3201 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

That's the second time I heard of this. Where is this in the game? I feel like I'm missing so much in DAO. I played it a dozen times an known nothing about Cailan except his relation with Alistair.

In the 'Return to Ostagar' dlc, you can learn that Cailan was planning on leaving Anora for Celene which would have meant he'd left Anora and if I've heard correctly in regards to the latest novel, would mean that Ferelden would have been used to fight a war with Orlais against Nevarra.  Technically, the plot is still there, it's just that Loghain doesn't actually know about it in Origins where in a previous version of the game while it was being made had it as his motivation for the events of Ostagar.

[TEWR]

I think there's a very good chance that Cailan was the one who came up with the Ostagar battle plan, including sending out the mabari.It's pretty clear Cailan is the one running things if you closely watch the meeting before Ostagar.

 

Well, it was Loghain's plan that Cailan would lure the Darkspawn to him and when they were all committed the tower's signal would be lit, telling Loghain to charge and surround the horde. Unfortunately, Cailan decided it would be a good idea to launch only one volley of arrows into the horde and ordered his hounds to charge out into the open when they're really better suited as support troops. As if that wasn't bad enough, he then orders the men to charge out into the open, thus exposing their flanks when the walls of Ostagar were protecting them and risking a double envelopment (this, of course, happens after the Darkspawn are already charging towards Cailan. So running to meet them was pointless).

 

So Cailan's the one at fault for the Mabari deaths. He was the one in charge of that specific contingent of soldiers.

 

Ostagar itself was a clusterfuck of blame to go around.

[dragonflight288]

In the 'Return to Ostagar' dlc, you can learn that Cailan was planning on leaving Anora for Celene which would have meant he'd left Anora and if I've heard correctly in regards to the latest novel, would mean that Ferelden would have been used to fight a war with Orlais against Nevarra.  Technically, the plot is still there, it's just that Loghain doesn't actually know about it in Origins where in a previous version of the game while it was being made had it as his motivation for the events of Ostagar.

 

Well, it's more or less implied. The three letters, one from Eamon urging Cailan to set aside Anora because no heir had been born, and two letters to Celene, one of them in overly familiar tones and not what you'd expect from two monarchs discussing an alliance, but two people who are really close. 

[Xetykins]

Ostagar discussion is moot as we dont know the numbers, even vague idea of the ratio. So we work with whatever we've been given and what we saw.

People can throw as much logic behind whatever. But at the end of the day its all up to people's interpretations on that event. Cut scenes, convos etc.

[TEWR]

Well, you can see how far the horde extends just from standing on the bridge. All the way into the ass-end of the Wilds.

 

 

We also know that at any given time during a Blight, there are at least 100 Ogres (living siege weapons). If you stand upon the higher part of Ostagar on the right hand side you can see that boulders are being flung at the fortress every couple of seconds. That's representative of the Ogres. They're being flung far too quickly to just be from one ogre.

 

We also know that the Darkspawn have hundreds of Emissaries and magic is capable of easily dispatching soldiers. I'm willing to bet if one were to pause at the Ostagar cinematic and look at the horde you'd easily see the different Emissaries, Genlock or Hurlock.

 

But beyond that, it's not just a matter of numbers. We know the numbers of the horde are practically limitless and they do tend to just go Zerg Rush to try and overwhelm by sheer force of numbers. But it's also about understanding how the Darkspawn fight. A single berserking Hurlock is enough for multiple opponents at any given time (the codex). Magic is powerful. Ogres are living siege weapons.

 

With what resources Ferelden had available, which is to say a whole lot of soldiers and not enough mages, there wasn't a chance. Not with how the battle played out anyhow, with all the blunders made on the part of Ferelden.

 

That's not to say the presence of Mages alone would've been enough to turn the tide, but it sure as hell wouldn't have hurt and given how with more troops available it necessitates different strategies to fully utilize them all, Ostagar could've been won.

