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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#1401
Xetykins

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Is it self-serving, or is it serving the interests of the Grey Wardens? The Wardens seem to be ruthlessly pragmatic, so anything that advances their mission is justified. I don't think their actions are motivated by personal selfishness, just a relentless focus on the objectives of the order.


I think this is specially true wih the older wardens who are higher in position. I think 15+ years of crippling nightmares and dealing with those nightmares when theyre awake is enough to make any warden ruthlessly pragmatic.
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#1402
DesstinyMaker

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Pretty much. "The End justifies the means" and all that jazz as long as the job gets done.

I'd be more impressed with that philosophy if the Wardens actually did everything they needed to do in order to be sure the job gets done - such as to tell The Warden and Alistair what actually needed to happen for the job to be done. Riordan failed on that so spectacularly I have a hard  time just kowtowing when he tells me to turn my back on a trusted friend who is already a Warden in order to recruit a bitter enemy whom, at the time of the request, I am not sure will either cooperate with me or even survive the Joining.



#1403
AlanC9

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I'd be more impressed with that philosophy if the Wardens actually did everything they needed to do in order to be sure the job gets done - such as to tell The Warden and Alistair what actually needed to happen for the job to be done. Riordan failed on that so spectacularly I have a hard time just kowtowing when he tells me to turn my back on a trusted friend who is already a Warden in order to recruit a bitter enemy whom, at the time of the request, I am not sure will either cooperate with me or even survive the Joining.


Shouldn't you be blaming Duncan for that rather than Riordan? Riordan thinks you already know the deal.
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#1404
AventuroLegendary

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I like how he simply brushed off slavery, torture and, oh yeah, treason against the king and some of the nobles simply bought it. And he didn't sound too convincing either. I thought he was just being a massive ham.



#1405
DesstinyMaker

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Shouldn't you be blaming Duncan for that rather than Riordan? Riordan thinks you already know the deal.

 

No, Riordan ASSUMES that you already know the deal. Even if you explicitly asking him for basic information about the Grey Warden organization, he does not tell you why a Warden must kill the Archdemon.  He hangs out at the Eamon estate all week and it never crosses his mind to mention it.  He'll tell you that they've got a warehouse of stuff, and what you need for the Joining ritual, but it never occurs to him to make sure you know this, even though there are only three of you. Inexcusable.

 

Or really bad writing.


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#1406
Darkly Tranquil

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I think this is specially true wih the older wardens who are higher in position. I think 15+ years of crippling nightmares and dealing with those nightmares when theyre awake is enough to make any warden ruthlessly pragmatic.

 

Perhaps because they know just how much has and is being sacrificed, both personally and collectively, they want to make sure that those sacrifices are not made in vain. Hence, their willingness to do the things they do.



#1407
AlanC9

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No, Riordan ASSUMES that you already know the deal. Even if you explicitly asking him for basic information about the Grey Warden organization, he does not tell you why a Warden must kill the Archdemon.  He hangs out at the Eamon estate all week and it never crosses his mind to mention it.  He'll tell you that they've got a warehouse of stuff, and what you need for the Joining ritual, but it never occurs to him to make sure you know this, even though there are only three of you. Inexcusable.
 
Or really bad writing.


Heh. Yeah, Bio always goes for drama over sense.

My big problem with the scene is that it treats Loghain as the only available Warden candidate, for no reason.
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#1408
Han Shot First

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My big problem with the scene is that it treats Loghain as the only available Warden candidate, for no reason.

 

Sten and Oghren would be two obvious choices. Both are fearsome warriors who likely wouldn't balk at chugging down an archdemon blood smoothie. If Ser Cauthrien lived she'd also be another good candidate.

 

On a side note, Oghren's Joining in Awakening was hilarious.



#1409
KaiserShep

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And the bugger drank the whole thing. Maker help us.
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#1410
AlanC9

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I figure Wynne would give it a shot if asked. Though I don't know what her chances of survival would be.

#1411
Han Shot First

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I figure Wynne would give it a shot if asked. Though I don't know what her chances of survival would be.

 

Of the DA:O companions I think Wynne and Sten would agree to the Joining.  Oghren as well of course.

 

Zevran and Morrigan I think would both refuse, and short of being conscripted wouldn't take part. Morrigan has her own agenda, and both on some level are too selfish to volunteer for a life ruled by duty and self-sacrifice.

 

Leliana I'm not sure about it. 



#1412
TEWR

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Leliana probably would. Her views on the Maker and Chantry dogma are already pretty close to heretical by their standards. She might initially question the idea of the Joining and say it's blood magic (rightfully so) but I think she'd probably go for it anyway.

 

Wynne, however, I can NOT see as going for it. She'd call it blood magic and refuse point blank.



