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[ShadowLordXII]

Loghain is, first and foremost, a military man. His retreat from Ostagar was sound. The battle plan laid out, based on what information they did have, was sound enough though Cailan cocked it up thoroughly by wasting the archers and Mabari and charging out into the open and exposing his flanks -- which can lead to a double envelopment -- when Loghain simply told him to lure the Darkspawn to him. And the Darkspawn were charging at them just fine so there wasn't a need to meet them head on in the open field.

 

Also Bioware seems to not understand that a fortress is meant more for keeping your forces inside. Or how they royally cocked up Loghain's characterization at Ostagar.

 

Loghain also wanted the Circle to align with him so that he could use the Mages' power against the Darkspawn and, as would come with the Circle, the Lucrosians/Formari as a means to keep the war chest afloat.

 

He also wanted to enlist the aid of the Dwarven people who have the most experience fighting Darkspawn.

 

That is, in and of itself, the mark of a smart military man. He was not opposed to outside aid, as you find out the Free Marches sent some soldiers (though most nobility were jerks). He was simply opposed to Orlesian aid. And you can't blame him when the history of the Wardens is one of furthering Orlesian interests and Orlais has used the Blights as a smokescreen to "save" weakened nations and never leave until they're booted out.

 

He also keeps Howe on his side, despite his detest of the man, because Howe controls the greater part of the Coastlands. With this comes a great deal of military power that if antagonized could open up a third front but also allows him to transport needed supplies to his men.

 

We hear of how he easily crushes the Bannorn. We see him tell the Bannorn that they should unite under him immediately and replace the army lost at Ostagar so that they appear strong even though their king perished in battle without a named heir, as other people (namely Orlais) would take advantage of a nation that fell to petty internal politics. Unfortunately, it's his relentless drive to prevent this coupled with Teagan's altruistic but short-sighted comments that inflame the Bannorn and leads to the banns starting the civil war. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all that.

 

Where Loghain fails is that he's horrendous at politics. He's blunt and direct and a commoner to the core (noble in name, common in political mentality). He doesn't understand, or perhaps he doesn't want to understand, the intricacies of politics and so he tends to favor direct people. As a result this backfires, but that doesn't make him a poor military man. Only a poor politician.

 

Even so, the Circle not allying with him is also on Wynne's shoulders, as she couldn't even think of having the Circle align with the man who advocated that the nation fight against the darkspawn immediately. She, and indeed many people, would rather not see that Loghain is the far better option. When faced with an invasion, one must be unified to deal with it.

 

And yet many people, in-game and out, wish to claim the moral high ground. They can't. They're nowhere near it. Not even my beloved canon Warden Xanthos Aeducan, who led Wardens from every origin story against the Blight, feels he can claim it.

 

But he does use it to his advantage to advance his own interests.

 

EDIT: Beyond that, Loghain carries with him the morale bonus. Being the Hero of River Dane and being given another chance gives the army a needed boost in morale. Think about it, the general that crushed the Bannorn and Orlais with ease fighting on their side and helping the Grey Wardens? It's like it allows them to feel like there's a glimmer of hope, because he's a renowned tactician.

 

That DAO goes into Zerg Rush mode for the army is rather sad and I actually wish we could retake some ground from the Darkspawn in some major battles before going into the final battle, but whatever.

 

Loghain brings with him a morale bonus, something no knight can really give you. There's hope with the GW leading the front, but Loghain adds to it.

 

It's also clear from Loghain's character that he doesn't want power and he doesn't like it either. It's taxing and there's no chance of him going Dryden on Orlais. Plus, he wouldn't be able to do that anyway. He doesn't have the things that Sophia had in terms of political mentality.

 

He surrenders. Why would he betray you if he surrenders? He's already lost and there's nothing he can gain. He even says to Wynne as much.

 

And when he surrenders, he places himself under your command. The fight against him was for who would lead the armies assembled. You are the leader, he the subordinate. He knows of the chain of command. Why would he break it now when it doesn't serve any purpose?