[TEWR]

Also, as Loghain points out (and can be verified if you pay close attention) he lost men as well in that battle, to say nothing of Cailan's death which he mourns. There are men with shields with Gwaren heraldry.

 

A lot of people like to say, and have said, "He just wanted to kill them all!" which is just... not the case.

[DarthGizka]

Well, it was Loghain's plan that Cailan would lure the Darkspawn to him and when they were all committed the tower's signal would be lit, telling Loghain to charge and surround the horde. Unfortunately, Cailan decided it would be a good idea <snip>

Impressive. While we're still trying to figure out what was going on and how to weigh the scarse, contradictory evidence, you not only know exactly what happened but also what people were thinking. Maybe we shouldn't get tied down by facts or the hobgoblin of little minds either...

FWIW, background visuals and cinematics are probably the least reliable evidence of all as regards things other than contained dialogue and overall event sequence. In the same vein as towers that are incredibly tall, slender spires from the outside but very short and squat from the inside. Or an archdemon who mind-broadcasts live video of himself as seen by someone else. He must have been using a darkspawn as webcam and re-broadcasting the signal.

Nice picture, though. I like it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What are you talking about? The dog could of decided Loghains fate if it weren't for Eamon. I literally tried this but Eamon doesn't feel comfortable putting the fate of ferelden in the paws of a mabari. My dog barked happily when I nominated him to face Loghain. After all, he was trained to kill Loghain.

In which context it's rather surprising how easily Loghain becomes friends with him if you don't kill him.

[Xetykins]

Wow. Seems like you got the maths down to the nearest hundreds. How could anyone argue with that? O.o Jusy one thing tho, there was probably see 3 ogiers at ostagar.

[dragonflight288]

Wow. Seems like you got the maths down to the nearest hundreds. How could anyone argue with that? O.o Jusy one thing tho, there was probably see 3 ogiers at ostagar.

 

So only three ogres, one of them already inside the tower of ishal, is capable of throwing all those boulders onto the bride as we're crossing in such quick succession? Darkspawn lore makes it clear that they don't have catapults, ogres throw the boulders like a catapult would. 

 

We may only see two or three on screen, but there has to be more than that to account for the sheer number of boulders thrown, although ogres are apparently so rare that I don't think that horde would have a few hundred, probably several dozen in that initial wave that broke through the Kokari Wilds. 

 

It's still the equivalent of several dozen catapults that have the capability to fight back in close quarters. 

[Xetykins]

So only three ogres, one of them already inside the tower of ishal, is capable of throwing all those boulders onto the bride as we're crossing in such quick succession? Darkspawn lore makes it clear that they don't have catapults, ogres throw the boulders like a catapult would. 
 
We may only see two or three on screen, but there has to be more than that to account for the sheer number of boulders thrown, although ogres are apparently so rare that I don't think that horde would have a few hundred, probably several dozen in that initial wave that broke through the Kokari Wilds. 
 
It's still the equivalent of several dozen catapults that have the capability to fight back in close quarters.

You missed my point. Since were posting pics, its screenshot or it didnt happen.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You missed my point. Since were posting pics, its screenshot or it didnt happen.

Or someone could replay the Battle and we could see how many rocks were flying. (Though I do seem to remember a number inconsistent with a mere three ogres.)

 

Edit: Actually, it's on Youtube. http://youtu.be/4aKw88GEvFw?t=15m57s

 

We see one boulder flying at the lower walls, then three in the air almost simultaneously at a higher elevation, and a fifth quickly after at the same. From there boulders hit the bridge semi-regularly. In fairness to those who are trying to argue for minimal ogre presence, that doesn't strike me as needing much more than three ogres (heck, four might do it if they're really applying themselves), but at the same time I don't think three is sufficient. At any rate you can't use what you didn't see as evidence that there was nothing off-screen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence any more than it is of presence.

[DarthGizka]

Yes, but we are talking about someone who pulled at least 100 ogres out of his ass.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, but we are talking about someone who pulled at least 100 ogres out of his ass.

