3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Xetykins]

Warden or no warden or even no teagan, civil war will happen because of many things. One of them was what happened in highever and how suddenly loghain's top man aquired those titles without being formally granted by the crown. Right of succession and all that crap. And how loghain went about trying to fund his own private war. For example stealing lands from the banns, which again he has no right to.

The nobles arent sheep he could easily herd. Well he could, but not the way he went on about it.

[theskymoves]

That brings up a question-does the Civil War even get started if the Warden isn't in the picture?Cauthrien definitely implies that the Warden is responsible for the Civil War, even to the extent it was necessary to sell the elves to have enough money to continue fighting it.I think that's a bit much, but I also think the war would have been settled long ago if the Warden wasn't putting together the armies.

 

Yep,if the Warden hadn't put together the armies, the darkspawn would have settled the civil war. Pesky Wardens! /snark

[Xetykins]

Yep,if the Warden hadn't put together the armies, the darkspawn would have settled the civil war. Pesky Wardens! /snark

Lol!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That brings up a question-does the Civil War even get started if the Warden isn't in the picture?Cauthrien definitely implies that the Warden is responsible for the Civil War, even to the extent it was necessary to sell the elves to have enough money to continue fighting it.I think that's a bit much, but I also think the war would have been settled long ago if the Warden wasn't putting together the armies.

Judging from some of the ambient dialogue, Loghain has pretty much already won the Civil War by the time the Warden takes a leading role in the resistance. So I think it's safe to say that it would have started with or without the PC being in the picture. I'm also not under the impression that the Warden uses the armies against Loghain. Eamon advises against open confrontation, since he doesn't want to waste lives battling over the throne. That's why Eamon calls the Landsmeet: he wants to defeat Loghain without destroying Loghain's very-much-useful army.

[TEWR]

Duncan would do anything to stop the blight. Come landsmeet, Loghain is pretty much a big wall between him and his duty. And pretty much made his duty almost impossible. I think he would do his best to beat Alistair on the race to cut his head :-) The situation is just too dire for hopeful indulgence. The joining is not a guaranteed magical concoction to cure stupidity and extreme paranonia after all.

 

Had Duncan not abandoned Ferelden, he would've probably attempted to reason with Loghain after Ostagar by heading to Denerim and tell him of why the Wardens were necessary (or so I'd like to think). And even if he had gone to the Landsmeet the way we had and dueled Loghain, he would've been quick to accept Loghain's surrender and make him a Warden because let's face it... Duncan is noted by everyone that he will do whatever it takes to stop the Blight. And when Loghain surrenders, he's no longer preventing Duncan from fighting the Blight. Why waste a perfectly good candidate, when Duncan's recruited in the past a potential person who killed his/her own brother in the name of politics (I still hate how you're railroaded into being Bhelen's stooge without the ability to really call him out on how obvious he is), a career criminal who can murder someone in public, a mage that possibly aided a blood mage's escape and stood by it, a Dalish Elf that murdered three innocent (though douchey in the end) humans, and so on.

 

Acting like the Warden is some paragon of morality when, even beyond the origin stories, what they do is not exactly something clearly good is disingenuous. And it's why I'm contemptuous of DAO. It offers the player too much of a power fantasy. Power fantasy is not a bad thing in and of itself, but years spent on the forums have shown me that people are quick to ignore their own characters' shady stories and act like they're these flawless saints of perfection.

 

Dangerous mindset to be getting into.

 

What you're also forgetting is that Loghain's distrust of the Wardens was fueled not only by their history of serving Orlesian interests but also how Loghain knew absolutely nothing about their Order other then that they fight Darkspawn and are "impressive" (his words on their prowess). For all he knew they were just regular soldiers who spent their life fighting only one type of foe.

 

Y'know, like the Night's Watch. Who don't really have anything magical about their being (other then their weaponry) but are still badass warriors in their own right.

 

I'll address other peoples' posts later.