 

The moral high-ground is one thing and that honestly varies from warden to warden. Arthunas Amell sure as hell couldn't claim that high ground, but Revan Cousland could. That aside, Loghain had his chance and blew it badly on a logical sense.

 

I won't fault him for Ostagar, that was a lost cause. He shares some of the blame for what happened, but not all of it. Retreating was the best thing that he could've done to save what was left of the army. It's what he does after Ostagar that messes everything up.

 

Instead of declaring himself regent and demanding the bannorn to join him, he should have called a Landsmeet and had this done the Ferelden way. Then he could persuade a majority to approve of him being regent of a lawfully elected Queen Anora. He should have known that this was the best way to do things, instead he tried to rush his own people and they reacted in a way that shouldn't have surprised Loghain.

 

If he'd handled the landsmeet better then his envoy would've had proper and less unclear clearance to enter Orzammar to enlist the aid of the dwarves. But considering what was happening at the time, anything that Loghain could've done would've been too little and too late for Ferelden. So attempting to negotiate with the dwarves is something of a moot point.

 

Like the Warden does, attempting to recruit the mages is a good call. Just not in the underhanded way that Loghain went about it. This was pretty much asking for dissent to occur in the Mage Tower and Loghain's chosen agent happened to be the ringleader of a secret blood mage party. In short, if Uldred's group had managed to kill the stationed templars (which they were well on their way to doing) and escape the tower, Loghain would also be partially responsible for a mass outbreak of abominations, blood mages and demons.

 

Not only is Howe guilty of high treason for murdering the Couslands, he is continually guilty of unlawful abduction, torture, murder, extortion and embezzling Ferelden's already strained finances. Loghain's very cooperation with this man and seeming condoning of his actions through promotions and collaboration are stains in themselves. If Howe's actions were brought to light, Howe would've likely eventually turned against Loghain in his mad ambition for power. The smart thing for Loghain to do would be to arrest Howe and have him executed when his usefulness was at an end. Instead, he know has a poisonous friend that's poisoning the very country that he's trying to save.

 

Lastly, what morale bonus could possibly be provided by a fallen hero? He poisoned Arl Eamon, sold Ferelden civilians into slavery to Tevinter, interfered with Chantry business and turned a devout templar over to the butcher of Denerem (Howe), and then there's his collaboration with said treasonous butcher. If I were a soldier told that I'm fighting under this guy's command or have to trust him to have my back in battle, I'd probably be discouraged rather than encouraged.

 

Perhaps Loghain would have enough honor not to backstab you and the game proves this. But we the player can't know this without meta-knowledge (essentially cheating) and we have no way of knowing if he's capable or trustworthy. At least to where he would be such a vital boon to the Grey Wardens that we throw Alistair to the wolves.

[Han Shot First]

I believe Loghain's attempt at garnering universal support for his regency backfired when the Warden managed to get the signal fire lit at Ostagar. Loghain's plan was that the fire would never be lit, so that his retreat from Ostagar wouldn't seem like a betrayal. He could claim that Cailan's plan had failed and he did the best he could to salvage the army in the wake of Cailan's failure. He'd come away from the defeat at Ostagar once again looking like the hero. When the Warden and Alistair got that fire lit however, much of the retreating army saw it. Some of these knights and soldiers and minor lords no doubt reported on it when they returned to Denerim or their home fiefs. Those stories gave some of the banns, like Teagan, a reason to accuse Loghain of regicide. 

 

I don't think there was anything Loghain could do to avoid a civil war once that signal fire was lit at Ostagar. It exposed him to accusations of treason.

[Deathsaurer]

Loghain's real problem is he couldn't see the real enemy for what it was. No matter how bad the Orlesians were they were nowhere near as bad as the Darkspawn. They don't eat people, they don't turn women into Brood Mothers. They've been driven out before and they can be again if need be. His hatred blinded him to the real enemy right in front of him and in the end lead him to do things that ultimately made him no better than the people he despised so much.