He said the Archdemon could have fielded that many at any one battle. He didn't say they were all present at that one. Nor does his point strictly require that many to be there. Ogres are freaking dangerous. Just ask Cailan. And I don't think they're the most dangerous thing there against normal soldiers; that would probably be the emissaries. (Or maybe the archers, if the spawn have enough of them.)

[Xetykins]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence any more than it is of presence? Hmm I could be really a biatch and be specific about things too. Like, have you looked at how high it was from the bridge to the bottom? Could any ogiers throw that far? I dont see any ogiers on the oposite mountain either. So it could be the ogier on the tower? The bombardment was too fast and the stones too big and the tower still almost intact.. crazy right?

But that was not what I meant. If I had no ineractions with loghain before his retreat, I would argue that it was a tactical retreat. And it could be. But his intentions of not seeing through his own tactics before the battle? I'd argue but only a little cuz again i've no hard confirmation on the odds during that battle without the archdemon leading them. This is the reason why I said ostagar was open to interpretation. And why I never bring that part of the game up. Its loghains post ostagar antics ive got stronger opinions on. Specially when he said he was saddened by the loss of his men. He probably throw them to the darkspawn for special effects and look better to the survivors, because his actions after screams that for him, life is cheap. And even cheaper when it benefits him.

Anyway football time with my pint of hagen daas.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence any more than it is of presence? Hmm I could be really a biatch and be specific about things too. Like, have you looked at how high it was from the bridge to the bottom? Could any ogiers throw that far? I dont see any ogiers on the oposite mountain either. So it could be the ogier on the tower? The bombardment was too fast and the stones too big and the tower still almost intact.. crazy right?

But that was not what I meant. If I had no ineractions with loghain before his retreat, I would argue that it was a tactical retreat. And it could be. But his intentions of not seeing through his own tactics before the battle? I'd argue but only a little cuz again i've no hard confirmation on the odds during that battle without the archdemon leading them. This is the reason why I said ostagar was open to interpretation. And why I never bring that part of the game up. Its loghains post ostagar antics ive got stronger opinions on. Specially when he said he was saddened by the loss of his men. He probably throw them to the darkspawn for special effects and look better to the survivors, because his actions after screams that for him, life is cheap. And even cheaper when it benefits him.

Anyway football time with my pint of hagen daas.

Well, since the stuff you have strong opinions on is the stuff I'm willing to concede was pretty horrible on his part, I'd say we can just call this argument moot.

[TEWR]

Impressive. While we're still trying to figure out what was going on and how to weigh the scarse, contradictory evidence, you not only know exactly what happened but also what people were thinking. Maybe we shouldn't get tied down by facts or the hobgoblin of little minds either...

FWIW, background visuals and cinematics are probably the least reliable evidence of all as regards things other than contained dialogue and overall event sequence. In the same vein as towers that are incredibly tall, slender spires from the outside but very short and squat from the inside. Or an archdemon who mind-broadcasts live video of himself as seen by someone else. He must have been using a darkspawn as webcam and re-broadcasting the signal.

Nice picture, though. I like it.

 

Picture's not mine. I borrowed it from KnightofPhoenix's blog post about the tactics of Ostagar, and he had borrowed said picture from IIRC Monica21.

 

Now my comp's lagging so I'm going to post what I typed out before I went off to work and then reboot/edit to get everything I wanna say in here.

 

It's pretty cut and dry. Loghain says "lure the Darkspawn". Luring means bringing them to you. The cinematic shows the Darkspawn have no problem coming to the soldiers on their own. Cailan then goes "Archers!", and they fire one volley. Then he sends out the hounds, who end up taking at best one or two Darkspawn before becoming chow for them when Mabari are noted as being great support troops. They're great front-line fighters for enemies that can actually show fear, like humans, but against Darkspawn who only get "afraid" (and I use that loosely) when a Blight's over... not so much.

 

And of course you'd say "Well, this isn't reliable at all!". We'll just go with what you deem credible from the game, then. I mean clearly, the cinematics and background visuals are just our imagination. It couldn't possibly be that they might actually represent things in a genuine fashion.