[Deathsaurer]

As someone who just recently completed DAO for the first time I have to say the Landsmeet managed to end up my second least favorite part of the story, right behind the wonderful Fade adventures... It went from one of the most gratifying moments calling Loghain out on all his crap to probably the biggest let down being railroaded into 2 options I didn't want. I certainly wasn't going to trust him with all his underhanded assassination attempts on people he saw as threats but I didn't want to behead someone that was once called a hero. I wanted to throw him in jail and make him watch me stop the Blight despite everything he tried to do to stop me. I wanted him to see becoming the monster he became was a waste. That if he had worked with us the Blight would have been over already. I wanted him to be that guy everyone pointed at as a reminder of just how quickly heroes can fall if they're not careful.

 

But nope, you either have to ally with the guy that caused so much suffering it's sickening or behead him and cover his daughter in his blood. By the time it was over all I could think was THANK GOD, I'm just going to pretend none of this happened.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, I think throwing him in prison would've been a pretty reasonable option. Stupid Riordan had to come in and ruin everything.

[ShadowLordXII]

Had Duncan not abandoned Ferelden, he would've probably attempted to reason with Loghain after Ostagar by heading to Denerim and tell him of why the Wardens were necessary (or so I'd like to think). And even if he had gone to the Landsmeet the way we had and dueled Loghain, he would've been quick to accept Loghain's surrender and make him a Warden because let's face it... Duncan is noted by everyone that he will do whatever it takes to stop the Blight. And when Loghain surrenders, he's no longer preventing Duncan from fighting the Blight. Why waste a perfectly good candidate, when Duncan's recruited in the past a potential person who killed his/her own brother in the name of politics (I still hate how you're railroaded into being Bhelen's stooge without the ability to really call him out on how obvious he is), a career criminal who can murder someone in public, a mage that possibly aided a blood mage's escape and stood by it, a Dalish Elf that murdered three innocent (though douchey in the end) humans, and so on.

 

Acting like the Warden is some paragon of morality when, even beyond the origin stories, what they do is not exactly something clearly good is disingenuous. And it's why I'm contemptuous of DAO. It offers the player too much of a power fantasy. Power fantasy is not a bad thing in and of itself, but years spent on the forums have shown me that people are quick to ignore their own characters' shady stories and act like they're these flawless saints of perfection.

 

Dangerous mindset to be getting into.

 

What you're also forgetting is that Loghain's distrust of the Wardens was fueled not only by their history of serving Orlesian interests but also how Loghain knew absolutely nothing about their Order other then that they fight Darkspawn and are "impressive" (his words on their prowess). For all he knew they were just regular soldiers who spent their life fighting only one type of foe.

 

Y'know, like the Night's Watch. Who don't really have anything magical about their being (other then their weaponry) but are still badass warriors in their own right.

 

I'll address other peoples' posts later.

 

Fair enough point. There is a logical argument to be made for recruiting Loghain and I can see Duncan setting things aside to do so.

 

But apart from the flaws of the situation's construction (which I brought up earlier), my largest objection comes from an objective view of Loghain's idiocy. For a man whose supposed to be a brilliant strategist and hero of his country, he's actually done almost as much to destroy Ferelden as the Blight has. And you want this fool in your organization? How do I know that he wouldn't pull a Dryden against Orlais and get the order kicked out? How do I know that he won't get us all killed during the Blight? How do I know that he won't try to stab me in the back?

 

The risks of recruiting Loghain outweigh the benefits. Not only is he an idiot and an untrustworthy one, but nothing in the game suggests that he'd even be a good Grey Warden. From a Teleological and Deontological perspective, recruiting Loghain is simply not worth it. If I need another Grey Warden to increase our numbers, then I'd be better off picking from one of the hundreds of knights in the Landsmeet or even someone else like Gorim or Jowan.

[Deathsaurer]

You shouldn't have to but the Warden decided that was the perfect time to pick up the idiot ball for a few minutes.

[FiveThreeTen]

No matter how I plan to play I'm always a bit undecided on his fate even after so many playthroughs.

 

So it depends on my Wardens and my mood but usually:

 

Mage: Spare him just because I like his cameo in Awakening and I roleplay my mage more detached from Ferelden politics and whose personal motto is basically: WHY NOT? (Blood magic? WHY NOT? Dark ritual? WHY NOT?)