#1413
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Zevran straight out refuses if you ask him in the epilogue if he's thinking of joining.
Wynne knows she's living on borrowed time; I doubt she'd join when she could be spending it productively. Besides, the Joining might harm her spirit.
Leliana, I assume, is working is working for higher powers (yep, even during Origins). So, no.
Sten has other goals.
Morrigan has other goals.
Shale can't, while she's a golem.
The catalyst for Oghren joining is terror of being a bad father.

In any case, potential Wardens isn't limited to the DA:O companions.

#1414
erilben

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If you could put companions through the Joining, it would work how Bioware had originally planned it. Companions would become tainted from fighting the darkspawn, and so they could go through the Joining after the Landsmeet.  I don't think any would refuse because its either the Joining or dying for sure.



#1415
KaiserShep

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It would suck to have all of these poor suckers get blight sickness, forcing them to either go through the Joining or die. Like, great, welcome to Club Warden, where you get to live fighting darkspawn, and die in a hole in the ground before you turn into a ghoul. At least we all get to share the same nightmare. I can see Wynne accepting this, since she's dead serious (heh) on this whole duty thing. Zevran would probably wish he died instead.



#1416
DesstinyMaker

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Would the companions become Wardens?

 

Actually, given how much time they spend fighting darkspawn, I don't know how they managed to avoid Blight sickness at all.  Consider this; every time a non-Warden character gets injured by a darkspawn, that person SHOULD contract the sickness instantly like Wesley did in DA2.  So, especially for the melee fighters - Sten, Oghren, and Zevran, I'm looking at YOU - it should seem almost inevitable. 

 

But, since it's somehow not, here's who I think would agree to join.

 

Morrigan - absolutely not.  Not under any circumstances whatsoever. She'd die first.

 

Wynne - It would be madness to try it, even though she might be willing. Wynne is too old and she's not hardy enough to do this.

 

Shale - it wouldn't work. She doesn't really have blood to taint anymore.

 

Dog's a dog. However, this might be interesting, if it worked....

 

Leliana and Sten would have to be tricked into it. They've both got other things they'd rather dedicate their lives to rather than darkspawn fighting. These are two who might drink from the cup in order to be better fighters, and then just lose it when they find out that they are destined to become ghouls. I wouldn't want to be in the same room with the Sten when he experiences the nightmares and learns how short his life is going to be. That would not be pretty.

 

Zevran's already figured out that this is not for him.

 

Oghren, of course, was not only willing, but a nearly perfect choice.

 

But then we consider the question that raised this debate: why were they unwilling to recruit anybody else? How many soldiers and guardsman were in that room for the brawl that could happen if the Warden didn't win the initial argument?  What members of Ferelden nobility might be willing to join the Wardens in order to save their terribly threatened home?  What about Bann Wulff, who has lost his entire territory to the darkspawn? What about Teagen, who watched Redcliffe being decimated by a horror nearly as bad? And yes, what indeed about Cauthrien, who might well offer herself up in place of Loghain if it meant that he might be incarcerated rather than executed?

 

I think one of the reasons why the Landsmeet does not really work for me as an exercise in moral choices is that the most sensible possible choices were never even considered. The choice we were given was that EITHER Loghain must be executed on the spot, and Alistair must then become King, OR Alistair must be thrown in the garbage can.  It's quite obvious to me that Loghain should have been sent to prison while Riordan allowed the Warden to offer the chalice to somebody else who didn't have quite such a history of brutal hostility toward the order, and the question of who should reign should have been a separate issue altogether. 

 

I will say, quite honestly, that I think executing or exiling Alistair would be not only stunningly unjust for what is really little more than a single angry verbal outburst, but, excruciatingly stupid. When you have only three Grey Wardens in Ferelden you don't let one walk out the door and you don't let Anora chop his head off so that her political power will be more stable. You don't allow a preventable loss, period, because at that moment, killing that damned dragon is much more important than anything - ANYTHING - else going on. It's much, much worse than what happens if Bhelen takes the throne, because Harrowmont doesn't have a particular, very rare medical condition that is absolutely vital to the survival of the entire kingdom. I have heard people argue that Anora is right to execute Alistair because rebellions can be raised in his name, but it just doesn't wash at all when he's one of only three people in the entire country who can perform the only possible task that can keep Ferelden from being as ruined as the Anderfels.

 

The only excuse I can give for Anora even suggesting the execution is that she does not know that the man who kills the Archdemon dies. (Heck, if she knew, she might be very helpful about pushing Alistair right into the glory seat! He's a hero, she's the queen, Ferelden is saved, everybody wins!)  If there were any chance at all that she knew the Warden who killed the archdemon would die, (because after all, she knew that the Joining could be fatal, and that was supposed to be a secret, too) then the very fact that she wanted to execute somebody who could save the nation would, by itself, render her completely unfit for the crown as far as I am concerned. Nobody should ever put their own political power ahead of ending the Blight.