 

But I guess if we're to take cinematics and background visuals as not being reliable, then that cinematic showing the horde in the Deep Roads is just a bit of needless fluff.

[TEWR]

Yes, but we are talking about someone who pulled at least 100 ogres out of his ass.

 

Reading comprehension is your friend, mate. I said that there can be that many in the horde at any time including Ostagar, not that there was that many at Ostagar as some sort of objective fact. We have no means to verify how many there were, but it's safe to say it was probably more then just a few.

-

But incase you need more then that:

 

 

Ogre

Towering over their darkspawn kin, the massive ogres are a rare sight on the battlefield. Traditionally, they only appear during a Blight, but some records claim that ogres have been spotted in the Deep Roads hunting alone or in small groups. At least one report by the Grey Wardens claims that an ogre was spotted alone in the Korcari Wilds in 9:19 Dragon, though it was weakened and easily dispatched. Up to a hundred of these creatures can accompany a darkspawn horde at any one time during a Blight, often using their great strength to burst through fortifications and demolish the front lines of the opposing army.

 

They use brute force to charge their enemies like bulls, slam the ground with their fists to shake enemies off their feet, and hurl great rocks into the face of oncoming foes. Melee can be difficult against a giant that snatches a warrior up in one hand, crushing the life out of him or beating him into oblivion with the other hand. The nimble can try to wiggle his way free, or an ally can attempt an array of stunning blows on an ogre to free the comrade in danger.

 

Grey Warden lore urges caution when slaying an ogre. Unless it is ensured that they have received a major wound to the head or the heart, it is possible that they are lying dormant and will regenerate to full health within a matter of minutes. During a Blight, most Grey Wardens recommend burning all darkspawn to ashes... "dead" ogres in particular.

 

 

Bolding mine.

 

And then there's the other codexes pertaining to the strength of the horde, which I'll edit in simply for the sake of full understanding. As I said earlier, one also needs to understand how the horde fights:

 

 

Broodmother

It is well-known that darkspawn carry off those captured in their raids to underground lairs. Most assume that the prisoners are eaten, or somehow tainted and turned into darkspawn themselves, though this could never account for the sheer numbers of the horde. Forays made by Grey Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer.

 

When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and eventually die. Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish. Those that survive, however, become the grotesque broodmothers. These giant, twisted behemoths birth many darkspawn at a time; a single broodmother can create thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime. Each type of darkspawn is born from a different broodmother: Humans produce hurlocks, dwarves produce genlocks, elves give birth to shrieks, and from Qunari are born the ogres.

 

 

 

Hurlock (DAO and DAII)

 

Taller than their genlock cousins, the hurlocks are roughly of human-size but are possessed of considerable strength and constitution. The shock troop of the darkspawn, a single berserking hurlock can often be a match for numerous opponents at once. They are known to adorn themselves with roughly-carved tattoos to keep track of their kills and deeds, though it is unknown whether or not there is a uniform standard to these markings.

 

Alphas
Alpha hurlocks are more intelligent and more skilled fighters, often serving as commanders or even generals.

 

Emissaries
Hurlock emissaries have also been known to appear during a Blight. These darkspawn are the only ones recorded as being capable of human speech and are often capable of employing magic.

 

The hurlock alpha is more intelligent than the alphas of other darkspawn types. Usually armed with a large, vicious weapon, they have been known to act as commanders on the battlefield, directing and controlling the lesser darkspawn in their strange, brutish way.

 

 

(Genlock, DAO And DAII versions)

The genlock is the most common darkspawn in the underground. They are tough, stocky, and notoriously difficult to kill, since many show at least some resistance to magic. They are creatures of darkness, with keen senses and an intuitive understanding of the deep places that allow them to take even groups of seasoned warriors by surprise. Genlocks are what make traversing the Deep Roads so dangerous—a group of the creatures can easily overwhelm and mercilessly slaughter a small party within minutes.