 

Human noble:  Depends. While Loghain isn't directly involved in the Cousland massacre he was definitely working with Howe. But if I happen to spare him it's because my Cousland suddenly feels that somehow it would be smarter to keep him alive or because she doesn't want to gut someone she views as a heroic symbol for Ferelden on the carpet of the Landsmeet.
But if I'm playing a Cousland whose primary drive is revenge and is asking for BLOOD yes off with his head!
And you can also totally rationalize killing him since from every Warden perspective he is presented has your main antagonist (with the Blight) throughout the game.

 

City Elf: Kill him just because she has (obviously) strong feelings about slavery (and generally people messing with her home/family).

 

But I never let Alistair have his "revenge" because I always marry him off to Anora, that's the only thing that never changes

[gottaloveme]

Can anyone let me know when Duncan abandoned Ferelden? I thought he simply died due to Loghain's retreat.

 

I also agree with hardened Alistair - in that there are some people who think they are the only ones who can fix something and usually bugger it up. Loghain is backed into a corner, is desparate to save both Ferelden and Anora and doesn't know which way to turn first. He has lost his logic/common sense marbles and is guilty. Whichever way you look at it Loghain has betrayed everything he believed in and needs more than just the naughty corner.

 

Anora on the throne - never!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Can anyone let me know when Duncan abandoned Ferelden? I thought he simply died due to Loghain's retreat.

 

{snip}

 

Anora on the throne - never!

We apparently have Word Of Gaider that he was probably going to had he not died. (I'm also going to point out that, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this forum and the last, it's not entirely clear that Loghain's retreat had anything to do with Duncan dying. For that to be true would require Duncan's life to be salvageable.)

 

I actually don't mind Anora on the throne. Especially not with a hardened Alistair or a Cousland PC to act as her pelvis-mounted conscience.

[Ryzaki]

I've settled on suicide. My Warden has no further story. Died young and became forgotten. Loghain and Alistair get to live out their pathetic, idiotic lives.

 

A sad, hopeless tale. lol

 

That's depressing XD

 

Though I did have my male HN do the US cause he wanted to die. He also knocked Morrigan up so LOL that'll be a funny import.

[yk1468]

I spared him, but I made sure to make alistair the king. My reasoning for doing this is because I felt my character should show him that he is not like loghain. And to prove to everyone that anyone can change for example: Zevran, Sten, Alistair, Leliana, Oghren, Morrigan, Wynne, Shale and even my character. Thats why I felt that I shouldn't kill Loghain cause all of these characters changed no one was perfect its not black and white. Even Loghain tells you "Please, I've done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right." That pretty much proves what I'm saying.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I spared Loghain and it's a fitting golden ending.

 

My whole issue is how recruit him in the first place is incredibly contrived and ridiculous and none of my characters would actually pick it if I was going IC. As it is I'll just go OOC since the landsmeet is one giant cluster of stupidity anyway.

[TEWR]

Fair enough point. There is a logical argument to be made for recruiting Loghain and I can see Duncan setting things aside to do so.

 

But apart from the flaws of the situation's construction (which I brought up earlier), my largest objection comes from an objective view of Loghain's idiocy. For a man whose supposed to be a brilliant strategist and hero of his country, he's actually done almost as much to destroy Ferelden as the Blight has. And you want this fool in your organization? How do I know that he wouldn't pull a Dryden against Orlais and get the order kicked out? How do I know that he won't get us all killed during the Blight? How do I know that he won't try to stab me in the back?

 

The risks of recruiting Loghain outweigh the benefits. Not only is he an idiot and an untrustworthy one, but nothing in the game suggests that he'd even be a good Grey Warden. From a Teleological and Deontological perspective, recruiting Loghain is simply not worth it. If I need another Grey Warden to increase our numbers, then I'd be better off picking from one of the hundreds of knights in the Landsmeet or even someone else like Gorim or Jowan.