 

Of course, nobody should stomp off in a huff because his worst enemy didn't get splattered across the floor, either, but we know for sure that Alistair didn't know the numbers game. I will assume that Anora did not, either.



#1417
KaiserShep

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It seems random people only seem to know about the Joining when the moment calls for it. In Awakening, Oghren gladly insists on being made a Warden, and even says to bring him the big cup. So, he apparently is aware of the fact that there's a chalice filled with something for him to drink. Did some Warden there tell him about it before The Withered attacked Vigil's Keep? If so, why wasn't he made a Warden then? I dunno. It's a good thing Thedas doesn't have social networks. The details of the Joining would be a secret for about an hour.



#1418
Shadow of Light Dragon

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The chalice was present in the RtO DLC, so that's as good a reason as any to know a cup's involved.

As for Anora knowing about the Joining, I figure that if we assume it's not a writing blunder then Loghain could have told her, or even Maric or Cailan. Someone had to know about the darkspawn blood ritual, or it wouldn't have been stolen from the Denerim castle vault.

#1419
Guest_Faerunner_*

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The chalice was present in the RtO DLC, so that's as good a reason as any to know a cup's involved.

As for Anora knowing about the Joining, I figure that if we assume it's not a writing blunder then Loghain could have told her, or even Maric or Cailan. Someone had to know about the darkspawn blood ritual, or it wouldn't have been stolen from the Denerim castle vault.

 

Didn't Anora only say "the Joining is often lethal, so you can use that instead of a death sentence," or words to that effect, and nothing else? The Wardens bring in a lot of recruits, but only some of them become actual Wardens. Since the people around the Wardens never see some of the recruits again after they were supposed to be initiated (and/or have to discard the bodies), and the families and friends back home likely know So-and-so went to Join the Wardens and was never seen or heard from again, it's likely some non-Wardens know the Joining process is sometimes lethal, even if they don't know how or why.



#1420
Han Shot First

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It is possible that Loghain or Howe might have discovered what went on in the Joining and Anora could have learned of it through them. Howe had some encoded Warden documents in his possession, but were they all he came across? Maybe something he could read was found in that Denerim armory.

 

Or maybe some other Warden also fell into captivity like Riordan, but unlike Riordan, he cracked under torture. Were the Ferelden Wardens able to get their full strength gathered at Ostagar? In a setting where there are no cell phones or email, its possible that some Wardens might have been away from their headquarters and on other assignments, like for example in the Deep Roads, at the time the unit marched for Ostagar. What if one of these Wardens returned home or set out for Ostagar with no knowledge of Loghain's betrayal?



#1421
Sir Pounce-a-lot

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Under ordinary circumstances, he should certainly be executed for his horrendous crimes.  Ironically, I had him executed in every single playthrough except the one for my "canon" Warden.  Why?  It was a tactical decision, considering the threat that the blight posed to the world.  Alistair was becoming King, so another Warden of similar skills would need to replace him.  Loghain will answer for his evil deeds someday, and he's already a middle aged man so it might not be more than a few years away.  For now, his skills can serve the Wardens.



#1422
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Didn't Anora only say "the Joining is often lethal, so you can use that instead of a death sentence," or words to that effect, and nothing else?


That's true. We honestly don't know how much she really knows, but the fatality issue was one of the close-kept secrets of the Wardens. Duncan even kills Ser Jory for wanting to back out once he sees it happen, so that Jory won't be able to spread that information about. Now everyone in Denerim knows! :D

#1423
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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That's true. We honestly don't know how much she really knows, but the fatality issue was one of the close-kept secrets of the Wardens. Duncan even kills Ser Jory for wanting to back out once he sees it happen, so that Jory won't be able to spread that information about. Now everyone in Denerim knows! :D

If Anora's voice carried to the assembled nobles, then everyone in Denerim knows. There's no way they'd all keep that secret. But everyone right next to Anora when she said it already knew. (Even if Anora herself maybe wasn't supposed to.) If she was speaking quietly enough that nobody on the balconies heard, the secret might have still been safe. And she wasn't speaking in the raised, clear voice that all the other noble and the cleric seemed to be using to make themselves heard to the entire room.



#1424
gottaloveme

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If you need to make more wardens and you need archdemon blood to do the joining - then who stole it (Howe? Loghain?) and what did they do with it? Did Riordan find it? Did Anora have it tucked down her cleavage? Where was it?



#1425
Mike3207

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I think Howe sent the supply to Amaranthine.There's more than enough archdemon blood there for them to do all the Joinings for them and their friends.