 

Genlock alphas are stronger and more physically intimidating than most genlocks. They are known for bullying other genlocks into doing their bidding.

 

These are the most common darkspawn in the underground. Stocky and tough, genlocks are notoriously difficult to kill, even by magic.

 

Alphas

 

In any group of genlocks, there is usually one who is dominant. As the tallest, strongest, and smartest of their kind, alphas serve as a sort of commander, directing or bullying the others in combat.

 

Emissaries

 

The most intelligent of the alphas become gifted sorcerers, with many abilities akin to blood magic. These are the emissaries and they usually only appear during a Blight.

 

 

Shriek

Scholars call these tall, lean darkspawn the sharlock, though they are more popularly known as shrieks because of the ear-splitting cries they emit in battle. Many tales exist of soldiers being unnerved by the sounds of approaching shrieks, cloaked in darkness and never seen until the moment they strike.

 

As horrors of the night, shrieks are renowned for their incredible speed and agility as well as their stealth. They are the assassins of the darkspawn, penetrating the enemy lines and striking their targets using long, jagged blades attached to their forearms to rip their opponent to shreds in seconds. They have been known to employ poison, often drawn from their own blood, and have demonstrated cunning group tactics when attacking in numbers.

 

 

Beyond that, we also have an untainted soldier (leastwise the nurse thinks he isn't tainted) that saw the horde with his own eyes and says the army's doomed. On its own, we could take this as just a panicked soldier whose word isn't absolute, but consider Gaider himself said the horde at the battle was far larger then anyone had anticipated (those were his words), the king's guard said Cailan knew battle was a failure even with all his bravado, the image I provided, the fact the horde is still coming in after the signal's been lit, and everything else that supports the grand numbers, well... it's pretty clear.

[Mike3207]

If you check from the vantage points from around the Tower of Ishal, it's clear the boulders being thrown are coming from a bit back in the forest.It's a long way from the forest to the fortress at Ostagar.I don't see any way ogres could throw boulders that far.Actually, i think this part of it was sort of made up by the developers as they went along.

[TEWR]

Well, Darkspawn don't craft their own siege weapons and it's said that the Ogres are the living siege weapons of the Darkspawn. They take them from other people. That's why you see ballistae in the same design as those used by the army at Ostagar, at least from an in-game perspective.

 

Out of game, resources.

 

Theoretically, they could have their own catapults or some other siege weapon to use taken from human lands... but I imagine the trek to take it through the Deep Roads would've been a ******.

 

*imagines a few Genlocks and Hurlocks bitterly complaining about how the Archdemon's an ********

 

Anyway, an entire group of soldiers -- not sure if platoon, squad, or some other term was used -- came into conflict with an Ogre and was decimated, with only two survivors.... and one was minus a leg. He ended up dying from his wounds. Or he was tainted, so the woman said to the other soldier. But then, I imagine deaths of survivors of darkspawn battles are consistently attributed to "the Taint got to him", true or not.

[Xetykins]

Sigh.... if you must continue being specific to the point of copying and pasting walls of text that completely and utterly missed my point by "player's perception", and trying to justify otherwise. Here's my take:. Yet it only took one man with no magic aside from being able to sense darkspawn to kill Cailan's ogier. Or... 2 rookie wardens, a dog straight out from being cured, and 2 stragler soldiers to kill the tower ogier. See? But I reallly dont remember b*tching about that. Not once.

Players dont see the same things. Some just like loghain so much theyre willing to wave the tiny details before the battle. Some dont. And looking at how many people debating this. I think my point stands.

[DarthGizka]

... (pointless wall of text) ...

You seem to have managed some reading, nice. Let us know should you ever get around to the 'comprehension' bit.

Since you seem to take the visuals as gospel, you're lucky - you're the only person who'll ever know exactly how many troops were involved during the Ostagar battle. Hurry onto the bridge, climb on the eastern-most ballista, hop down into the valley and start counting.

Tip: the fingers of your hands let you count up to 1023 instead of 10. Just ask Kitty. You'll be needing your nose or one of your toes as well, since the total troop count (excluding the pre-placed dead) is a bit less than 1500.