[TEWR]

The moral high-ground is one thing and that honestly varies from warden to warden. Arthunas Amell sure as hell couldn't claim that high ground, but Revan Cousland could. That aside, Loghain had his chance and blew it badly on a logical sense.

 

I disagree. No Warden can claim the moral high ground IMO. Some may start off closer to it, but I don't think they can ever claim it.

 

But that's a discussion for another day.

 

Instead of declaring himself regent and demanding the bannorn to join him, he should have called a Landsmeet and had this done the Ferelden way. Then he could persuade a majority to approve of him being regent of a lawfully elected Queen Anora. He should have known that this was the best way to do things, instead he tried to rush his own people and they reacted in a way that shouldn't have surprised Loghain.

 

Again, this marks him as a ******-poor politician which is not a reflection on his worth as a military asset. While politics and military maneuvering go hand in hand often, they do not automatically make one a poor asset if they are lacking in one area.

 

You also have to understand that while Ferelden knows Anora has been the brains behind the throne for the last five years, much of the nation is still traditionalist in mindset and wouldn't dare see a non-Theirin ruling alone. Anora is queen at this point (no one seems to dispute that, given the talk of the banns in the GNT and Teagan's comments) and indeed by her approval of her father's declaration of regency she is endorsing it. Given how there's an invasion on their doorstep, can Loghain really be faulted for wanting an immediate army to deal with such a threat?

 

I'll not deny his approach leaves much to be desired, but can he be faulted for wanting to forgo the political courting that could've taken far too long just to give them the approval of the banns and then get to work on amassing an army?

 

I don't think so. The short-sighted banns who decided it was a good idea to fight against Loghain, believing the Darkspawn weren't even a threat, bear the most blame. For all of Loghain's denial of the Blight's veracity, he never acted as if it wasn't the immediate priority except when the Civil War came into play, thus forcing a needed focus on a united front. Given how the Bannorn are blocking the way south and there'd be no means for Loghain to move his forces to deal with the Darkspawn unscathed, he had to focus on fighting the Banns.

 

I'll not deny that Loghain's demands of accepting him as their Regent during the crisis reminded many of the same demands the Orlesian nobility made of the Fereldan people, but they're also different in reasoning. The Orlesians wanted acceptance for no other reason then to lord over the people. Loghain wanted acceptance so he could make it a point to deal with an imminent crisis.

 

The amount of time it'd take to court the nobility to even accept Loghain as their leader during the invasion would probably not work out, mainly for the fact that you'd also have to bypass the traditionalist hurdles as well. Throw in Eamon coming into the picture with Alistair and it undermines all the work because the traditionalists would probably go "Theirin! OMG WE NEEDZ HIM!!!!"

 

If he'd handled the landsmeet better then his envoy would've had proper and less unclear clearance to enter Orzammar to enlist the aid of the dwarves. But considering what was happening at the time, anything that Loghain could've done would've been too little and too late for Ferelden. So attempting to negotiate with the dwarves is something of a moot point.

 

It's the effort that's important. Imrek was a fool and should never have been appointed as an ambassador for Ferelden, but the effort Loghain was making is what matters. But yes, as Orzammar was facing their own political upheaval, nothing would've really happened as it's clear that the treaty is what gained access.

 

Perhaps a better emissary could've arrived and convinced the outer guards to let him/her talk with the Assembly and thus gained access, but beyond that nothing would've happened.

 

Just not in the underhanded way that Loghain went about it. This was pretty much asking for dissent to occur in the Mage Tower and Loghain's chosen agent happened to be the ringleader of a secret blood mage party.

 

Except Loghain knew nothing really about Uldred other then that he was a vocal Libertarian. As Wynne was an Aequitarian and the other Mages were no-names with unknown affiliations, Uldred was probably the best candidate at Ostagar to go to for an alliance with the mages. Loghain promised Uldred his support in granting the Circle more autonomy (if not total autonomy) from the Chantry.

