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[Xetykins]

You know, in this whole Loghain charade, it doesn't bother me the fact that people blame him for his actions and resent him from that. But it does bother me how some people make a point of oversimplifying the situations he get himself into and that he causes. And how people also handwave the blame that other individuals also held.

Believe me, its no more frustrating than watching people bend over back to front, left and right to humanize his inhumane actions imo.

I guess thats the beauty of this game. Either you can stomach things he's done or not. Nevertheless, everyone is right.

[Jaison1986]

Believe me, its no more frustrating than watching people bend over back to front, left and right to humanize his inhumane actions imo.

I guess thats the beauty of this game. Either you can stomach things he's done or not. Nevertheless, everyone is right.

 

A fair point. I for one don't try to humanize him for anything. I just see the reasoning of what he did (most of it anyway). And even when I recruit him, I know I'm offering him no mercy. I lived as an warden, I know exactly what expects him. You can actually say that to him at camp "This is your punishment, life as an Grey warden". That's my opinion about the whole recruit Loghain ordeal anyway.

[Mike3207]

The best way I can put it-bad things happen to good people in civil wars.One example-President Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeus Corpus in the Civil War.If Loghain had succeeded, he would have been named a hero, and everyone in the Warden's party would have been killed.All that matters in a civil war is being on the winning side.

[Xetykins]

The best way I can put it-bad things happen to good people in civil wars.One example-President Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeus Corpus in the Civil War.If Loghain had succeeded, he would have been named a hero, and everyone in the Warden's party would have been killed.All that matters in a civil war is being on the winning side.

Not always true. Spending early childhood during a martial law declared by the president in response to civil war ( although minor) did not make that president a hero but a murdering tyrant. He continued his antics until the whole country went on uprising and he got disposed of in pretty much a couple of hours without blood shed. He had never ever been labeled a hero in any shape or form. During his term ive watched powerful military men do anything they want without repercussions. Thats the reason why I could never give loghain the time of the day.

[TEWR]

Is it so hard to believe that the nobles, specially Teagan reacted the way he did because of their strong principles, honor or sense of justice that Loghain lacks

 

I never said Teagan wasn't acting on strong principles. In fact, if you reread what I wrote, it's clear that I think Teagan was acting out of a sense of altruism. I said that other nobility were acting out of discontentment because Loghain's a commoner-turned-Teyrn. Or do you think that Teagan is the only Bann in the nation standing against Loghain? Just because he's the only one who stands up to Loghain in the cutscene does not make him representative of the entire Bannorn that are fighting against Loghain and aren't even united militarily.

 

All told, it's short-sighted altruism all the same because there's an invasion of Darkspawn to deal with -- one Loghain himself admits is the immediate concern in the very same scene -- and Teagan picks that time to antagonize the man, fan the flames of a civil war, and everything else.

 

Is he acting on strong principles? Yes. Are his priorities skewed at the same time? Yes.

 

Again though, I also hold Loghain partially accountable for how things played out post-Ostagar leading up to the civil war, because his comments were far too direct and carried with them antagonistic tendencies that sounded far too much like Orlais' demands.

 

I think he was in the right, but I think his methods were very ******-poor.

[DarthGizka]

Loghain tried to command the bannorn as if he were the lord of the manor. In fact it's the other way around. He is just furniture, and when all is said and done even the king/queen has to give account to the lords (Landsmeet). Teagan did nothing more than call Loghain on his delusions.

[Deathsaurer]

The politics are meaningless to me. I've seen the army. I know it's a helluva lot bigger than anyone realized. Like so big we're utterly screwed. I know we logically need Orlais' help. I saw the Archdemon leading the march. And I know Loghain wouldn't listen to a thing I have to say because he's already branded me an enemy and tried to kill me. This is all before I know it takes a Grey Warden to kill the Archdemon. Loghain is simply in the way. Everything he has done, whether he realizes it or intended it, is setting Ferelden up for failure. He picked up the idiot ball and ran with it. The fact that he didn't royally screw everyone over is pure luck.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain tried to command the bannorn as if he were the lord of the manor. In fact it's the other way around. He is just furniture, and when all is said and done even the king/queen has to give account to the lords (Landsmeet). Teagan did nothing more than call Loghain on his delusions.

Yes, but at a rather problematic time. This was exactly when Ferelden needed to be united. For all that Loghain misunderstood the situation in ways that were variously his fault and the fault of others, he at least understood that better than the Bannorn did. Things ended up working out best this way for reasons that neither Teagan nor Loghain understood at the time, but that doesn't mean Teagan's move was a smart reaction to what he knew at the time.

[Deathsaurer]

It was, however, the only way to get Loghain to stop making a mess of things. I had enough problems without having to deal with the crap he was throwing at me for no reason. Especially after Orzammar.

[TEWR]

Eh to be fair Imrek made that call as well as you. If you're telling him that you two can settle this in a fight, he obliges. Kinda makes you the aggressor when, really, he's just gonna head back to Loghain.

 

Imrek's a douche and an idiot, but he doesn't attack you unprovoked. So to really blame Loghain for a decision you made and that Imrek agrees to is rather out of it in my view.

[dragonflight288]

I have come to believe, as I once had before taking the time to listen to Loghain, that many of us have our views of Loghain skewed by Alistair's comments at Flemeth's hut after Ostagar. I mean Alistair thinks Loghain wants the throne, and lays all the blame on Loghain. 

 

It also doesn't help that Loghain pretty much puts a bounty on our heads from that moment on, and the soldiers left behind in Lothering made a very poor impression. 