It may be difficult to get further into the valley, since there are invisible clipping planes that impede movement. However, with runscript playvfx 10001 you can make the mountain come to the prophet. 10001 is the vfx number for the supposed torch-bearing darkspawn troops that light up the trail; it turns out that there are only sparks and no troops at all, a devious illusion designed to strike fear into the heart of chickens. Below is a list of vfx numbers and how many of them are present in the valley. The relevant code is in prept_generic_actions.nss, in case anyone's curious.

10001:  pre100ip_sa_torches         // ?? x flying sparks  
10004:  pre100ip_sa_darkspawn_army  //  5 x 60 hurlocks
10010:  pre100ip_sa_ogre            //  4 x 1 ogre
10008:  pre100ip_sa_fight_close     // 22 x 25 pairs (attacker + defender)
10003:  pre100ip_sa_good_army       //  0 x 100 hurlocks

Attackers and defenders in the melee vfx are perfectly matched, for a total of 550 on each side. That leaves 300 hurlocks and 4 ogres for Loghain and the people topside to deal with. There are about 30 more darkspawn in the tower that we know of, those who storm onto the top floor and kill Warden + party when they are paralysed by a cutscene*.

As regards hurlocks: everyone who's ever met some knows that they are no better than any human/elven/dwarven fighter. In Gaider's books - since some seem to put stock in what he writes - humans, elves, and dwarves regularly mow down legions of them, just like almost all players except you apparently.

And berserking hurlocks are even less dangerous since the increase in DPS is negligible** but the stamina drain keeps them from using dangerous abilities like Shield Bash, Shield Pummel and so on, once their initial stamina has been drained one way or another. For two-hander hurlocks - like the ones actually called "hurlock berserkers" - the effective loss of DPS is even more drastic than for the weapon & shield hurlocks.

For your delirious soldier who attests that the Ostagar army is doomed I'll give you Alistair, who bears witness that the fight was almost won when Loghain turned tail. That's what I meant with 'contradictory evidence', and why I said that the evidence needs to be weighed.

*) Is there a mod that lets you fight them, per chance? I'd love to wreak horrible vengeance on those buggers.
**) less than 6 dps for longsword and less than 4 four two-handers, assuming a perfect hit rate

[TEWR]

Players dont see the same things. Some just like loghain so much theyre willing to wave the tiny details before the battle. Some dont. And looking at how many people debating this. I think my point stands.

 

Perception's all well and good in terms of roleplaying and of course people won't see the same things. I agree on that.

 

Out of game, we're in the realm of facts. This isn't solely a discussion about what we perceived Loghain as, but rather whether Loghain should live or die. And perception does factor into that, but in so discussing, we end up talking about the things people weigh against him or don't... and thus end up talking about the intricacies of it all. Ostagar being the most prominent, and using what we do know for certain people shouldn't be afraid to admit they may have been wrong in the face of all the logic and facts. But people want to cling to their assertions and not even entertain the thought of other possible factors (me, I entertain a lot of different ideas if they're sensible. Many are and just as many people give aren't).

 

Which happens regardless in anything. Loghain's bound to pop up in any thread and from there it just becomes this discussion all over again.

 

If you perceived him as deserving of death for what he's done, then by all means you can say as much and leave it at that, because there's nothing to discuss there other then how I don't perceive him as deserving of an execution, leastwise in front of his daughter. And I'd refrain from saying my stance on the matter because there'd be no point to it.

 

I won't attempt to dissuade you from that mentality. But when entering a discussion talking about the things he's done and bringing up said things, you can't really say "Stop talking about the details of it all!".

 

And when talking about Ostagar, which is what's been going on here for a while, those details are important. Because this is a discussion, not a suppression of what there is in-game.

 

I'm not trying to keep people from making certain choices. I just discuss the matter because people should see what's going on completely and maybe it'll convince them to try out something else. Or not. I don't particularly care, but I'll always defend Loghain. Same goes for Anora and Merrill and Orsino and a slew of other characters

 

 

 

But I reallly dont remember b*tching about that. Not once.