 

Uldred had very nearly convinced the Circle to join with Loghain until Wynne decided to say something (something she regrets doing). As such, Uldred decided to enact a bloody coup d'etat, which let's face it was stupid. But let me repeat that first part.

 

Uldred decided to enact a bloody coup d'etat.

 

The blame for Uldred's actions lies on Uldred himself. He was a grown ass man and he elected that if the Circle wouldn't ally with Loghain he'd fight everyone. Why he thought that was a good idea I dunno, given that he'd end up destroying some of the nation's greatest assets in the process.

 

Loghain's very cooperation with this man and seeming condoning of his actions through promotions and collaboration are stains in themselves.

 

Actually, if you look over the details in-game, you find that Howe named himself Arl of Denerim. But...

 

The smart thing for Loghain to do would be to arrest Howe and have him executed when his usefulness was at an end. Instead, he know has a poisonous friend that's poisoning the very country that he's trying to save.

 

And you think Howe didn't have allies? The thing about his takeover of Denerim and Highever is that he would've instilled people loyal to him in positions of power to maintain his hold over the area. We clearly see how even after Howe's death there's still a sizable portion of nobility who were loyal to him and would fight for him still.

 

If Howe was arrested these people would've launched a third front against Loghain. The thing is, you can't just cut off the snake's head in politics. It's not enough. You have to make sure they're fundamentally destroyed, burned to ashes. Leave no trace of the viper alive.

 

Otherwise you're not facing a snake, you're facing a Hydra.

 

In this instance, his tacit allowing Howe to keep his power is giving him the manpower, the supply routes, the supplies, and a slew of other things. It's a bit of a give-and-take though, because Howe was embezzling from the war chest as you said along with committing a lot of other things.

 

It'd be different if Bryce was alive still. The Couslands are known as ardent royalists, so I think Bryce would've gone in support of Anora and Loghain after Ostagar. Even if he knew about Alistair, he wouldn't have necessarily known Alistair was at Ostagar much less alive after. And Bryce isn't a fool.

 

Lastly, what morale bonus could possibly be provided by a fallen hero?

 

You hear in-game how many people are glad he's still alive.

 

hat we throw Alistair to the wolves

 

We are not doing anything to Alistair. Alistair is making the choice to leave the Wardens himself and it's entirely possible that throughout the game you have said nothing of the sort to say "Loghain will pay", much less what type of "payment" you mean by that.

[dragonflight288]

I believe Loghain's attempt at garnering universal support for his regency backfired when the Warden managed to get the signal fire lit at Ostagar. Loghain's plan was that the fire would never be lit, so that his retreat from Ostagar wouldn't seem like a betrayal. He could claim that Cailan's plan had failed and he did the best he could to salvage the army in the wake of Cailan's failure. He'd come away from the defeat at Ostagar once again looking like the hero. When the Warden and Alistair got that fire lit however, much of the retreating army saw it. Some of these knights and soldiers and minor lords no doubt reported on it when they returned to Denerim or their home fiefs. Those stories gave some of the banns, like Teagan, a reason to accuse Loghain of regicide. 

 

I don't think there was anything Loghain could do to avoid a civil war once that signal fire was lit at Ostagar. It exposed him to accusations of treason.

 

Interesting thought, but Gaider himself said that Loghain didn't think about betraying Cailan until the beacon had been lit, and at that moment, a split-second decision, figured that the battle couldn't be won since Cailan had charged into the field and got himself surrounded on all sides, the beacon was lit late, and the darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds. 

 

The hammer and anvil tactic Loghain devised simply wouldn't have worked because Cailan wasn't holding the line he was supposed to, and the darkspawn weren't fully committed and thus vulnerable to a flanking maneuver. 

 

After Loghain retreats, we get a brief overhead view of the battle and the darkspawn are still pouring out of the wilds. The odds of Loghain getting Cailan and Duncan out of that field alive were already slim, and if he succeeded he would've lost nearly all the army to save on or two men. 