 

Loghain is, first and foremost, a military man. His retreat from Ostagar was sound. The battle plan laid out, based on what information they did have, was sound enough though Cailan cocked it up thoroughly by wasting the archers and Mabari and charging out into the open and exposing his flanks -- which can lead to a double envelopment -- when Loghain simply told him to lure the Darkspawn to him. And the Darkspawn were charging at them just fine so there wasn't a need to meet them head on in the open field.

 

Also Bioware seems to not understand that a fortress is meant more for keeping your forces inside. Or how they royally cocked up Loghain's characterization at Ostagar.

 

Loghain also wanted the Circle to align with him so that he could use the Mages' power against the Darkspawn and, as would come with the Circle, the Lucrosians/Formari as a means to keep the war chest afloat.

 

He also wanted to enlist the aid of the Dwarven people who have the most experience fighting Darkspawn.

 

That is, in and of itself, the mark of a smart military man. He was not opposed to outside aid, as you find out the Free Marches sent some soldiers (though most nobility were jerks). He was simply opposed to Orlesian aid. And you can't blame him when the history of the Wardens is one of furthering Orlesian interests and Orlais has used the Blights as a smokescreen to "save" weakened nations and never leave until they're booted out.

 

He also keeps Howe on his side, despite his detest of the man, because Howe controls the greater part of the Coastlands. With this comes a great deal of military power that if antagonized could open up a third front but also allows him to transport needed supplies to his men.

 

We hear of how he easily crushes the Bannorn. We see him tell the Bannorn that they should unite under him immediately and replace the army lost at Ostagar so that they appear strong even though their king perished in battle without a named heir, as other people (namely Orlais) would take advantage of a nation that fell to petty internal politics. Unfortunately, it's his relentless drive to prevent this coupled with Teagan's altruistic but short-sighted comments that inflame the Bannorn and leads to the banns starting the civil war. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all that.

 

Where Loghain fails is that he's horrendous at politics. He's blunt and direct and a commoner to the core (noble in name, common in political mentality). He doesn't understand, or perhaps he doesn't want to understand, the intricacies of politics and so he tends to favor direct people. As a result this backfires, but that doesn't make him a poor military man. Only a poor politician.

 

Even so, the Circle not allying with him is also on Wynne's shoulders, as she couldn't even think of having the Circle align with the man who advocated that the nation fight against the darkspawn immediately. She, and indeed many people, would rather not see that Loghain is the far better option. When faced with an invasion, one must be unified to deal with it.

 

And yet many people, in-game and out, wish to claim the moral high ground. They can't. They're nowhere near it. Not even my beloved canon Warden Xanthos Aeducan, who led Wardens from every origin story against the Blight, feels he can claim it.

 

But he does use it to his advantage to advance his own interests.

 

EDIT: Beyond that, Loghain carries with him the morale bonus. Being the Hero of River Dane and being given another chance gives the army a needed boost in morale. Think about it, the general that crushed the Bannorn and Orlais with ease fighting on their side and helping the Grey Wardens? It's like it allows them to feel like there's a glimmer of hope, because he's a renowned tactician.

 

That DAO goes into Zerg Rush mode for the army is rather sad and I actually wish we could retake some ground from the Darkspawn in some major battles before going into the final battle, but whatever.

 

Loghain brings with him a morale bonus, something no knight can really give you. There's hope with the GW leading the front, but Loghain adds to it.

 

It's also clear from Loghain's character that he doesn't want power and he doesn't like it either. It's taxing and there's no chance of him going Dryden on Orlais. Plus, he wouldn't be able to do that anyway. He doesn't have the things that Sophia had in terms of political mentality.

 

He surrenders. Why would he betray you if he surrenders? He's already lost and there's nothing he can gain. He even says to Wynne as much.

 

And when he surrenders, he places himself under your command. The fight against him was for who would lead the armies assembled. You are the leader, he the subordinate. He knows of the chain of command. Why would he break it now when it doesn't serve any purpose?