 

Well, gameplay doesn't equal lore, so it wouldn't be a suitable argument anyway. That's why I don't use Abominations fighting like mindless drunkards as some sort of argument against their in-game lore potential for devastation and the threat they thus pose.

 

So if you took it down easily, good for you. That's not representative of Ogres in general. Duncan managed to take down an Ogre by a surprise attack (and while he was horribly injured at that, giving him a Dying Moment of Awesome). But an entire group of soldiers was easily taken out by one Ogre. That Ogre that killed Cailan easily knocked aside several soldiers and Duncan.

 

But of course, this is all just another "wall of text" so it'll be consigned to being unimportant I bet. Ah well, c'est la vie.

 

 

 

That's what I meant with 'contradictory evidence', and why I said that the evidence needs to be weighed.

 

Our venomous back-and-forth banter aside, that's interesting stuff there.

 

How much of that can be chalked up to engine limitations, I dunno. But I'd find it hard to believe that Loghain's troops, of which we can get a decent look at them from the retreat cinematic (pretty substantial, going into the background) wouldn't charge in there for that many troops. Would end up demeaning the entire premise of the story and make Loghain look like an idiot.

 

But we also have Duncan's estimate (ten thousand), Alistair's estimate (tens of thousands potentially), Word of Gaider, the broodmother lore, 400 years of them rebuilding, and a bit more. In that light, while the evidence does contradict, I'm willing to take the side that has evidence in favor of more Darkspawn then less.

 

Also Alistair didn't exactly take the time to look down at the field after we killed the Ogre. He just said we're probably late and we should light it right away. Course, the windows out there were pretty damn high IIRC (being a re-use of the Circle I think) so how we were supposed to know when the Darkspawn were committed I dunno. And how Alistair could be certain the battle was almost won when he couldn't see the field of battle and didn't look in the first place just makes things silly.

 

So yes, with contradictory evidence (of which I don't think prior to this post you ever really elaborated on, but then I only come on here for like 20 minutes every few hours) does come the need to weigh them between each other, particularly when Bioware doesn't know jackshit about warfare as I've said in the past.

[DarthGizka]

Just wanted to keep you fresh and sharp, and our readers entertained.

 

I think the biggest problems are two: it seems that Gaider never really bothered to work out things beyond the synopsis level (and then he acted all surprised when he found out that people tried to construct a timeline and stuff), and nobody seems to have been responsible for ensuring that all parts of the game - story, codex, conversations, cinematics and so on - give a reasonably consistent picture.

 

Take the hurlocks. The fluff piece in the codex says they are so strong that they can fight several humans (elves, dwarves) at the same time but everywhere else it is always humans (elves, dwarves) who manage to battle multiple darkspawn at a time, including hurlocks, and in general trounce them.

 

The result is a bit of a mess.

 

Regarding the Ostagar battle, we can at best try to reason qualitatively. If the horde was so strong that Loghain's immediate withdrawal was justified - without even trying to cover the retreat of Cailan's contingent - then the threat must have been so big as to be a national problem, not a local one. It is a bit of an unknown how many men he managed to draft (or press) into service but it seems plausible that the horde could not defeated by Loghain's forces alone, that he would need the troops of several lords, or the Orlesians. There's a lot of auxiliary reasoning behind this but that's the gist.

 

In that situation it would have been imperative for Loghain to rally the lords in order to muster sufficient forces, but as we know from the conversation with Anora, he had more pressing business. But  - was it you who mentioned it? - the game needed a villain and so Loghain was made to do what he did. He didn't get a say in the matter.

[gottaloveme]

So - Ostagar. Where is Eamon? Why hasn't Cailan called on him? Loghain perhaps wouldn't advise Cailan to call on Eamon considering his part in Anora being set aside as a barren wife. Surely though, the Redcliffe troops would take a lot of pressure off the soldiers already in place.