 

Loghain didn't plan on betrayin Cailan until that split second, as per the word of Gaider. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain didn't plan on betrayin Cailan until that split second, as per the word of Gaider. 

Except that Gaider also said that Loghain did have a plan to retreat if he had to, since he realized that he might indeed have to. To this end, he wanted some way to scuttle the beacon should it become necessary to retreat, for exactly the reasons Han describes. (I don't think Gaider needed to say that this plan is part of why he asked Cailan not to fight on the front lines, which judging by Cailan's tone Loghain had been being fairly annoying about offscreen.)

[TEWR]

To the people who keep mentioning the numbers thing: Are you absolutely sure the different troop numbers mentioned by Loghain and Riordan are not simply some error from Bioware? This game is known to have errors with timelines and other things so what´s one more eh?

 

Well, I said in the past that it was most likely an error from Bioware, but the fact remains that it's still a part of the lore given that they're not going to just come out and say it was a ****-up now. So we have to take it for what it is currently -- a difference of numbers given.

[TEWR]

The thing to note is that Loghain did have a plan of retreat in mind, something every general needs to know. And to that end he did want the Mages and his men in control of the tower because he could know that they would know when the time to light the signal was and if the signal should be lit at all. But he also wanted Cailan off of the front lines, which tells us that what he was trying to accomplish is a simple strategy that can work out if things go right and if not he can pull out without losing the king and the majority of the army.

 

When Cailan forces the issue and decides to fight on the front lines, coupled with all of the things that go wrong in the battle (the takeover of the tower, Cailan's charge, Cailan's waste of resources, Cailan being surrounded, the signal being lit at the wrong time, the Wardens being idiots, etc.) Loghain makes a split-second decision as the signal shoots up and he sees everything that's going on from his vantage point to leave the field as he had originally planned... but with the added casualty of Cailan.

 

Something he did not want to happen and could he have prevented it he would have.

 

Cailan's death was much his own doing... but that doesn't mean Loghain enjoyed it.

 

None of this constitutes a betrayal, however.

[Deathsaurer]

Interesting thought, but Gaider himself said that Loghain didn't think about betraying Cailan until the beacon had been lit, and at that moment, a split-second decision, figured that the battle couldn't be won since Cailan had charged into the field and got himself surrounded on all sides, the beacon was lit late, and the darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds. 

 

The hammer and anvil tactic Loghain devised simply wouldn't have worked because Cailan wasn't holding the line he was supposed to, and the darkspawn weren't fully committed and thus vulnerable to a flanking maneuver. 

 

After Loghain retreats, we get a brief overhead view of the battle and the darkspawn are still pouring out of the wilds. The odds of Loghain getting Cailan and Duncan out of that field alive were already slim, and if he succeeded he would've lost nearly all the army to save on or two men. 

 

Loghain didn't plan on betrayin Cailan until that split second, as per the word of Gaider. 

A shame he never framed it like that and constantly allied with all the wrong people turning himself into the very thing he thought he was fighting against without realizing it. It leaves one with the impression the man is simply off his rocker.

[dragonflight288]

A shame he never framed it like that and constantly allied with all the wrong people turning himself into the very thing he thought he was fighting against without realizing it. It leaves one with the impression the man is simply off his rocker.

 

Loghain: Everything I have done has been to secure Ferelden's independence. I have not shirked my duty to the throne, and neither shall any of you!

 

It's true that this can be better stated, and Teagan sort of forced the issue with his own comments, and the whole exchange made Loghain look abrupt and like a man seizing power but let's face reality. At this point, the King is dead, Maric had not recognized any other heir, as such, legally and by tradition, the rule naturally passes to Anora. Loghain is endorsed by the Queen, who already maintains the throne, Loghain is trying to rebuild the army and take the fight back to the darkspawn, and a bunch of nobles, whether seeking power in the vacuum since Cailan's death or those who felt Loghain was a traitor decided that fighting him was more important than fighting the darkspawn, thus forced Loghain to deal with them before he could face the darkspawn, created a civil war where nearly all sides have valid points. Loghain had crappy allies like Howe, but he soundly defeates the rebelling nobles, who are in essence going against their queen, and thus are shirking their own duty to the throne and divided Ferelden.