[Xetykins]

:-o

[dragonflight288]

Until recently, I always killed Loghain, but recently I did a playthrough where I decided to spare him, do the Dark Ritual, not because he may appear in Inquisition, but because I thought it would be a greater punishment for him to end up serving the Grey Wardens in Orlais (as is revealed in Awakening when he visits) than death. 

 

However, as I got to speaking with him, and when I took him and Wynne back to Ostagar, took the time to move around Denerim with him and every single party member and listen to his dialogue, I realized something. He never once, ever, removes himself from responsibility for what he's done. He simply, and wrongly, placed a higher priority on one threat, that of Orlesian incursion, than that of the darkspawn. I also found, hidden in the game itself, that Orlais was sending far more troops than Loghain and Cailan had been told. At the Landsmeet, Loghain says that Orlesian Wardens were bringing four legions of chevalier's. But Riordan says he came with 200 Wardens and four divisions of cavalry. Going by Roman Legion numbers, they were told they would be getting 12,000 soldiers to help them (One Legion is 3,000) but were actually sending closer to 20,000 to 30,000. 

 

Based on the Third Blight, where Orlais went into Nevarra under the flag of friendship and aiding them against the blight, and once the blight was ended, they never left and occupied Nevarra, it becomes very suspicious that Loghain and Riordan give completely different numbers. It's subtle, but matched with Orlais's history and suddenly you have a real concern for the future of Ferelden. 

 

Also, in the novel The Calling, Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor, the Warden Commander who brought the Wardens back to Ferelden, (from Orlais as well) make a deal with the darkspawn that would've doomed all the surface races to becoming corrupted and turned into ghouls. The Warden Commander before Duncan was actively working with the Architect on a plan that would've destroyed all life all in the name of ending the blights forever, and Loghain arrived to save Maric's butt and saw it happen. 

 

Loghain knows from experience that even Grey Wardens are not above working with the Darkspawn, and even our Warden may not be if they trust the Architect and let him live in Awakening either. 

 

Taking all this into account, I actually now find killing him to be a greater mercy than making him a Grey Warden, where he ends up serving in Orlais later should he survive the Blight. 

[TEWR]

Ah yes, dragonflight mentions a few things I've mentioned in the past in the plethora of other Loghain threads that have popped up.

 

Riordan does give off a different number of Orlesian troops on the way. Loghain, as was pointed out, was told four legions of chevaliers were coming. Riordan tells us that two dozen divisions (not four dragonflight =P) of cavalry were en route. A division is a relatively recent military term and the exact number given is suspect for a military force for Orlais to have as it comes well over 100,000 soldiers (where are the pages? Where will the supplies come from?), but we must work with what we're given which is that Loghain was lied to.

 

Beyond Nevarra, the Orlesians also did the same thing with Kirkwall during the Qunari crisis. They swooped in and liberated the city-state from the Qunari, only to remain there and keep it for themselves until Kirkwall pushed them out and elected their very own Viscount.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 (not four dragonflight =P)

 

 My bad. I'm tired. I've had two fourteen hour workdays in a row and today I worked sixteen hours.

[TEWR]

**** that's rough! I dunno if I could last that long.

[dragonflight288]

**** that's rough! I dunno if I could last that long.

 

I've got to. The area I live in is being hammered by flash floods, massive lightening storms, and we've had three tornadoes in the past two days pummeling the towns in the area I live. It was a headline on Fox for a town called Pilger Nebraska last Monday where two tornadoes hit it, met up and became one larger cyclone, traveling northeast and pummeled another town. 

 

The two towns it hit are less than thirty miles from where I live. And since I'm certified in water mitigation and structural restoration, it's emergency services pretty much around the clock. 

 

Now, that was off topic so if anyone wants to comment on that, please do so through a PM. 

 

Back on topic....

 

I have come to like and respect Loghain since my last playthrough where I let him live. 

[Ryzaki]

The numbers note is very interesting. Shame you can't bring it up to Loghain.

[Jedimaster88]

To the people who keep mentioning the numbers thing: Are you absolutely sure the different troop numbers mentioned by Loghain and Riordan are not simply some error from Bioware? This game is known to have errors with timelines and other things so what´s one more eh?