 

But bear in mind, Loghain had been actively arguing with Cailan for days, not only on Orlesian support but also on Cailan being on the battlefield. Cailan was getting really annoyed that Loghain told him point blank that he shouldn't be playing hero and that it was too dangerous. The soldiers, both Cailan's guard and Loghain's, each acknowledge this fact. 

 

Loghain also has been confirmed by the lead writer that he wasn't planning on abandoning Cailan.

 

Loghain is a poor public speaker and lousy politican, and came across as if he were giving orders to the bannorn, which likely rubbed them the wrong way. Add in the fact that even the soldiers at Ostagar are having a very hard time getting over the fact that he was a commoner who had been elevated to one of the highest of noblemen in Ferelden, one of only two teyrns in the country. If it rubbed common soldiers the wrong way, you can bet every sovereign you can make in the game that it most certainly bothered a lot of nobles who had been nobles for generations. 

 

The codex also makes it clear that while some banns, like Teagan, were in it for altruistic reasons to oppose Loghain, most were trying to take advantage of the power vacuum. 

 

The gossipers makes it very clear that Loghain wins nearly every battle, and those he loses are the ones the Warden participates in or are in areas that get swallowed up by the blight by the lords who successfully won, but no longer had the strength to fight the darkspawn. And by the time the landsmeet occurs, Loghain has pretty much won the civil war, but people were now worried about the increasingly obvious darkspawn threat, and the fact that Ferelden no longer really had the strength to fight a blight. This can't all be blamed on Loghain because he only fought those who, from the scene with Howe on how the nobles were gathering there forces to fight each other instead of the darkspawn (the scene where he hires Zevran,) because every noble who decided to fight in the civil war share in the blame as well. 

 

Poisoning Eamon by hiring a blood mage, selling elves into slavery, and so on I won't bother trying to defend because he's clearly guilty in those situations, but I no longer can simply hate or blame Loghain for every single bad thing that happens in the game, as far as Ferelden is concerned.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I have come to believe, as I once had before taking the time to listen to Loghain, that many of us have our views of Loghain skewed by Alistair's comments at Flemeth's hut after Ostagar. I mean Alistair thinks Loghain wants the throne, and lays all the blame on Loghain. 

 

It also doesn't help that Loghain pretty much puts a bounty on our heads from that moment on, and the soldiers left behind in Lothering made a very poor impression. 

I noticed the trap of non-thinking that Flemeth and Alistair were setting at the time (due to the glaring contrast between what Alistair said after the ogre died and what he said after Cailan died) but that trap was so well followed up by variously legitimately messed-up actions on Loghain's part that I forgot about it shortly into the game.

[Deathsaurer]

Eh to be fair Imrek made that call as well as you. If you're telling him that you two can settle this in a fight, he obliges. Kinda makes you the aggressor when, really, he's just gonna head back to Loghain.

 

Imrek's a douche and an idiot, but he doesn't attack you unprovoked. So to really blame Loghain for a decision you made and that Imrek agrees to is rather out of it in my view.

No I mean seeing the Dark Spawn army. There really is no time for this political BS. It was like an endless tide of them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No I mean seeing the Dark Spawn army. There really is no time for this political BS. It was like an endless tide of them.

But what I was saying with the point you originally responded to with this argument is that Loghain can say the same to Teagan.

[Deathsaurer]

Teagan didn't put a bounty on my head and refuse immediate aid. That's ultimately what it comes down to. Allying with Howe certainly didn't help since I played human noble. If I could have reasoned with Loghain after what I saw I certainly would have but he clearly was never interested in what I had to say.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Teagan didn't put a bounty on my head and refuse immediate aid. That's ultimately what it comes down to. Allying with Howe certainly didn't help since I played human noble. If I could have reasoned with Loghain after what I saw I certainly would have but he clearly was never interested in what I had to say.

All of which is fair.

[Deathsaurer]

Well I'm not an unfair person. It was quite annoying how everyone staked out their corners while I get to watch the nightmare play out in front of me. But from a practical standpoint I saw that we needed help from Orlais and Loghain's complaints about them are peanuts compared to the Dark Spawn. And if I couldn't reason with him he needed to be removed from power so we could get that aid. That everything worked out without it is nothing short of a miracle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I say let your dog decide Loghains fate. After all the mabari loghain sent to they're deaths, its only fitting the dog decides Loghains fate.

Putting aside the impossibility of doing that due to game mechanics and the very real possibility you wouldn't like the result (Loghain does successfully charm the dog, though to a lesser extent than you did) we're not given any indication that that part was Loghain's idea.

[ctd757]

I always kill Loghain he us a traitor.

[Mike3207]

I say let your dog decide Loghains fate. After all the mabari loghain sent to they're deaths, its only fitting the dog decides Loghains fate.

I think there's a very good chance that Cailan was the one who came up with the Ostagar battle plan, including sending out the mabari.It's pretty clear Cailan is the one running things if you closely watch the meeting before Ostagar.

[HiroVoid]

Plot that didn't make into the game, but was considered for a long time: Cailan was going to abandon Anora for Celene.  In this way, he would have been seen as betraying both Anora and Ferelden to Loghain. 

 

This is why he was originally going to have Cailan killed in the original game, and this was likely still the plot when all of Ostagar was made.  Since this plot was abandoned, Loghain no longer had any motivation to want Cailan dead, so the actual events that happened in the game was that Loghain, Duncan, and the others underestimated the darkspawns' power, and Loghain felt it was better to retreat than to have all his men dying to try to save the king who may have already died.