 

Loghain has some responsibility in that, but so does Teagan, and every other noble who decided it was a better idea to fight each other than unite and fight the darkspawn. 

 

Loghain's faults are that he sees Orlais as the greater danger, his experience with Duncan's predecessor has colored his opinion on the Wardens already beyond them coming from Orlais, and he's a really crappy politician and rubbed the bannorn the wrong way, which he probably was already doing by being born a commoner and raised to be a Teyrn, one of two in Ferelden and it galled them that a farmer's son was now higher than them.

 

I can fully understand seeing him off his rocker, as I said earlier, in nearly every playthrough until my most recent one, I had killed Loghain, then I took the time to listen to what he actually had to say, listened to his banter, his dialogue in Return to Ostagar with Wynne is very poignant, and I have come to like and respect him as a result of taking the time to look at Ostagar and his need for a retreat and how Cailan pretty much was adamant on fighting on the front lines for glory and completely disregarded all notion of responsibility for his country.

 

And it makes even less sense when his bodyguard who lets us know about the key says Cailan knew the battle was lost but chose to place himself in direct danger on the front lines anyway.

[DarthGizka]

You are playing very fast and loose with the facts. Have you even read any of the discussion here, or the info in the wiki?

[TEWR]

You are playing very fast and loose with the facts.

 

Whether this is directed at myself or dragonflight, the answer's the same: Not really.

 

And the wiki is hardly a bastion of objectivity and is hardly a credible source. The data put in there comes from players who are quick to slap in their own bias as well, unless it's an article for codexes.

 

That's about all the wiki's good for. The rest is reference material.

[DarthGizka]

LOL, no wonder that these topics drag on forever, with so many people who simply won't - or can't - read.

[dragonflight288]

But TEWR and my points still stand and are perfectly valid. 

[theskymoves]

<snip>

 

It's true that this can be better stated, and Teagan sort of forced the issue with his own comments, and the whole exchange made Loghain look abrupt and like a man seizing power but let's face reality. At this point, the King is dead, Maric had not recognized any other heir, as such, legally and by tradition, the rule naturally passes to Anora. Loghain is endorsed by the Queen, who already maintains the throne, Loghain is trying to rebuild the army and take the fight back to the darkspawn, and a bunch of nobles, whether seeking power in the vacuum since Cailan's death or those who felt Loghain was a traitor decided that fighting him was more important than fighting the darkspawn, thus forced Loghain to deal with them before he could face the darkspawn, created a civil war where nearly all sides have valid points. Loghain had crappy allies like Howe, but he soundly defeates the rebelling nobles, who are in essence going against their queen, and thus are shirking their own duty to the throne and divided Ferelden.

 

<more snip>

 

As I understand it, beginning with the founding of Ferelden in 5:42 Exalted, until Cailan's death, and apart from the Orlesian occupation, the throne of Ferelden was held by an unbroken line of Calenhad's descendants, chosen by the Landsmeet. If I am wrong in that understanding, can you please provide a citation or some other evidence for the bit I've bolded, as regards Fereldan tradition and laws of succession? Thanks in advance for your clarification.

[Deathsaurer]

Loghain: Everything I have done has been to secure Ferelden's independence. I have not shirked my duty to the throne, and neither shall any of you!

 

 

 

That isn't in any way saying he left Cailan because he messed up the plan, the signal was late, and the horde was bigger than expected. It comes off as a guy trying to BS his way through a screw up. Had he come clean right from the start the mess wouldn't have happened. Instead he did everything wrong. Try to use the Wardens as scape goats, poison someone he knows will disagree, ally with all the worst wrong people, sell people into slavery etc. How is anyone supposed to take him seriously after that?

