were quoting someone who said something of what she ahe said in the landsmeet.

[Pateu]

Death to the bastard!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Death to the bastard!

This isn't an Alistair hate thread.

[Han Shot First]

C'mon now. You really think that she thinks her own father would kill her. She's all he's got. However much I dont like Loghain, I don't think he's that far down in the gutter to make his own daughter think she is in danger from him.

 

I agree.

 

I don't think Anora was motivated by fear. I think she was motivated by a desire for power and annoyance at being politically overshadowed by Regent Loghain.

[Mike3207]

There's also the possibility Anora feared her father wanted her locked up, so there wouldn't be any obstacle to him becoming King.After all, if you don't do the sidequests to get your political support up in the Landsmeet, the Warden might have been less of a threat. He says later that he never considered taking Anora off the throne, but that's really after the fact.It's not like he would have said anything different.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I'm more pointing to the idea that Anora is playing the Warden even here. I think she's a legit victim of Howe. She only improvises to her advantage, if you decide to fight Ser Cauthrian.

Of course she's playing the Warden. But what does that have to do with Howe? Or Cauthrien, for that matter?