 

He could have made a decent argument and gotten everyone to work together. He could have been the great hero again. But he decided to be a confrontational douche that gave all the people that opposed him every reason to do so. And in the end that's all on him.

[DarthGizka]

@ theskymoves

 

A while back the same question came up in another thread, and I went through all Origins codex and other sources with a fine-toothed comb. The only relevant bits that I could find were tradition - the unbroken line of succession that you mentioned - and that the Landsmeet can 'override the king on any matter of law', whatever that might mean. There was no direct mention of the Landsmeet choosing the king either, except for some indirect/circumstantial corroboration (e.g. the king using the Landsmeet to butter up his lords).

[Mykel54]

Alistair´s claim was shaky only because he was an unrecognised bastard from Maric, if he had been a recognised bastard, then he could have taken the throne way more easily. In medieval and modern europe, a royal bastard who is not recognised by the king is no one, not even a noble on it´s own right. He is just one dude that claims to be born from a king.

 

There are two ways of gaining the throne in Ferelden, the old one and the modern one. The modern one is simply being heir to the Theirin dinasty and at the same time convincing the nobles to support you in the landsmeet. The old one was gathering enough supporters and convincing (mostly forcefully) the others members of the Landsmeet to support you. This is what Calenhad did: he beat up all the teyrns and lords while allowing them to keep their lands, and had them proclaim him as king in the Landsmeet.

 

Alistair claimed he was from the Theirin bloodline, but this was far from enough, and most did not believe him, even DA2 codex entry says that many still doubt that he is truly a Theirin. He gained his throne mostly by force and coercion, making Eamon and the Warden help him get the support of as many Landsmeet members as possible, even his codex entry in DAO says that he gained the throne with a lot of help.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As I understand it, beginning with the founding of Ferelden in 5:42 Exalted, until Cailan's death, and apart from the Orlesian occupation, the throne of Ferelden was held by an unbroken line of Calenhad's descendants, chosen by the Landsmeet. If I am wrong in that understanding, can you please provide a citation or some other evidence for the bit I've bolded, as regards Fereldan tradition and laws of succession? Thanks in advance for your clarification.

The law of succession is that the Landsmeet chooses the next king, though that has always come to the same thing as if it was a hereditary monarchy. Technically this means that Anora isn't legally in charge either, since she and Loghain essentially appointed each other. (Unless she was voted in offscreen shortly before Loghain and Teagan had it out, which is technically possible but which we have no evidence for.) However, as I've previously mentioned, everyone's assumption until Alistair comes along seems to be that Anora is the queen. The templar's sister, Bann Alfstanna, is even confused that Eamon feels the need to bring up the question given her faith in Anora.

 

 

Alistair´s claim was shaky only because he was an unrecognised bastard from Maric, if he had been a recognised bastard, then he could have taken the throne way more easily. In medieval and modern europe, a royal bastard who is not recognised by the king is no one, not even a noble on it´s own right. He is just one dude that claims to be born from a king.

Being a recognized bastard doesn't help much in a lot of societies. English law, which I think Ferelden law is based on, has the legal term "naturally dead" to refer to illegitimate children as concerns the line of succession. (Somewhat less relevantly, it refers to anyone who was ever Catholic.) And while Ferelden law and tradition isn't as clear-cut as all that, Ceorlic says that he'd rather see the throne diverted to the Mac Tirs than to a bastard and isn't challenged. (His conversational partner even seems to share his opinion.)

[Dabrikishaw]

I think Loghain should die. If not for Ostagar or starting a civil war than selling elves to Tevinter. 

[dragonflight288]

That isn't in any way saying he left Cailan because he messed up the plan, the signal was late, and the horde was bigger than expected. It comes off as a guy trying to BS his way through a screw up. Had he come clean right from the start the mess wouldn't have happened. Instead he did everything wrong. Try to use the Wardens as scape goats, poison someone he knows will disagree, ally with all the worst wrong people, sell people into slavery etc. How is anyone supposed to take him seriously after that?

 

He could have made a decent argument and gotten everyone to work together. He could have been the great hero again. But he decided to be a confrontational douche that gave all the people that opposed him every reason to do so. And in the end that's all on him.

 

He could've, easily. But he's a crappy politician. He was raised a commoner, became best friends with a King who never set foot inside a castle, and was made a Teyrn. Even the soldiers at Ostagar bring it up as if they have a hard time getting over it. 

 

We can could've, would've or should've's all day, but I have come to like and respect Loghain and can understand where he was coming from. I still hold him accountable for selling elves into slavery and poisoning Eamon, those are two things I feel are unjustifiable, but I get where Loghain is coming from.

 

I've come to like him, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he did. Kind of like Zevran and how he killed Reena, she told him she loved him, he said he didn't care and it didn't matter and slit her throat, and felt guilty about it later when he learned the truth. I don't like it, and I don't think Zevran should've done it. And I'm pretty sure if I knew some of the details of what Leliana has done as a Bard, I would be angry about those as well. 

 

Loghain is just a man, he's made mistakes, many of them affected the entire nation negatively, but I can get where he's coming from even though I don't agree with a lot of it. He makes no apologies, he can deconstruct a threat, and he doesn't back down from volunteering to sacrifice his life, and he faces execution by Warden or by Alistair without complaint, even tries to comfort his daughter knowing full well he's going to die and he does not protest. 

 

He's not a good man, and may not always be honorable, but he is a decent man with good intentions, skill, and is no worse than the Warden can be, or even the Warden's companions. 

[Deathsaurer]

It's not that he's a bad politician it's that he's a callous idiot. He's only good at one thing, fighting a war. Wait let me amend that. He's only good a fighting a war against Orlais. The problem with this is he's convinced himself he's the only one that can save Ferelden and everything he does is for the greater good. As a result he is no better than Orlais so I ask what difference does it make who is running the country? I bet the elves really wouldn't care. That said I already said I didn't want to kill him but I didn't trust him either. I wanted to throw him in prison as a reminder to everyone that gets called a hero what can happen to them if they let their ego get the best of them. You can very easily end up becoming the very thing you're fighting when you convince yourself you actions are the best option. Sometimes you need to step back and admit you're out of your depth. Something Loghain was unable to do.

[VucraTheGreat]

When it comes down to it I am a Grey Warden, burdened by my duty to save the whole Land. Duncan has saved my life, and though my character is far from a morally correct person, this is a debt that must be repayed. 

 

All I'done was to secure the victory agains the Blight, that's my mission and everything else is seconday. When faced with the choice between Alistair and Loghain, who should I rather have fighting at my side? 

 

Alistair - The bastard that rejects any responsability and whose sense of political correctness clouds sometimes his choices.

 

Loghain - An experienced General, of proven skill and combat ability. The Hero of River Dane.

 

The choice is easy - All I want is to end the blight, and when it comes down to it, I will sacrifice whatever it takes to get the job done.

[Elhanan]

Loghain lost the title as a tactician at Ostegar. Either he purposely left his King to die, or he failed to consider the strength of his enemy. He continues to listen to advice from Howe, hires assassins to kill the remaining Wardens as unneeded (wrong again), hires a Blood mage to poison Eamon, etc, etc, etc.

While I do recommend to allowing him to live at least once to gain deeper insight to his past and mind, he has certainly earned the privilege to die at the hands of the Wardens.

[TEWR]

LOL, no wonder that these topics drag on forever, with so many people who simply won't - or can't - read.

 

I mean, we're using what's presented not only by the games but by Word of God. All you're doing is saying "THE WIKI IS RIGHT, SUCKERS!!!" and not accepting that it's hardly objective.

 

Kinda doesn't make you a serious contributor to these discussions.